Four years ago, my older daughter was identified as gifted at age 6 after her school psychologist administered the WISC IV; she scored a FSIQ of 138 and a GAI of 142 (which were higher with extended norms). She has always been a high achiever, reaching all milestones early, so her scores were not necessarily a surprise.

Her younger sister on the other hand, has always seemed more "normal", (7 year old, 2nd grade) with grade level reading, math etc., but very perceptive and mature, with a wicked sense of humor and a good vocabulary. She was recently given the OLSAT at her elementary school, and scored substantially lower (SAI of only 98). While I don't believe my younger one is gifted, I still thought her results would indicate that she is "bright", rather than average, to below average. It just seems very odd that there would be such a discrepancy between siblings (almost 3 standard deviations!!)

Has anyone had a child that scores substantially lower on the OLSAT than on an individually administered test like the WISC-IV? just wondering if I should accept these scores as a valid reflection of my 7 year old's abilities?

Both of my children score substantially lower on the CogAT (which I assume is similar to the OLSAT) than on the WISC IV.

Another thing to consider: Do you think it's possible that your younger daughter might have an undiagnosed learning disability?

I finally got serious about figuring out if my older son (then age 8) was actually 2E rather than simply average with slow processing speed when my younger son started reading at age 2. Several years later the older one was diagnosed with dyslexia and determined to be HGish.

Are your children full siblings? If so it would be unusual for them to be that far apart. I have heard of biggish gaps but if the score doesn't reflect what you see there could be a problem. Or maybe it isn't a good test and she was having an off day or misunderstood some of the instructions.

My DD19 who is 4 1/2 years older than my DS, is not gifted. She has LD's but even without them would not be considered on the gifted end. My DS14 on the other hand could read at 3, and max out his OLSAT when he took it in 3rd grade. There has never been a question he was gifted, and it's quite evident without testing.

In my school district they don't administer the OLSAT till the kids are in 3rd grade and 8 and older. They won't administer tests for LD's until 2nd grade. While I don't completely agree with them there attitude is the tests can be unreliable under a certain age. Children grow and mature quite suddenly, 7 is quite young to "decide" a child isn't gifted like her sister.

I would let your younger daughter grow and learn and not worry about the test results unless you really feel she isn't being challenged or is having problems. Children are different. Testing is imperfect.

Just found this link:

http://learningandlifeskills.typepa...-lennon-school-abilities-test-olsat.html

"Notice how the skillsets being assessed change once a child reaches 3rd grade - moving from a heavy dependence on figure-based reasoning to more verbal-based reasoning tasks. Notice also that students are not assessed for quantitative reasoning until 3rd grade, as well."

Perhaps this is the reason for the "lower" score.

Our district actually moved the OLSAT in the 3rd grade b/c they were finding the scores to be really far off that early. In fact, I had the same child score significantly different in 2nd grade vs. 3rd grade when they made this switch. I wouldn't put too much stock in the OLSAT as a single measure in the 2nd grade. That said, its not a bad measure to have if this child necessitates further testing later on.

The group ability tests like the OLSAT, CogAT, etc. do not measure the same things as the WISC.
DD's WISC GAI is approx. 32 points higher than her CogAT. Part of the problem with the CogAT was that it was timed and she didn't finish a lot of it. The section that she finished (verbal) was still a little lower than the WISC--97th percentile on the CogAT vs. 99th on the WISC.
First thing to do with these tests like the OLSAT is figure out if it was timed, and if it was, did the child answer all the questions. Then check to see if there were discrepancies among sub-tests (for instance scoring 30 points higher on one section than another). That would indicate a problem with the test (or a disability).
I would not come to the conclusion that she is not gifted based on the OLSAT. DD's CogAT composite was "high average" but her WISC is over 99.9th percentile. How sad it would have been if I had just taken the CogAT composite score at face value.

Yes, they are full siblings. Starting to wonder whether she has a learning disability of some sort.

Thanks for the response. Her verbal score was 96. Subsets were verbal comprehension and verbal reasoning, where she got 5/12 and 9/18 correct respectively. Nonverbal score was 104, and her subset there were 8/9 (pictorial reasoning) and figural reasoning (11/21). So she got about half of questions correct in each subset, except for the pictorial one).

I guess I can ask her teacher if test was timed... not sure if she would be able to tell me if she answered all the questions.

We might have her privately test with the WISC to see what is going on here.

Thanks!

THis is what Hoagies tells us about the OLSAT (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tests_tell_us.htm):

My son scored much lower on the OLSAT than on the WISCIV (however, he is twice-exceptional). I believe it is timed and my understanding is that the ability to listen closely and remember oral information affects the verbal portion more significantly than the non-verbal portion of that test and that the child must be paying complete attention to each word for every verbal item in order to answer it correctly. The tester only reads the question once and the question is not permitted to be repeated.

ETA: I put very little stock on the OLSAT - I believ it misses a lot of gifted children. A LOT.

Hopefully you can get a report that will show the # of questions attempted. If she left a lot blank, it could just be that she was slow or distracted. My DD has ADHD and processing speed issues and simply can't take timed tests like the CogAT. The psych who gave her the WISC said that it took her an hour longer to give DD the test than other gifted kids. DD took her time and scrutinized all answer choices carefully.

Not CogAt, but my youngest had an almost 2-sd difference between his KBIT score and his WISC-IV score. Had our school not also administered the TOMAGS, which he maxed out, at the same time they did the KBIT, he likely wouldn't have qualified for the school-administered full WISC-IV testing (his FSIQ was 146).

Don't panic. Just because she isn't shown to be gifted on this test, doesn't imply she might have a learning disability. Comparing your children's OLSAT tests is counterproductive. I disagree, Sibling do and can have big gaps. Plus this was ONE test, on one day, while your child is still quite young and doesn't show everything about your child. I know it's hard but try not to compare your children instead try to look at them and see what they need individually.

What is your motivation behind wanting more testing? Does your daughter have educational needs that aren't being met in the normal classroom, that you feel would be best addressed by a gifted program? Is she struggling in some areas? I wouldn't pursue more testing unless you had other indicators.

I don't have any experience with the OLSAT, but fwiw my EG ds tested quite a bit lower on the CogAT than he has tested on the WISC, the WJ-III Cognitive Abilities tests, and what seems like 1000 other achievement tests through school. As others have mentioned, this was one test, one day, one moment in time. Also most likely a brief test.

If you are curious and really want to have an idea of what her IQ is, I'd suggest having her tested with either the WISC or another individually administered and widely accepted IQ test. If you're trying to get her into gifted programming at school, and the OLSAT was the screener, you might be able to successfully advocate with a score from the WISC/etc - if it's in the range the school is looking for on the OLSAT.

I 'm not convinced though, that siblings are destined always to be within the same IQ range. Maybe so, but there are so many other ways in which siblings can be different from each other in personality etc, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that they may have completely different IQs. Some of what you said seems to possibly match what the OLSAT scores say:


If the OLSAT is scored with 100 as the median, then "98" is almost right there in the middle of the bell-curve average - and there are probably a lot of "normal" functioning kids out there with smack-dab average ability scores who can also be perceptive and mature with good sense of humor and good vocabulary. I'm not saying your dd isn't gifted - just noticing that with only one test, when you compare it to what you say you've noticed about her in school - the test might actually make sense. If it was me, I'd probably want another more thorough test Both because I was curious, and if I was hoping she could get into a gifted program within the school district.


Why do you wonder this? Is it only because of the discrepancy between her results and her sister's scores? Or do you have something else that makes you wonder about the possibility? If it's just due to the discrepancy in test scores, I wouldn't think twice about LDs. If, otoh, you've seen signs you feel your dd is struggling in any area at school (or home), or if you have extended family members who have LDs, then I would dig a little deeper, look at what was tested, do the OLSAT scores show any vairability, talk to her teachers to see if they've seen anything that indicates a challenge... and take her to a neuropsychologist for a full eval that will include individually administered ability and achievement testing.

Best wishes,

polarbear

It never even occurred to me that siblings would necessarily be very close together in intelligence until I read things on this board.

My sisters probably have an IQ that's two standard deviations lower than mine, at least, so wide discrepancy always struck me as normal.

In fact, my family had siblings that were close together in intelligence compared to another local family.

And my sisters have no learning disabilities.

Granted, I think that the overall families that my parents came from are two standard deviations apart.

My father is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

Both my brothers are PG. And I don't have iq scores but let's just say I am decidedly not PG but feel like a big doofus with one brother older than I am and one younger than I am. being sandwiched in between them was hard.

My baby sister just decided from birth her role was the social butterfly princess of the family so as to not have to compare to them. I am sure we are both just slightly below the gifted cut off...the high achieving above average kids. She was also a late bloomer (in college when she finally got serious).

My own experience is similar to JonLaw's above. I have two full siblings and one half-sibling, and the only one who is in my intellectual neighborhood is the half.

Take one gifted girl in an anti-girl era, simmer on medium heat with a rebellious personality, add one unremarkable boy with a pinch of "don't you dare date him," shake vigorously, bring to a rolling boil, and serve while scalding hot.

With that said, if your mommy-gut is telling you that these test results don't reflect your child, in cases where the parent is not afflicted with my-children-are-a-reflection-of-me-and-therefore-must-be-the-greatest-ever-itis (and that sounds like it's most definitely not the case here), then you should go with your gut and investigate further.

I also think there's a lot of variation. My brother is a high energy physicist, and while I don't think I'm dumb by any means, I struggled with math and did very well with reading/writing. If siblings do end up with similar IQs, a lot could be because of environment. It's not all genetics.

I agree with Dude that you should listen to your mommy-gut.

I mentioned the 2E thing because if there is a 2E issue, the sooner remediation/therapy/support starts for the second E, the better.

It's certainly not a reason to panic, but it might make sense to read a bit about how 2E kids present and spend some time simply observing with that in mind.

The figures don't say that all siblings are the same area of IQ but there is a high probability of being within 1SD and a very high probability of being within 2.

Hi... not sure why some of the posters think I was suggesting my younger daughter is gifted. I clearly indicated that I did not think she was... The OLSAT was given to the entire 2nd grade as a screening for the gifted program (this is a new procedure that started this year, so my older daughter did not take the OLSAT, just the WISC IV, and other screening tools before being allowed to take the IQ test).

I was simply surprised that my younger daughter scored average to below average... and was wondering if the OLSAT was a good tool to evaluate young children, and whether there might be something else going on that explain why she did not test in the higher average area that I kind of expected she would.

Also, I had read siblings tend to be with 1-2 standard deviations of each other, so I noted the gap.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful input!

Why would you want to take this one snapshot (test) as an indication of your kid's abilities, rather than the everyday picture she presents to you? Why would you want to have her tested privately? To place her in a gifted class? It may or may not be an accurate test (your description of her sounds does not sound incompatible with an "average IQ" kid, especially if she is in a stimulating environment). Unless there are concerns (choice of classroom, school, red flags regarding disabilities etc.) I simply don't see why this number matters...

why does everyone think I want her placed in the gifted program???? I just don't think she is a kid of "average IQ" and thought she would score in the "brighter spectrum". My initial question was whether anyone had a child the scored substantially lower on the OLSAT than an individually administered IQ test.

Wish I had never posted this...

Nutmeg, I have a younger sister who is very bright and incredibly argumentative. As far as I can tell, she doesn't have a LD. I do. Yet, it was me who usually scored 99 percentile and was eventually doubled skipped because we moved a lot and I got placed based on math assessment results. Her husband who is the sweetest guy in the world thinks her IQ must be sky high but I actually think it's within the average range based on her academic history. .

My point is, I think there are some people like my sister who is very intelligent but does relatively poorly in school and on IQ tests.

I understand where you are coming from. I think you have every reason to ask if that number is really an accurate estimation of her cognitive ability. There's a big difference between being at the 45th or 50th percentile and being high average such as the 85th in terms of what kind of academic work she can handle. And to answer your question, I don't think it is an accurate test.

If it's any consolation I'd be way too curious to not try the WISC. I'd just have to know, especially since it isn't unheard of to test lower on the OLSAT.

I have a friend who's kid came out PG when they screened all of the kindergarten kids in the system. They were completely blind-sided and the kid showed no outward signs of being gifted (to the parents or teachers). Even now meeting the kid he seems very average (I coach and volunteer a lot with kids). Not all kids are super obvious and with a gifted sibling I wouldn't want to miss a hidden talent (and/or LD masking it) just because I didn't look. That and I'm just way too curious

Why?

Dude and I are clearly enjoying the conversation, so it's definitely in the "win" column.

I don't think anyone is assuming you think she should be gifted. If she were one to two SD below she would be high average to MG and it sounds like the former is what she appears to you. What people are saying is a) it is not that great a test, and b) since the test results surprised you that you should keep an eye out for any possible problems that may have depressed her score.

Nutmeg, what jumped out of me from your original post was this -- you said she was mature, with a wicked sense of humor, and a great vocabulary. One thing I have learned from hanging out on this board is, you've seen one gifted kid, you've seen one gifted kid. Frequently, younger sibs present as less "typically" gifted. You may not think she seems gifted, but I rather think she might be. Mature, sense of humor, good vocabulary... If it were me, I would want to test.

Apologies, OP, I didn't mean to offend. I was simply wondering why you cared about that one snapshot in time, rather than taking the everyday picture she presents to you as more representative. Are you and/or OH likely gifted? If so, I might indeed want to test, but otherwise, I'd assume your eldest may just be an outlier, and keep an eye out for possible learning disabilities in your younger daughter, just in case.

The school never told me the name of the screening test administered to my twins when they were kindergarteners, but is was something like the OLSAT or CoGAT.

FWIW, my HG DS did not "pass" the screening. His scores on the visual-spatial side were below average, thus causing his total score to fall below the percentage usually required before the school will administer the WISC. However, they tested him anyway, as his verbal scores were extremely high, and he is one of those kids that is obviously "different."

His WISC score was very different than one might have expected given his screening test results. The psych mentioned that she had no idea what might have happened during the screening test for his scores to be so low. So yes, it is possible for the test results to be wrong.

Does the OLSAT have subtests? It might be possible that she scored really badly in one section, pulling down her overall score.

My DS scored very well on the SB5 HG.

He scored 122 on the OSLAT in 2nd grade. The school said these scores are not that high and they were suspicious of the score so they gave him the OSLAT again in 4th. He did even worse. He left half the question unanswered and said it was a stupid test. This is after a battery of testing that agreed with the SB5. He also was consistently way into the 99% on MAPS and scored above Davidson benchmarks on the EXPLORE. They just shrugged and said that is interesting.

I went to a school meetings with numerous reports suspecting the OSLAT might not be a good test in his situation.

They did put the SB5 in his records but wanted us to have him take the WISC IV for his records. I said we are through testing right now.

I think that the problem with this approach, particularly if the child is an obedient, rule-following, teacher-pleasing girl, is that the child may not act out despite lack of challenge, may not articulate it, and may begin to hide abilities to blend in, learn to do minimum, etc. etc. I believe it is worthwhile to pay for private testing to find out what is going on.

Because it is, IMO, a bad test, because it is possible that the child is not being adequately challenged, and because private testing can yield useful information. I have always heard test one (sibling), (with the right test) test them all. Being underchallenged in elementary school is not without consequences.

I find it amazing how people read into or don't read a post.

Nutmeg did start with a simple question.

He did later shake it up with
"Starting to wonder whether she has a learning disability of some sort."
I took that as tongue in cheek myself. maybe I'm off base here.

just my take...

I didn't take it as tongue in cheek, and given the very real struggles with LDs many kids on this forum face it wouldn't be an appropriate thing to joke about regardless.

I agree. My post was not directed at you deacongirl.

Guess I'll throw out my thoughts/experiences -

First I should say, I know nothing about the OLSAT (both DD7 & DD9 were given the KABC-II and Kaufman Achievement tests)and I don't know if you can really compare the OLSAT with the WISC when it comes to your daughters and their scores. I don't think I'd accept those scores and would want to see how she scored on the WISC just to have apples to apples. Believe me the ones who seem "normal" can surprise you, as we have recently found out.

Our older DD had issues in 1st grade with her behaviors at school - long story short - we had her tested to rule some things out and were surprised to find out she was gifted. We knew she was smart, but didn't realize just how smart. Now this DD of ours is not a people pleaser and marches to her own tune. She doesn't really care about grades or tests and likes to give silly answers to see if anyone will catch it. We warned the tester of this and I know she at least answered some questions with off the wall answers because she told us about it, so it is quite possible her IQ is actually higher than her test results indicate.

Then there is our younger DD. We recently had her tested and received her testing results. Just like your younger child - she seems more "normal" to us than DD9. We debated whether to test or not, but she was showing some signs of dysgraphia or dyslexia and we wanted to make sure we were doing what we needed to do for her. We also felt it wasn't fair to not have her tested since her sister was tested, but that was just our feelings on the matter.

I will honestly tell you that we were just hoping for at least an IQ high enough so she could qualify for the gifted program at school and we wouldn't have to deal with "how come sister gets to do this and I don't". I have read about sibling IQ's typically being within 10 points, so if she happened to be 10 points below DD9 she might be cutting it close. My DH and I talked about all the "what ifs" - what if she does have dysgraphia/dyslexia? What if she misses the cut off for the gifted program, then what will we do and how will that affect her? She is so different from our older DD, that I really didn't know if she would qualify. She is a total pleaser at school and her behavior at school is great (at home, eh, not so much). She is much more social than DD9 and has a lot of friends. Well, guess what - her IQ is about 20 points higher than DD9's and she hit ceilings on some subtests, so we don't really know how high she could have gone. They did not think she has either dysgraphia or dyslexia (I still think there is something, but not sure exactly what it is). I literally broke down in the tester's office because I was so shocked. I had so many things going through my head wondering how I could not have known after all the research and reading I've done since DD9 was tested 3 years ago. I just kept thinking - but she is so social, how can that be? Now I just assume one of her greatest areas of giftedness is socialization.

It wouldn't do any harm to have your DD7 tested using the WISC, other than maybe the cost to have her tested. She might surprise you!

Hi... not offended, just was a bit frustrated!

FWIW and since you asked, I was never identified as "gifted" but I grew up overseas and there were no gifted programs... although I did go to a magnet high school (admission test to get in) and attended an Ivy League institution her in the US. My husband was in the gifted program in elementary school, and we met at college. Both his parents graduated from same college as we did.

Why I started to worry about possible LD is that my older brother had a lot of academic issues when he was young... he probably had undiagnosed ADHD. He was late to read, had a hard time focusing.... was unremarkable through high school. Although at one point at high school some sort of IQ test was administered on him and he scored over 140 (to everyone's surprise). Long story short, he he ended up getting a PhD, and is a successful academician...

My younger dd is super social child with a lot of friends, and also has a hard time focusing when it comes to school related activities.. Like my brother, she also did not take to reading easily, but has managed to pick up in the last few months, and is now reading at slightly above grade level. Like I said in my original post, I don't believe she is gifted (I guess as I compare her to her older sister) but she does seem like a bright little girl (or maybe I am totally off-base as to what I would consider "average"). Thus my surprise with aforementioned OLSAT results...

My 6 year old DS actually comes across as delayed, and he IS delayed with various things. But his GAI is 133 (probably actually higher but he was tested right after a traumatic brain injury). He is twice exceptional though with developmental coordination disorder. No one who knows him casually would ever guess what his IQ is. They would probably say he is average or below average. People are shocked when they see what he can really do (like long division). I always thought he was "bright" and had some odd splinter skills or savant abilities, but I was very surprised by his perceptual reasoning score over 140--I didn't have a clue. So--you never know. What you consider bright might actually be in the top couple percentile.
My DS's uncle (on my Dh's side) had almost exactly the same issues that DS is having--he sounds like he was dygraphic and might have had DCD. He even got an IEP for it. I definitely think there's something genetic going on in some families.

My older son also came across as delayed between the ages of about 2-7. During that time, his FSIQ on the WISC IV was in the double digits. But subsequent testing revealed that his is actually HGish (I say "ish" because the testing shows him to be just below HG, but I believe that his LDs get in the way of an accurate assessment).

Well, since both parents and your first are very smart or gifted, that changes things; so yes, in that case, I'd go ahead and test, especially since there are apparently a couple of minor red flags (late reading). You may be surprised. And I think there is no doubt that having a very bright or gifted child distorts the view of what kids should/could be doing at any given time...

I've been following this thread. I don't know the Olsat so I looked around on Dr Google to find it is a multiple choice, group administered test. Reading your original question Nutmeg, I can see lots of reasons why this sort of test isn't necessarily giving you a score consistent with what you see in your child. Compared to having a child work with an individual assessor, you have no feedback on how your child approached the test, whether they understood or heard the verbally administered components, whether they were tired, hungry or distracted etc. Multiple choice tests are difficult for deep thinking kids who can argue the answers with themselves which can mean they lose time. They can talk themselves out of the right answer and they can fall behind in the verbal sections because they are still thinking of the question before.
With any test, if the results are not what you expect, you ask; was it the right/best test for what I want to know. If not, then investigate a better test. Then weigh the pros and cons of doing the test. Cost seems to be a major downside with individualised assessment and the time and potential stress involved. From my reading and personal experience, an individualised assessment with the WISC or, in our case the Stanford Binet 5 (minimal time stress), with an assessor experienced in giftedness provides a much better picture than a group test. So the short answer in my humble opinion is, if the results don't match what you expect, it is helpful and quite reasonable to go ahead and look at another test.
I would be very curious to hear how you get on if you decide to go ahead!

Just jumping in to say I agree with this. My two oldest are gifted and it was pretty obvious. We thought the third was bright but not gifted and had her tested just to make sure that was right. Nope - all three have the same GAI. Also the same processing speed - which was described by the psychiatrist who administered the tests as "slow as molasses."

I would have her tested. Very perceptive and mature, with a wicked sense of humor and a good vocabulary are clues I think.

I think those of us who come from families where there are a lot of untested gifted people have a warped idea of normal. My hg+ ds6 seemed completely normal to me - all the kids in my family are like that and none of them are gifted (well none of them have been tested because it wasn't something people did and anyway there was no programming and bright kids can take care if themselves). i had never even heard of gifted until about 10 years ago.

Almost a year later, I figured I would give an update on this situation. We finally got her tested with the WISC IV. Her FSIQ is 122, which was more in line with our expectations. I guess the OLSAT is not a reliable test.

I missed it, what did the OLSAT say? What range is 122? I quickly googled it, I think I know, but just want to make sure I understand.

The OLSAT results showed her as low average in terms of cognitive ability which we were shocked by.

Got it and just read all the posts. So the OLSAT was off. Thanks for sharing and updating.

Nutmeg, it seems you have started a very good discussion. Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts with us!

My Husband and I recently attended a parenting course for parents of gifted children. There was some interesting research they told us about saying second-born and subsequent children often don't appear or act gifted, and are less likely to be identified as gifted. They mentioned that children often want to adopt their own unique identity, and differentiate themselves from older children. Of course there can be a great variety across families, but the studies they cited found between 60-80% of siblings scored within 10 IQ points of each other. The combination of high probability of gifted siblings and younger children being less likely to be identified, I think it is important to look carefully at all our children, even if they do not necessarily appear gifted.

The lecturer also said she highly recommends having an IQ test done for all children if you find one is gifted not only because of the high probability of gifted siblings but also for equity. So when they are older and ask why you didn't test their IQ, you don't have to explain that you didn't think they seemed as bright, or if the IQ test for the tested child was due to exploring second exceptionalities or challenges you don't have to explain, well you seemed 'normal' and fine but your brother/sister . . .. Which I thought was an interesting point.

DS was tested at 4.5 as he was having some other issues and we wanted his school start to run as smoothly as possible. We have not test DD yet. She is not as academically geared, but ironically, we are pretty confident she is gifted for the same characteristics you mention Nutmeg, her logic, reasoning, and maturity. She makes connections all the time. She has a good sense of humour, and her language developed very early. She also seems to have some over excitabilities. We were planning to test her at the end of this year before she enters K next year, but we might hold off until she is 6 as I think testing is supposed to be a bit better at that age. After we do get her tested, we will see whether or not she is close in IQ to DS.