Hello all-

I've got a question about understanding the reading portion of a MAP score. I've seen plenty of people talk about having a bad day taking the MAP test. Can someone have a "good" day that gets them an artificially high score that they really shouldn't have? Maybe the score doesn't mean what it appears? Maybe a high score of 98% isn't high like a parent would think?

My DD took the MAP at the beginning of school this year. She got a 207 in reading in the 98th percentile. For second grade reading they want them going from level J-L. She was put in level K and didn't move. At conference, I saw her scores, but moreover, saw what they were reading and knew it was way too low. I demanded a reading group change to which the teacher said she would need to do a DRA which resulted in a move to level L (only 1 level) and a comment that she needed alot of work on comprehension.

I don't understand what's happening between the MAP score, DRA, and group placement. It seems like the MAP score doesn't mean anything this year. How can someone score high on the MAP but be in a lower reading group? Does MAP mean anything? Why is there such a divergence between MAP and the DRA?

I'm writing this because for the first time, I'm worried about reading. The teacher has stated my daughter is not in a high group and they were even making her go to an outside reading group for remediation which she said embarrassed her. I don't understand what is happening at the school and with all the knowledgable people on here I wanted to see what others thought. Is this gross incompetence? Or does this happen all the time? The school doesn't allow parent volunteers and doesn't send home any outside work so I didn't really know what was happening until conference. Since then I have felt very uneasy.

On any multiple choice test which does not penalize for incorrect answers, individuals may score higher than their actual knowledge. This is done by lucky guessing. This can be pure random chance or test-taking strategy. Sometimes an individual is able to eliminate one or more possible answers and increase the likelihood of guessing the correct answer. Some have said this indicates the individual knew something related to the question... for example, this may reflect vocabulary or random knowledge. Here is an article on "testwiseness" (link- http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Testwiseness_in_educational_psychology). Remember a test score is just one measure on one day, and can be influenced by many factors, including the child's interest in the topic of the reading material.

A teacher comment may be meant rather generically, for example, there may be a list of 4 or 5 areas of growth which apply to most pupils. Pupils may also score lower on reading material which is not of interest to them. That being said, you may wish to find out how your child's "comprehension" is being assessed? For example, is it computer-based multiple-choice questions? Is comprehension tested by "retelling?" Here are two stories you may wish to consider...
1) One family learned that the teacher's "comprehension questions" came with a grading key on which the teacher would tick off words which the child recited from the text verbatim. If a child put the story into their own words (for example, saying "pig" in place of "piggy", "rabbit" or "hare" for "bunny", "swiftly" or "quickly" for "fast") the child received a poor score for essentially demonstrating understanding/comprehension/vocabulary rather than rote memorization. It was not explained to the child that he needed to remember the story words exactly and say them back to the teacher... this was a "comprehension" test: tell me what happened in the story you just read.
2) One family learned that their child elaborated, theorized, and thought deeply about the reasons why each character may have done what they did, other things they may have done instead, how he thought the author would be leading to one ending, and felt that may have been better than the ending which the author chose... etc.

Obviously both of these kids were "beyond" in their comprehension of what they read. Some may say the test was flawed... or the testing conditions were flawed in not setting parameters proactively, for the child to keep in mind when discussing the story.

Another thought to consider, because you mention second grade: Some parents have learned interesting information when asking a teacher's view on whether children even out by third grade. Is it possible the teacher is directed to ensure that children even out by third grade? There are things which a teacher may do to influence the performance of the top pupils to even out.
1) Evening out can be accomplished by undermining a child, mocking achievement, encouraging underachievement. One example may be inducing guilt or shame by asking a non-competitive child who just happens to be at the top of the class (whether they know it or not), "Why do you always have to be number one?" Withholding earned awards, selectively withholding praise, making negative comparisons to others can be effective for this purpose while also damaging children.
2) Evening out can appear to have occurred by fostering conditions which allow lower subjective grading.

Most likely, it is just a normal fluctuation... remember a test score is just one measure on one day, and a single comment made in passing may be meant rather generically, to be taken lightly. Asking a few simple questions to help explore your child's interest in the reading material, how the comprehension is assessed, whether the teacher is encouraging your child's progress and success, and understanding the teacher's view on whether children even out by third grade may help you determine how to support your child's reading comprehension at home, as well as whether any advocacy may be needed to request a few specific changes with the school.

What does she read (easily and for fun) at home? Take at a look at that and try to level it:

http://www.readinga-z.com/readinga-z-levels/level-correlation-chart/

http://www.lexile.com/findabook/

Sometimes reading comprehension questions are very stupid and bad. If she was given a short and terrible assessment, it could have been off.

Can you ask for a list of comprehension questions to review with her? Also be sure to ask what kind of answers they want the kids to give - extremely detailed, or are they supposed to give broader answers. Learning the type of answers they want is very important. Is she supposed to be writing about the books? Couch your request as "we want to work with you by working with her at home on the same skills she is learning at school."

At second grade level in our school, the kids are expected to go from retelling what happened in detail to talking more about the characters and the setting, and explaining the plot in broader terms than before. They are expected to begin to do some analysis, at a very low level.

One of my sons had a lot of trouble in K with reading because he wasn't paying attention to the material during the DRA assessment, and didn't know he was supposed to retell every page in detail. Then he developed anxiety about the assessments because he knew he wasn't passing, and it got even worse. However, once I figured out what he was supposed to be doing, I was able to teach it to him in 10 minutes.

Our school sends home the list of comprehension questions/items that they are tested on to move to the next level, so that we can practice at home.

Sounds like they used the DRA for the comprehension.

Is your school a title 1 school? If it is you have the absolute right to volunteer. I can't imagine (other than the cost of the background checks) why title 1 school law demands that schools have home/school connection and volunteerism and then a school down the street can prohibit volunteers. If I were not welcome on campus, I would pull my son out. I think I would have to go higher up the food chain to find out the TRUE policy about volunteers.

I know my son comprehends all the books he reads. Our house is like living in a perpetual book club. My boys request that we read their favorite books and then we all have to talk about them. Sometimes the two boys are reading the same book and having in depth discussions about plot, motivation, what is to come next in the series, what they would have done differently, meanings of symbolism, etc. like other kids talk about the big game. If a teacher tells me his comprehension is low (which they did in 1st grade) I just have to chuckle. We also sometimes still read together at night...he reads one page and I read the next...and immediately discuss words, imagery, etc.

So my son reads 4th and 5th grade level selections in reading class and hopefully they work on his comprehension. Then he reads 6th, 7th and up books for pleasure. He just devours them and has absolutely no problem understanding what he is reading.

My son's best friend is a 6 year old girl in his class. My son is very advanced and got placed in a reading group all by himself because there were no others at his level. The girl, his friend, who is probably more advanced than him in my opinion was placed in a very low level reading group. When the parents told the teacher that she was reading Geronimo Stilton books at 5 years old, the teacher was very surprised. This girl is very quiet and is not forthcoming or wants to speak out - she is just a very quiet and thoughtful little girl. The teacher said that she does a periodic assessment of kids to place them in groups for reading - and the girl in question was not answering anything when the assessment was happening - because she was not the kind of kid who would speak out in a crowd. So, the teacher said that because of the lack of any other information regarding her comprehension abilities, she placed her in a low level group.
So, please check if your daughter is answering the teacher when the comprehension questions are asked. Let her also know that it is important to answer those questions to the fullest of her abilities. I believe that your daughter is showing her true comprehension abilities in the MAP test and hiding it when there is an oral comprehension test.
Ask the teacher to retest your child - in support of your request, make her work on a comprehension exercise at home on a popular book at your child's real level and take it to the teacher as proof.
Good luck.

I'm not familiar with MAP so can't really speak to it, but fwiw I agree with the others above who've suggested it could be related to having to answer questions orally if it was the DRA. We also found in the early grades that when DRA assessments were used the person administering them didn't always keep going - they would stop when they thought it was an ok place to stop, even though our ds could have successfully continued through many more levels. Another thing that can happen is an off-day - we didn't ever know when our kids would be assessed, and one day in 1st grade ds' teacher caught me at pickup to tell me how incredibly well ds had done on his reading assessment that day. I wasn't really at all concerned about levels, but my automatic response was surprise because ds had been up past midnight the night before (who knows why!) and so I just made an off-hand remark to the teacher that I was surprised he was able to stay awake through it. The teacher didn't say anything to me, but she right away wondered if he'd really tested to his best ability and gave him a second assessment where she offered him more challenging levels, and his level basically doubled. She just wasn't looking for it initially because he was already (on an off day) testing at a high level. It could be anything really - what I find most helpful is to look at what seems like a low score in the context of other assessment scores - has your dd had multiple high MAP scores in reading? Has she had other types of reading assessments that were high? Which test scores (high or low or in between) match what you see at home in terms of reading ability?

There's also another thing that I think is important to consider, and since I am not familiar with MAP tests I can't specifically address them. The thing to watch out for is the potential of a reading challenge when you see uneven test results. If you don't see any signs of a challenge outside of the testing, if your dd likes reading, and if you have only one test score, there's most likely nothing to think twice about. OTOH, reading challenges can be really tough to see in gifted children, particularly when they are young and start reading early. What happens with uneven testing *might* be that your child is being tested on different types of reading skills (comprehension vs fluency, silent reading vs oral comprehension etc.) It's definitely worth a look at what specific reading skills are being tested in what way (oral vs written vs multiple choice response) etc - you might find something there that would help understand why one score is lower than others.

polarbear

From what I have heard a lot of adults would have trouble with comprehension tests - we simply don't focus on minute detail.

Most high achievement test scores are not anomalies. Still, I was more convinced that my DD's MAP reading scores were a decent indicator of her reading level when she had multiple high scores. She took the MAP test in the fall of 2nd and then again in the fall of 3rd. She stayed in the same percentile range and showed excellent growth from year to year.

DD is a voracious reader (as in it is very hard for the teacher not to notice, as her nose is often in a book when she has a chance) and she also had some very high measures in other areas (Dibbles, AIMS-Web). I think it would be hard to argue that her recent MAP scores were an aberration.

Why does your DD's school give the MAP tests? Did they provide a MAP lexile level and does this level seem like an accurate measure of your DD's reading ability? Has she taken or will she take the test again soon? If she is showing a pattern of scoring high, it would be hard to argue that the score is just "good guessing."

"Poor comprehension" is a common excuse to give to parents of excellent young readers, as to why students cannot actually be instructed at their level (implying that although they can decode the words, they do not understand what they are reading). I believe that the MAP test actually does test this and it would probably be hard to obtain that score with poor comprehension. You may want to assess comprehension on your own, but evidence of excellent comprehension can help boost your request for more challenging instruction (other test scores, WJ III Ach. Reading scores, etc.).

HTH!

MAP test is so called the "computer adaptive test" or CAT. So if the kid guessed the answer, most likely, the computer would switch to the lower level problems. A few wrong guesses later, her score would be much lower than her actual knowledge level. Then she might feel more comfortable with the easy question and may start building her score back up.

Only in the extreme cases that the kid was in a totally "no-compliant" mood, the score would show quite a deduction.

In case that the kid was indeed in a "good" mood and she was smart enough to figure out the trick to get the best score was sitting at the computer for as long as the teacher allowed and think through the problems, then the score would show.

Lucky guess woudn't matter since it would introduce problems from more difficult level and the probabilities of more lucky guess would diminish quickly.

Are her comprehension tests the traditional AR tests that she takes on the computer? Or is the teacher asking her questions and waiting for verbal indication that she comprehends?

If it is the computerized AR test, then I would ask that she be tested orally and see if this changes the comprehension score. If it does then I would start to consider that either she is not a good tester or that she may have some trouble using the computer or might need an eye examination.

If you can't identify a problem with the comprehension testing, and you feel that her reading is not being challenged at school then I would probably chalk it up to an uncooperative teacher and do my best to work with DD at an appropriate reading range at home.

Anytime you have a multiple choice test with no penalty for guessing, there is the potential to boost the scores a little. There is a standard error of 6 to 8 points around a score, but in general, the MAP score should not be that far off. Therefore, even if your DD is not really at 98 percentile, she is clearly well above average.

The MAP tests more than just simple reading comprehension so obviously high areas can mask lower areas.

As the MAP is multiple choice, it does not require the ability to formulate a coherent written and/or oral response, which the school curriculum most likely requires. If your DD has weaknesses in written expression and/or is not particularly articulate speechwise, that may impact her teacher's perception of her comprehension ability.

You need to find out the particulars about the remediation from the school as well as question your DD about her DRA testing experience.

Wow - Thanks so much for everyone's input. I never expected a first post to garner so much information and I'm grateful to everyone who has responded.

There are a few things which I now feel upon reading the responses here that may be contributing to our issues but I did not post because I was not sure about whether MAP could give "artificially high scores" and didn't want TMI out there.

This is the first MAP test DD has taken at the school so this is the starting point. I don't know if she is "test-wise" yet or not. I was surprised by her score because I didn't even know she was taking it, parents weren't informed. I just know she loves to read. She always has a book.

DD's "real" teacher went on maternity leave the 2nd week of school. Since that time, we have had a licensed "temp" teacher as the regular teacher. She is young, a recent graduate and appears to have been a regular temp at our school as well as a neighboring community school, and has been strict with following "the rules". The "real" teacher will be returning after winter break. While the temp teacher is nice and comes from a really good college, DD has not been challenged this year at all and every time this has been brought to our attention, we send an e-mail to which she responds "don't worry it will get harder". It has not.

The only accommodation that we have received is the reading group change when I was pretty adamant that with her scores she should not be reading "Splat the Cat" in class and going to remediation. My husband asked in an e-mail what the remediation was for and we were told "retired teachers like to come to the school and help out to make kids better readers". We still do not know what was being "worked on" during those sessions as DD said she just had to read with a bunch of kids who had trouble reading (hence my question of gross incompetence).

An oral DRA was done after conferences and my DD said she read a non-fiction selection all about growing peanuts . There was no writing and she said it didn't take very long. I asked if it seemed hard (any problems with words) and she said no.

The resultant e-mail I received from the teacher said my daughter didn't "understand why a character was sad" and she needed alot of work on comprehension so would move 1 level up. I had a hard time believing it and asked my DD if there was any "sadness" about the selection she read or anything her teacher talked about with her to imply such. She said no. In fact, at home we had just finished a book where it was sad for the characters because of poverty (Louis Armstrong's life as a boy) and I know she understands empathy for that situation. She reads all the time and recently started "The Lightning Thief" because of her interest in Greek mythology and she told me she loves reading it. It's rated for 5th-6th grade. The remediation stopped as well after the DRA.

My DD is one of the younger ones in the class. She just turned 7 right before school began and already alot of kids are 8 or are turning 8 soon in her class. She won't be 8 for the whole school year. She loves to read, but she can't write well at all. She is also shy and has not scored well on any of the Common Core speaking evaluations so far.

Because of her age, she still has a tendency to act "goofy" and has a preference for hanging out with younger children. We've tried to work on it, but it is a challenge. I feel this will hold her back. She excels in math (95% on the MAP) and reading (98% on MAP). But her writing score was only 90%. I feel this leads to a bad perception. Her writing is so remedial in comparison to her reading skills, I even wonder if she may have traits of dysgraphia. I just do not know at her young age if or when writing will improve to match her other cognitive abilities and I worry alot about it and whether it is an LD.

Some may ask why I haven't been down to the school to settle this. My husband is very worried about being perceived as the "problem parent" in the class and school. I feel like if I try and demand to visit the classroom now, I will be seen as "spying" because the teacher has already had some e-mail communication with us and my DD says no parents have visited this year and no volunteers were requested (perhaps because of the temp teacher). He has tried to keep it low-key and feels as long as she is getting a perfect on the tests (which she does) and the teacher refers to her as "a smart kid that we should be proud of", we should not rock the boat and risk any retaliation. DD is not upset about going to school and doesn't seem to have a bad attitude.

Inside, it bothers me a great deal to know my DD is stuck on low math and low reading (even with good test scores), but my husband does not agree. He was in a similar situation to my DD when he was young. His mother pushed for him to be accelerated and he has always maintained that it made his school years miserable. He says he had few friends, could never get a date with any girl, and being so young to graduate went on to affect him in college where he was the youngest one there too. He agrees that the work is remedial, but feels for now we should hold off.

In the meantime, I provide things at home to keep her interest up. We will wait until the regular teacher returns because we do not know what her stance will be either. MAP testing will be done again at the end of the year and like alot of you on this forum, we will see over time how it goes and make decisions as appropriate.

Once again, I do appreciate the thoughtful responses. I was not aware of being "test-wise" and all the anecdotes from others have provided a wealth of experience to draw from. This is a book, but perhaps someone else out there may find themselves in a similar situation with their child and find value in it.

Thanks again everyone.

Hmmm.... I have a couple of thoughts. First, remediation is not something that is offered as a normal part of a school day (like math or social studies). If a student goes to remedial reading (at our school, anyways) it is because a reading deficit has been noted and tracked. The parents are notified ahead of time and given a progress report.

Can you have your school librarian administer a STAR test? At our school the librarian gives the kids the STAR test and assesses their reading levels and comprehension.

To be honest, it sounds like your DD read one book (the peanut growing non fiction book) and the teacher tested her on an entirely different book (sad character book).

Your DD's writing may be at 90% (which seems low to you) but keep in mind she is probably the best writer in her classroom at 90%. That 90% isn't just her class, it is her entire district. For example, my DD has five elementary schools in her district, so if she scored 90% on her NWEA, it would mean that she tested better then 90% of all of the kids at all 5 schools, in her grade level!

So, don't let them discourage you based on a 90% writing test result, that is not a shabby score what so ever.

Unless you and your DH are ready and willing to sit quietly and let the year go by (or the time with this sub, anyways) with your daughter receiving remedial services that you have no clue if she really needs or not and give into the idea that in order for her to be challenged you have to basically continue her reading education at home, because she is not being taught anything at school, then I would most definitely speak up.

All signs are pointing to a problem, IMHO. You see her reading and comprehending at home. Something is not adding up. I would definitely ask to meet with the remedial specialist and find out what the diagnosis is that put your daughter into that service and then I would ask about STAR testing, AR testing, etc... Also, I would want to know if the books she is reading in class match her NWEA Lexile range.

If there is a problem with her reading and comprehension, fine, they need to do a better job communicating the problem to you so that you can understand and support it. But you are not seeing any problem, her test score is not indicating a problem, so someone needs to do some explaining, IMHO.

It is hard to muster up the courage and advocate. My only advice is to let go of what others might think of you and remember that you are the voice of your child. She deserves an equal opportunity to have a great education.

It sounds like a HUGE disconnect between the scores and the leveling of your DD. She is excelling in more than one area - this is harder to ignore or chalk up to good guessing. I do not believe that MAP tests are ever age-normed (ours have never been). This means your young DD is outperforming most in her grade, despite her age. "Remedial," is not something I would expect to see with those scores unless your DD is "twice exceptional" or 2e. Have they specifically diagnosed a LD? If a LD is suspected, the school needs to better communicate with you. Also, a LD could be actually dragging her scores down - she might score even higher on achievement testing with the proper support for her needs/possible challenges. It sounds like the school needs to consider the whole picture with your DD. They also should be accommodating her strengths (providing academic challenge so she will continue to make progress), as well as her challenges (what, specifically, needs remediation and how do they plan to address?). I think you might need to put the "problem parents" concerns to the side here (I understand that this can be difficult).

Perhaps our testing experts can weigh in - at this point, perhaps it is a good idea to rule out a LD (for your peace of mind, and to perhaps illustrate her learning potential, as well), with an assessment (WISC, etc.)?

Wishing you and your DD the best!

I have another update to this thread and wanted to see if any one of the forum users might be able to offer some additional advice.

I was under the mistaken impression that my daughter was no longer attending the small group sessions at her school. She came home last week with a packet and I asked about it because it was the first evidence of what's been happening in her reading sessions and it was completed. She said it was done but they were getting ready to start another. I was concerned because her teacher just stuck the packet in her folder and still we have not received any notice about any of this outside of my DD. The packet was indeed for speed of reading and comprehension questions. Of course, her writing was terrible and the sentences awful, but clearly I could see she was able to answer all the questions and had coherent responses which I would expect. I asked her if it seemed hard and again she replied no.

We have contacted the teacher about the disconnect between our daughter's scores and receiving remediation. This is all being done via e-mail and we are trying to be careful about it. We have asked 2 times now and the teacher keeps using disingenuous euphemisms in response to the sessions calling them "additional practice" "with volunteers" and "reading with other students beyond what is done in the room" and "based upon her own observations and not from the result of any test". The sessions are small group and repetitive which seem to fit the description of how Tier 2 RTI is to be conducted in our state.

At this point, I am pretty concerned. In online research, most RTI sites say parents should be informed and involved when a child enters Tier 2 as it's much more intense and a serious deficit has been noted. I have even seen some sites state that it's against the "spirit of child-find laws" to not inform parents when a child is placed in Tier 2. This teacher has done nothing but attempt to skirt the issue. And it is only when we explicitly question, that we then receive these vague and patronizing responses.

At this point, I am worried about what this means.

Obviously, DD has failed some benchmark. She seems to be in Tier 2 RTI working on comprehension and has been for some time even with a reading MAP score of 98%. Her class reading group is currently reading 400 lexile level books when MAP suggested 600 level (and that was at the beginning of the year). The school has not informed us of anything and the teacher is less than forthcoming. DD is still bringing home perfect test scores and seems happy enough.

I feel we have an uncooperative temp teacher but am not sure what to do about it. How serious is this for my DD? We had hoped to get her advanced as clearly from her test scores the work is too easy. But now, I feel like she may be getting negative remarks in her file with RTI that would set her up for disqualification. Has the school already labelled her? I read online that 50% of the kids sent to RTI are misevaluated or presumed "diagnosed" or that RTI can sometimes be mistakenly used in perpetuity to keep students who really need to be evaluated from having one due to cost. I am embarrassed to say it, but could this also be an extreme measure by an uncooperative teacher to level my DD?

If we demand an evaluation, what does this mean for my DD's future in this district? Will she forever be labelled whether she actually has an issue or not affecting her future class placement? She is young, could she be misidentified as ADHD and we would be stuck with that label? I've also read many younger children in classrooms tend to be given this label erroneously when they don't seem mature in comparison to older classmates.

Should we let it go and wait until the regular teacher comes back after winter break? Or because it's been some weeks now and testing takes time, should we act now and just contact the school counselor and demand evaluation asap as we can't tell about the duration of these sessions? If an evaluation comes back as LD does she go into remedial classes for next year such as master of none said her son experienced?

This whole situation just seems very off to me. I don't understand the disingenuity on behalf of the teacher, I don't understand why information didn't come home automatically as our states DOE says explicitly that when Tier 2 is needed, it's critical for parents to be involved to achieve success. It is one of the 6 common goals identified for the program to "prevent the state from making judgements on behalf of a child without parental input". I don't know what this means for the future and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Personally, I would not wait. I would ask for a conference with the substitute teacher and see if you can try to understand what is going on with your DD. Although the regular teacher might be easier to communicate with, I wouldn't want to lose any more time. Do they suspect a LD? Have they been clear on this? It doesn't sound like they have.

Will your DD retake the MAP in the winter? The problem is, unless she is managing to "challenge herself" enough on her own at this point, her scores may begin to drop and then they might say "See? The fall scores were just a fluke." Based on what you have written here, the instruction they are currently providing, on its own, is unlikely to keep her MAP scores up. Still, she might be doing this on her own.

Do you suspect a LD? If so, would you consider outside testing, as mentioned above?

My DD is young in her class, too, and had similar-range fall of 2nd grade MAP reading test scores (she had just turned 7 during the summer before 2nd grade). She IS an excellent reader, and I felt that the test was probably accurate for her. After the test, DD's school kept her in the most challenging reading group they had for 2nd grade, and DD has continued to make progress. DD also read a great deal on her own. Her start of 3rd grade MAP test score gave her a lexile range starting at over 1100. This allowed DD to stay at the same percentile range on her fall of 3rd grade MAP tests. I think her progress was partially just because she is a reader (challenges herself), but I do think the 2nd grade reading teacher did try to keep her group THINKING.

Best wishes to you and your DD! Please let us know how you are doing.

I have a child who scores really high on MAPS tests and low on DRA. He was diagnosed as dyslexic with very high intelligence. We score 95th percentil on MAPS and a year behind on DRA. I would want to know the reason for the lower DRA score. For my child it is fluency, word correct per minute. He reads much slower than he should. However, when he has quite a bit of time, like on MAPS, which has no time limits, he does extremely well. I still would want him to be in a remediation or extra help group just to get better at all of it.

Believe me, if your daughter had dyslexia or a LD, you would suspect something. I would see him guess at whole words alot. The first letter would be correct and the rest of the word wasn't even close. If he guessed correct, he did great on comprehension. If he guessed an important word wrong, then he did terrible. I noticed major spelling issues, grammar issues, and up until early 4th grade reversed letters. His dyslexia is considered minor, but he still has major issues. We also have major swings in assessments, which makes it really hard to know how they stand.

I would go in and meet with the teacher and ask to see the DRA score sheet. For my son, DRA is a much better indicator of how much he has improved over time.

Hello everyone! Hope all had a wonderful Christmas and are looking forward to the New Year!

Another update on this:

I spoke with DD's teacher a few weeks before holiday break and we requested that another DRA be performed. The conversation did not go very well as I explained what DD reads at home, how DD complained that her teacher didn't have any challenging books for her, and that DD noticed the difference in the reading groups with the high group getting much better books to read and according to my DD "way harder questions" from the teacher while all her group did was basically round-robin reading from a book about 300 points below DD's MAP assessed Lexile and no questions. DD also explained that for some weeks, the teacher would spend double time with the low group, time with the high group, and skip DD's group.

When I asked about the disconnect between MAP and DRA (teacher's assigned reading level), DD's teacher said her high MAP score was not even considered in determining classroom instruction. When I stated I was shocked because the district states 95% was the district's cutoff for advanced instruction and how they spend millions on administering MAP, she kept insisting DD was at the right level and MAP was of no consequence.

The DRA was done by another teacher and my DD came home from school saying her teacher "had a fit with her taking the test" and gave her trouble about utilizing the book for the writing part which my DD had to show her the paper which stated "use book" and explain that the other teacher had provided the book. This was not the first time my DD had stated that her teacher has been short with her.

We received no response back on the test from DD's teacher when we asked. We sent an e-mail to the other teacher asking for a score and were politely told that the information had been forwarded to my DD's teacher who is on maternity leave and someone would be in touch with us after school starts back up.

As part of the other teacher's e-mail who tested our DD, she put this in her reply which has since started a feud between DH and I:

"At this time, I recommend not focusing on the “level” she is reading, but simply making sure to read each night. It is both my personal and professional opinion that students should be reading books that they are interested in, rather than a specific level. The level of books simply helps teachers in finding good fit books for classroom instruction. "

This to me does not make sense. I feel level of text is extremely important. Lexile.com states that in order for students to grow, they must read books in their proximal range of no more than 100 points below their assessed Lexile and 50 points above. Like others, I feel wary of the DRA. My DD is a terrible oral speaker and not that great at writing. But give her a test like MAP and she can shine with the knowledge of what we've read and talked about. Now I am worried that DD won't receive any instruction at school and be consigned to round-robin reading of low-level texts until she becomes an "orator" which I feel is simply not possible for her at this age.

DH feels that reading level in school doesn't matter. If she is not in the high group, it is no big deal just as long as she is not in the lowest group. He feels that if she can't read aloud orally then the school is right to stop advancement until she is a perfect oral reader (even though the high reading group according to DD doesn't read aloud during group, very little, mostly silent reading followed by challenging questions). If it's not important for those children, why is it so important for DD? DD states no one in the class reads "like an adult" and they all make mistakes.

What are the opinions here? Is oral reading that important? Is the teacher right in that the levels do not matter? I would think from DD's perception of instruction, it seems obvious to her that what she is reading is not on her "level". For myself, it doesn't seem logical. I believe like Lexile.com states that what level you read at is extremely important. Even from guided reading sites, one can see the huge difference in books. My DD knows when she is reading something "easy" vs. something "hard".

What bothers me most about the whole situation is the thought of sending my child to school where she essentially learns nothing from the provided instruction with teachers telling us to do the work ourselves each night. All the while, other parents children are being challenged and receiving what I perceive as a "better" education even though we all pay the same property taxes.

Here's a perspective: here in the UK, we don't have the concept of lexile levels of books, and our children read better than US children (according to Pisa, by one point ;-) [emoticon indicating that nobody should imagine I actually think this is much of an argument!] So I'm bound to think it's not very important. I wonder whether any other countries have this concept (routinely use it in assigning books to children, I mean)?

I think having a child who learns to read without difficulty is a luxury and should be enjoyed! When my DS entered school already reading fluently, his lovely first teacher said something like "he obviously doesn't need to learn to read, let's get him reading to learn". He's done some "guided reading" of the kind you're talking about, where a group of children talk about a story they're all reading (I remember he got into "trouble" once for reading ahead, because part of what they were doing was discussing what might happen next, and that was spoilt if someone knew). Generally he has just read things that seemed interesting to him, and the teachers' interventions and ours have been mostly suggesting things outside his normal range of choices that we think he might enjoy. It's worked fine for him.

You don't actually say what your DD's oral reading is like? I'd be concerned if she can't read accurately (within reason: the odd change that doesn't change the sense is normal) and with expression when asked to do so. I'd want to understand what was stopping her in that case, and then for most causes, doing plenty of reading aloud to check progress seems reasonable. (If the problem was that she was very shy and couldn't bear to do it in a classroom situation, or something like that, of course, a different course might be needed. But you do need to understand what's going on if she has a problem with reading aloud, IMHO.) Beyond that, my personal opinion is that really good oral reading (the kind that people love to listen to) is a great skill to have, and worth working towards, but not a prerequisite for using reading in other ways. (It certainly is possible for some young children, by the way.)

I'd be concerned if class time were really being spent doing just round robin reading aloud in a group of children with no adult attention and no discussion - but I'd be cautious about taking this at face value!

Lexile.com, of course, would say that lexile levels are important, wouldn't it? :-)

Does your school have access to a website called RAZ kids? If so, I would stop debating it with the teacher and allow her to read and test her comprehension on RAZ and let her go as far as she can on that website.

I tend to agree that the assigned levels are really unimportant as long as your child is reading and comprehending at her desired level. It sounds like she is already beyond classroom instruction and her teacher is very inflexible. Perhaps I have been beaten down by the system (we have no G&T here in MI, so we get NO acceleration what so ever) but when I finally stopped banging my head against the wall making the school cooperate and just started supplementing at home, my life became so much more peaceful and less stressful and my DD continues to flourish and bloom at school at her own pace, regardless of what is being instructed in the classroom. Currently we work on Algebra at home and they are just starting division in her classroom.

I am just thankful she loves the socialization at school, otherwise, I fear she would hate to go there every day. If I had more confidence, I would just home school, but I can clearly see my DD is going to be far more advanced then I ever was, so I don't want to mess her up for life!! LOL

You've received a lot of great advice and information already.

I share your concern regarding test score data and reading group placement information not being shared on a timely basis. That being said, substitute teachers, even long-term subs, may have limited decision-making authority. Because you mention that this sub has had several assignments with the school, your paths may cross again, as she may be likely to sub again or even be hired in a regular teaching position.

You may already have explored the MAP test website (NWEA.org), and may have read their articles about sharing test results, using score ranges, utilizing three pieces of data (triangulation) to make placement decisions etc (to navigate through their website to this information, click on "support", then "article", sharing-results-students). The RIT score charts also provide interesting background information. The ideas gleaned from reading the test company's website may be helpful to keep in the back of one's mind when meeting with DD's teacher after she returns from maternity leave.

Some agenda items to guide a meeting discussion might be those which help you learn:
1- What data is being used to determine DD's reading placement?
2- Relative strengths and weaknesses? What identified skills to work on?
3- How is comprehension being assessed?*
4- How a child qualifies for placement in the next higher reading group?

You may wish to keep a list of books your DD reads at home, noting their reading level, and date. This may be helpful for future advocacy.

(*In some cases, such as F&P, a teacher may be able to share a comprehension rubric, the results of which are separate from the letter score. Further conversation may lead to the Continuum of Literacy Learning, a book which the teacher may have received included in the professional framework, part of the benchmark assessment system.)

Good luck with this.

ETA: link to one of the threads which previously discussed DRA assessments.

Just wanted to give everyone a quick update on this. We left off at Christmas with the sub doing another DRA and telling me emphatically that DD was in the correct reading group (level L with 40 page books, large print, and no vocabulary) and being in a special pull-out class for kids with reading problems.

After Christmas, we started back up and amazingly, the first week, DD was put in the highest reading group and assessed at a level R. MAP reading test increased to 99%.

Math stagnated as nothing was taught the entire semester and DD slipped down to 90th percentile. We supplemented at home as much as possible (even learning multiplication, long division, and fractions). No measurement skills were taught at all and I was not at all sure what would be on the math portion so we just focused on those basic areas. Apparently, it was not near enough. Her chance for accelerated work in this area for next year was sabotaged by an inept instructor.

The sub has now moved onto another 2nd grade class in our school where the teacher is out on maternity leave for the rest of the semester. I have no doubt that she is doing this to another child whose classroom placement will be greatly affected by it next year.

Thanks for the update! Glad to hear your child's assigned reading level has moved up.

In regard to the sub, it appears as though she may not be empowered to make changes, but rather may be required to essentially keep the class in a state of suspended animation? Is this something which might be discussed/clarified with powers-that-be at your child's school?

Just wanted to add my experience on here too. We have had a similar experience at our school. My son scored very highly on all of his MAP subtests. Yet, the school didn't want to accelerate him in math and put him in an average level reading group. When I asked the school about this discrepancy, they gave me a lot of gobbledygook about how the MAP test only tests certain things and the in class assessment tests other things. Bottom line: the MAP test means nothing in our school (don't know why they are doing it) and the in class assessments mean everything.

Our school has worked to undermine achievement with my son and other gifties. There have been some scary passive aggressive attempts to make sure the gifties "even out". For example, in my son's class last year, there was a group of gifted/bright boys. For some reason they all got put into the same class. The other class had a mix of bright boys and girls. The boys in my son's class were pretty rough and tumble boys. The teacher regularly chose only VERY "girly" books for the boys to read. I think all children should read all kinds of books. But the teacher intentionally chose, essentially, distasteful literature for this group of boys so that they wouldn't want to read them. When a few parents questioned the teacher about it she said that she chose those books because those boys were so "talented" that they should be able to read whatever she chose. She then continued to say that obviously they weren't so bright because they couldn't manage to "comprehend" her choices. (And whenever I asked my son what he was reading last year, he always said, "I don't know. Some story about princesses/ponies/slumber parties." He would never answer the written reading assessments because the books were "disgusting", lol.)

This is something for parents to watch out for. Others have also experienced a form of this and brought it forward as well. Whereas that teacher may have chosen books about "princess/ponies/slumber parties" which did not match the interests, plans, or growth trajectory of her students, others have similarly assigned selections which were not appropriate for their classroom audiences of readers, including highly s*xualized books and dystopias. It seems to be a type of intellectual hazing.

While it is important for students to stretch themselves and read works written in a voice from a different culture, point of view, and knowledge base, allowing student choice within a genre may ultimately be best practice.

I'm not sure I understand why the chances for accelerated work are necessarily all over for next year - this year's not over. If you after-schooled with the concepts that were missed first semester while the sub was in charge, is there a possibility your dd could test into a higher level of math next year? Will there be any more MAPS testing this year?

polarbear

Our district uses the Winter MAP test to determine eligibility for accelerated curriculum for the next school year. Students with 95% or above qualify for services. 99% in reading and 91% in math does not qualify. Therefore, she will be in a regular classroom.

I have requested some feedback from DD's teacher on this but I've yet to hear anything (even after 3 days).

My problem with the way Math is taught is the teacher sends out a weekly update with the math topic. However, because our district is heavily into ability grouping, what I've discovered is that the update has no correlation to what is being taught in the groups. And there is no homework (the district is very strict on this policy) so it's impossible for me as a parent to be involved unless my DD tells me every detail of what the group talked about which can be difficult because as I stated earlier she is one of the youngest kids in the class and doesn't always have a handle on what is exactly going on. I now feel this is 100% why DD slipped on the test. 2nd grade math is trivial, it makes no sense otherwise. Case in point, 2 weeks ago DD was out for 4 days with severe flu (first absence the entire school year). I asked for work to be sent home with her younger sister who was able to return to school 1 day earlier because she was better. We got a packet but it was all language, only 1 math sheet with very simple problems (count simple money, low level addition, etc.) Took DD 1 minute to do and nothing else. I have no idea what happened with math that week. We just worked on more concepts at home.

This school system seems very hostile to parent involvement. As I mentioned earlier, no volunteers, almost no homework (especially math), and very few papers that ever come home. It is difficult to get responses from teachers in a timely manner. Even though DD is 99% in reading, she has no idea who the girls are in 2nd grade GATE because there is no co-mingling of the kids. We are considering moving.

It seems the earlier posts were about the lack of teaching by the substitute teacher; The current experience is with the regular teacher?

If the district was truly supportive of ability grouping they would presumably incorporate ability grouping into their communications, including the weekly update. There seems to be a disconnect or discrepancy here.

May I ask, is this a high-performing district?

This does not sound consistent with a school believing in ability grouping.

Parents can help bring about change, especially if this is a public school in the US. For example, being informed of the learning outcomes for your DC's ability group in math, having a syllabus or schedule of lessons, receiving a weekly update pertaining to your DC's ability group in math.

Yes, unfortunately, it is now the regular teacher. Since school has been back in session it has been crazy. We missed so much because of the polar vortex and 1 week of flu, it has been very hard for me to get a handle on what's been happening. Everything is now different. DD says there are reading groups and she got moved but she doesn't read any assigned book, only does worksheets. She got moved to a different math group as well. All groups have generic names (red, blue, green, yellow).

The classrooms are each ability grouped. Then they have a special G&T classroom for each grade (with foreign language instruction and accelerated curriculum). The district gives MAP 3 times per year and CogAT and then decides where students will be for the next year. Scores on MAP of 95%+ in reading & math qualifies for inclusion in either the G&T classroom or accelerated work. A high CogAT can get you the same even without MAP scores. I have no idea how this is decided which students are put in the G&T classrooms and which are just left in the regular class.

Yes and very affluent.


Is this tracking? It seems once these kids get in the G&T classroom they stay there.


We do have a Progress report that is updated each quarter. The report shows the skills and a number of 1 to 3 is assigned (3 being mastered, 1 needs improvement). DD got all 3's on only the 1st half of the list (for the first semester). I noticed the area she bombed out on MAP math was not listed until last and I didn't expect it to already be covered on MAP so early (measurement) and completely overlooked it. DD did not know conversion of quarts, liters, ounces, kilos, etc. I was more worried about multiplication/division/fractions. So this is what we studied (which DD did say helped her on some of the test). Other than that, we get a weekly newsletter which states which Math topic they will be working on for the week, but it doesn't seem to match what DD says her group is working on.

I do feel for this teacher in that she's back to work full-time with a 3 month old at home and I don't want to be the bad parent. She has recognized DD's high reading level. DD says she's handing out "think sheets" left and right and made the kids sign contracts that they will complete work because so many are goofing off.

But I do fear that I may have a bad reputation because of my relationship with the sub last semester and word may have gotten out.

I saw some of the kids in G&T at last year's school theater production and I really want DD to be able to interact with that group. It's depressing that they go to the same school everyday but DD doesn't know any of them and I don't really understand why. It's a large district (high school has 4,000 students) and if DD would end up going to school here, I would imagine all those G&T students from all 9 elementaries would be placed in the high level classes together along with all the other super high performers (maybe ones with 99% on everything) and DD may end up lost in the competition. This is what worries me and makes me wonder if a smaller district would be better and if we should move.

You may wish to keep a list of books she reads on her own outside of school, including their lexile levels.

You may wish to know the color-name of her assigned group, and ask DD for names of other kiddos in her group, to invite them for a play date or movie-and-popcorn party, etc. Sometimes parents will stay and visit amongst themselves, rather than just dropping kiddos off.

Ugh! This presumes a one-size-fits-all amongst the gifted kiddos. Some have found it more challenging/supportive to cluster pupils by readiness/ability without regard to age/grade, thereby creating multi-age/multi-grade classes of similar readiness/ability.

Optimally this would be based on a student's developmental needs (readiness/ability).

While this is standard, it provides a history, specific to your child. Meanwhile proactive information with respect to the process would manage expectations and provide transparency. This might include the learning outcomes for your DC's ability group in each subject, having a syllabus or schedule of lessons, receiving a weekly update pertaining to your DC's ability groups (rather than a generic weekly update which does not resemble your daughter's lived experience in the classroom).

This might be something to politely ask about.

Do they have interests in common (clubs, sports, etc) which might bring them together outside of school?

How does your daughter feel about school, friends, etc?

Sorry to leave this thread hanging. This school year has been a challenge and for my own sanity, I had to give it a rest for awhile.

So many good points Indigo. This year I have felt very isolated from DD's school experience. Some parents in the class I do know and unfortunately to say do not really click with them myself. DD doesn't even know the names of the kids in G&T and none live in our neighborhood. None were at music classes even though we go to a prominent studio here locally. The school has over 1,000 children but most activities revolve around sports which DD is not interested in or cannot do due to effects of hypotonia.


She only has 1 friend this year in class. The oldest girl in the class. DD says she's the only one who is nice to her. They both took the CogAT together (even though her friend is 1 year older than DD) - no idea how the other girl did. DD missed too many and only got a 122 and we were told this score did not make the cut for math. We will not get a report until the end of the school year. No idea of what version of test or percentile. No idea if this score means we should give up and accept no acceleration of math.

DD has regressed some (mainly spelling and writing because they use iPads with auto correct!). We enrich after school as her math is way out of alignment from her MAP RIT goals from the beginning of the year. I realized, being somewhat ahead is an awful spot to be. You always get an A on the test and you never need think or spend any time. But you have to come home and take it upon yourself to learn. Sometimes it works and it's OK. Some days it doesn't go as well and you have to accept the shortcomings.

The district high ability coordinator encouraged us to speak with the principal to see what could be done for next year. When we requested a meeting, the principal will only meet with us 3 1/2 weeks from now, practically the end of school. She is new this year and has made changes to G&T. All information about the G&T program and staff has been removed from the school webpage. Unless you have been at the school for some time and know who the teachers are, you would not know the school even had G&T.

I was reading the book Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind by Deborah Ruf. It was interesting and had so much of the same information that I've seen in the threads here over and over. It's probably been recommended by someone but I did not notice it before.

Some of the information in the book worried me. Right at the cusp of 3rd grade with little support from the district, the effect seems magnified to increasingly conform or risk ostracization. Then Losing Our Minds states that the whole of middle school is not about teaching but rather functions for socialization. What lies ahead for those who never quite fit before?

Anyway, Indigo and all others, I do thank you for taking a little of your time to read and respond. It's much appreciated and the information you've all provided along with advice from the advocacy forum has and will continue to help us.

Thanks for the update. While school may be uninspiring at this time, you may wish to keep talking up a positive future in which your kiddo gets to study what she wants to and is interested in. So glad she has one friendly classmate. Many gifted adults share that they first found "their tribe" in college/university. Having something to look forward to helps immensely. Both parents and kids often find intellectual affirmation through books. While hypotonia may keep your DC from sports, is there a form of dance or yoga which she may enjoy?

If your daughter has interest, keep seeking out fun ways to learn at home, through games, an extracurricular group activity, or competition.

Some families have fun choosing a word of the day (or week) for each other and discussing meaning and spelling. There are great books on etymology, word prefixes/roots/suffixes.

Yes, this is the trap, and it is so easy to be lulled into complacency.

Your child is very fortunate to have a tuned-in parent!

I've been hearing this frequently.

Camps and summer classes can be ways of finding academic/intellectual peers.

If you believe social skills could be improved, there are wonderful books... if your kiddo is more mature and is mentally occupied with things more in tune with older kids, extracurricular activities may provide an opportunity to mix with older kids.

Whatever your kiddo is interested in... from collecting soil samples, to bug identification, to astronomy, to looking at things under a microscope and sketching them... just being mentally occupied can be powerful medicine, and help form a sense of personal identity. You may wish to create a portfolio of kiddo's interests/accomplishments. Great to review and bolster one's spirit when in a plateau phase.

Hang in there! You are not alone.

Another update in this thread.

DD7 took the first portion of the end of year MAP test in the regular testing lab and did well on math (up to 227) putting her at 99%.

Math is taken first.

Then, she took reading. Her score took a huge hit. She had been at 99 and fell to 90th with a growth of only 2 points for the whole year. I asked what happened. It seems the teacher singled her out to take the reading portion in the general classroom instead of the testing lab like all the other students and was rushing her. All the kids were talking, some were put to use stapling papers and making banging noises, and there were so many distractions she said she couldn't concentrate at all. She bombed.

I feel it was intentional sabotage and I'm very upset about it.

This is a teacher who told me over the phone that DD could not do division when I complained the work was not challenging for her and that she was bored. She also made DD cry in front of the class when she lost one of her spelling lists and gave me a call at home to try and get me to denigrate DD as well.

School is now out. I didn't understand what happened until I saw DD's test results in her folder when she came home on the last day. I'm not sure what can be done. I would like to see some disciplinary action, but DH says it would never happen.

I'm just disgusted with the whole thing. We had a horrible year.