I am a 15 year old in the 9th grade. My parents have tried to have me enrolled in Pine View School (currently 6th top high school in the United States), but my IQ is not high enough to be labeled as gifted (IQ requirement is 130 I believe). I am a high achieving student. Freshman year my classes include: Spanish 2, Band, AP Human Geography, Biology Honors, Health Science, English 1 Honors, Algebra 2 Honors, Geometry Honors (taking online), and HOPE (Health and physical education, finished the course online). I have gotten a perfect score (150/150) on the Math PERT (Postsecondary Education Readiness Test)and passed the Reading and Writing portion in order to get into Dual Enrollment English (typically an 11th grade class). My report card:
Quarter 1
Spanish 2 97
Band 99
AP Human Geography 86
Biology Honors 97
Health Science 96
English 1 Honors 100
Algebra 2 Honors 100

Quarter 2
Spanish 2 93
Band 98
AP Human Geography 90
Biology Honors 100
Health Science 100
English 1 Honors 100
Algebra 2 Honors 100

Quarter 3
Spanish 2 94
Band 100
AP Human Geography 91
Biology Honors 100
Health Science 93
English 1 Honors 100
Algebra 2 Honors 100

Last year, on FCAT (Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test) I scored a 4.5 on Writing, 5 on Math (perfect score), 5 on Reading (1 wrong), and 5 on Science (2 wrong).
I am really passionate about school, learning, and education. I was in (in terms of extracurriculars) Academic Olympics, Speech and Debate, and MAT (Mu Alpha Theta, basically a math honors society) this year. I am left handed and for some reason I heard that left handed people generally score lower on IQ tests. I am genuinely curious as to why I can achieve good grades and scores on tests, but not be gifted. I would appreciate some input on my situation. Thank you!

Jenny,

WOW!! You are very accomplished. Those are amazing grades.

Just because your IQ doesn't make the "gifted" score the school requires doesn't necessarily mean your score is low. In fact, wth the WISC IV, 123 is still considered gifted.

In life, the "score" doesn't really matter. Look at those grades as proof that success is a combination of drive and passion. You are intelligent. Of course you are.

I also read somewhere on this site that for an older student such as yourself, achievement scores begin to have more meaning than IQ assessments.

Even the current president of the country has an IQ that wouldn't be considered 'gifted'. Don't get hung up on the IQ score. The 'optimal' IQ is supposedly just South of 'gifted' anyway.

The 'dirty little secret' is that nobody really cares about IQ - no college will admit you solely on the basis of it and no employer will ever do it either. People look at achievements and you have them in spades

I totally agree with KADmom - your achievements are wonderful!!! The last thing on earth I'd focus on is that IQ # - and to be honest, if it's keeping you out of a school that you really want to attend - I'd advocate like crazy to try to get accepted - you may be able to do it even with the one IQ test that doesn't quite meet the admissions criteria. If you want some ideas on how to advocate for it, let us know.

And is it possible to be a super-high achiever without a super-high IQ? Absolutely. Please don't let this one thing discourage you - keep on plugging away and try to get into the school you're hoping to get into! And if that doesn't work out, you might find another school program that is every bit as good

And... just out of curiosity - can you tell us which IQ test you had? I'm just curious if it was either the WISC/SB-5/WJ-III or if it was something like the CogAT. Not all the tests advertised as "IQ" tests are necessarily innate IQ tests... and the tests our local high schools use as screeners are not the WISC/etc... so I can totally imagine a student here coming away from testing thinking their IQ was XYZ when in fact they hadn't really even had an IQ test.

Best wishes,

polarbear

madeinuk and I were posting at the same time so I didn't see this until I posted... but fwiw I *totally* agree with this - I have no idea what my IQ is, and no one in the real live adult world has ever asked. The key to getting the jobs I applied for and into the programs I wanted to be included in were the achievements listed on my resume - and you've got a GREAT start on that!

polarbear

No one knows what the current President's IQ score is. All possible scores are guesses based on the fact that he graduated from Law School, or his SAT scores, etc. Here is a quote from Wikianswers that sums up some people's thinking on the issue.

Note: To many professionals in the 'IQ' field , this discussion is utterly absurd. We have no idea what Barack Obama's IQ is, but nobody with even a rudimentary understanding of what IQ means and how it is determined would suggest that any of the estimations methods (school grades and positions held at college) described in the answer have any validity whatsoever.

Michelle skipped 2nd grade so I suspect she must be PG!

I've heard this too.

So why is this?

Speaking for myself, I was never matched with the right curriculum at an early age and a number of things happened. My perfectionism developed (never had to struggle through adversity), I became socially ostracized (nobody likes that weirdly smart kid that the teachers fuss over), boredom and restlessness led to anger, my extremely sensitive nature caused me to react strongly to things that others didn't, like justice and cruelty, etc. I was like an alien... always either on the verge of tears or completely numb. It was awful. I just couldn't identify with the other kids. By the time I reached high school I absolutely hated public education and I wanted nothing more to do with it.

That's just my story... maybe there are others here who can chime in with reasons why the "non-gifted" (assuming you really are that, and your test scores weren't wrong, because that can happen too) can out-achieve the ones who test higher.

Someone with a lower IQ might not be as mismatched at a young age and get off to a better start, for one.

There are other qualities that accompany giftedness that can really throw a wrench into things, like obsession with details, intensity, anxiety, sensory issues that cause concentration problems, social awkwardness, etc etc.

Jenny it seems ridiculously unfair that you can't get into Pine View because of an arbitrary test score, but know this: you're off to a great start with your education. Just keep doing what you're doing, because clearly you have it figured out

Best of luck

Hello CCN,

My story was exactly like yours. Nonetheless, I never took a single Honors or AP class because I felt as though I would be wasting my time, regardless of the environs. I preferred to skip class and read Hume, Nietszche, or Victor Hugo instead--they became my best friends.

What was the point in attending classes if all you encounter is a low level of stimulation, ostracism, and isolation?

Jenny: You are obviously very intelligent and will go far in life; I have no doubt. You have everything you need to engender your own success and encounter those who can assist you in the process

I can relate My DD10 as well... her appetite for reading interferes with her homework. I can't really object (I guess I "should," but... sigh)

Jenny, the other thing to remember is that an IQ test is one measure taken at one particular space in time. Were you tired, thirsty, getting sick, anxious, having a bad day? They can all affect your score.

If you can't advocate your way into this school, perhaps you can take a different IQ test in hopes it will catch you on a better day. Obviously you're a great student, so it doesn't matter whether you have a high IQ or not (of course you do!). But if this one score is keeping you out of your dream school, consider other testing options.

If the school doesn't want you based on IQ score alone...maybe you don't want them. Not all schools are good matches. Find another that evaluates the global makeup of a student.

Jenny: Achievement comes from an intersection of ability, opportunity, and effort. If you're of slightly less ability, but taking full advantage of your opportunities, and putting forth a little more effort, that doesn't detract from your achievements in any way. In fact, this makes you quite a bit "smarter" than any of your peers who may be trying to squeak by based only on a higher ability.

I wouldn't worry about not getting into a top high school if I were you. It sounds like things are going wonderfully right where you're at.

Also, you didn't tell us what IQ test you took, or the score. It may very well be that you're selling yourself short.

Furthermore, "not gifted" does not equal "low IQ." An IQ of 130 only occurs in ~2% of the population, or once in every 44 individuals. If you're still in the top 5-15% (and your achievement suggests you are), then your IQ is still quite high.

Others have already explained why "ideally intelligent" is actually a BETTER thing than being highly gifted is.

Think of it this way-- is it "better" to be neurotypical? Or to be on the autistic spectrum? It depends on what you mean, right?

If this is a school for highly gifted students, then (and I mean this in the best possible way)... it may not be a good fit for you if you are "ideally intelligent."

No more than a really, REALLY awesome school for students with Apserger's syndrome (if such a thing exists-- I don't know) would be a good fit for a neurotypical and highly functional student would be.

A "great" school is only great if you fit the target student demographic dead center of the distribution. Do keep that in mind.

As others have noted, your data all seems to indicate that you are doing terrifically well right where you are!

Like others who have posted before me, I can explain what the difference is between high achievement and gifted behavior looks like all too well.

You might be gifted/highly gifted:


Reading because you are procrastinating, since that other unpleasant/trivial/meaningless task is just "busywork" anyway, and then having to RUSH to finish it. Sloppily/badly.

Nobody laughs at your "weird" jokes.

People call you a "freak" because of your interests.

You make people uncomfortable unless you hide how easy things are for you. You have to LIE about how long things take, or what grades you earned.

When you make the effort, you ALWAYS get 100%. Unless, you know, you get into that mode where you spend time overthinking the simple questions because you can't quite get into the not-too-bright teacher's head to see what s/he was actually thinking when s/he wrote the questions.

You are continuously impatient with how slow other people seem to think/process information.

__________________________________

As another question for our OP-- how would you feel if you DID get in to this other school, and found that you were now, officially, one of the "slow" kids?

Do consider that. It can be hard to be a high achiever and suddenly find yourself surrounded by people who are world class high achievers. I've seen that before in college students and graduate students. Some people adjust fine, and others don't; a lot depends on how invested the individual is in "I'm one of the 'smart' kids" as their identity.

Side point: I'm not sure that everyone who skips a grade is PG, FWIW. I have a dd who started as the absolute youngest in grade and who skipped a grade and she is not PG. My grandmother started K at 4, turned 5 in October, and skipped both 3rd and 5th grade and also may not have been PG, although she was pretty darn smart.

As what I would call a 'natural born heretic' I do not subscribe as so many psuedo-intelligent folks do to the 'Obama personality cult' that the mainstream media has manufactured.

I do remember Obama's IQ scores being bandied around by the media and the number 127 sticks in my mind. If I remember correctly, that number was extrapolated from an 'Ivy average SAT' (my quotes) or something. As he (or at least his very slick campaign machine) have locked up the actual SAT scores, who knows what the actual objectively measured level of his cognitive ability is?

IMO, anyone that hides their credentials/test results etc is suspect automatically. It just boggles my mind that for 'mere mortals' to get a paying job they have to consent to searches of their background, credit rating, university transcripts etc but a person purportedly working *for* us doesn't have to make these details public. But there you have our rotten and almost completely unrepresentative of the masses political system.

End of rant - mods feel free to delete if too political.

Transcripts, yes; credit rating, yes; background checks, yes; tax returns, yes; but IQ test scores, no, at least IMHO. I don't think that any of us has to reveal our IQ scores, which aren't set in stone anyway, for any job or office. The only place that ever requested my IQ scores to participate/join/get the "job" was Mensa. Similarly, DYS requires them. Jobs, even public servant jobs, do not require one to reveal that IQ scores - again IMHO. Heck, most of the population has never taken an IQ test anyway!

Back to the OP so we don't side track too much! I've never heard anything like this and, anecdotally, all of the left handed people in my family are just as bright, if not brighter, than the rest of my family members. An article in Scientific American quotes studies that find pretty much identical IQs between right and left handed folks overall:


I wonder if what you heard was someone mistaking the studies that find higher rates of left handedness among those with mental retardation and learning disabilities, neither of which I can imagine applies to you given your achievement. That same SA article notes this finding.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-it-true-that-left-handed-people

My guess on this is twofold:

1) your IQ isn't likely "low" per se, just perhaps not in the top 2% that is considered "gifted." People with IQs in the top range of where most people fall (IQs around 110-115) can be very, very high achievers but not gifted. 66% of people have IQ scores within one standard deviation of the mean, meaning that 66% of people have IQ scores between 85-115 and would be considered "average." None the less, the performance of someone with an IQ of 115 will be stellar as compared to someone more toward the bottom or center of that "average" range. I've seen kids with IQs that are not dramatically above 100 (105 or so) perform in the top 1-5% of their grade with high motivation and because they are a really good fit for how schools are designed. I think that this article explains it well:
http://www.giftededucation.org.nz/documents/high-achievers-pdf.pdf

As she describes it, gifted is not differentiated from bright, high achiever on the surface by the gifted being higher achievers, but by the gifted being ones who learn differently and who may fit less well into the school setting and perhaps perform less "highly" as a result:

2) Perhaps you are someone with a lot of internal drive and drive really counts for a lot. Work ethic often counts for more than sheer ability. Is it also possible that you are on the older end for grade? In general, and I feel like a heretic saying this here b/c a lot of us (me included) have kids who are intentionally very young for grade some due to grade skips, people who are older for grade tend to perform more highly than the younger kids in the early grades and, often, that leads toward being tracked into high achieving classes and a self fulfilling prophecy where the older kids continue to perform better.

Another possibility is that the IQ test you took just didn't fully represent your ability. IQ tests have been knows to be wrong at times.

I only brought it up to show that you can succeed even with a < 'gifted' IQ and the number that I remember being bandied around was 127 which is in the 'optimal IQ' band, I think And becoming the POTUS is success beyond dispute. I never said that he ought to reveal his IQ test scores - I don't care about them one jot. I do think that his SAT scores and his transcripts ought to be available for public (his purported employers after all) scrutiny. Sorry, but I have such a strong reaction to double standards and overt hypocrisy.

Back to the OP - I don't think we need any 'studies' to tell us what commonsense does - that a strong drive to succeed, a fair helping of luck and a solid work ethic combined will always trump raw natural ability in just about everything (except IQ tests ). And as I posted earlier, IQ tests are just about irrelevant to everyday life.

It doesn't just apply to 'book learning' either - it is just as valid in other fields of endeavour. I still vividly remember the guy in Hoop Dreams that was just dripping natural ability but ended up as a car park attendant because he didn't appear to have enough drive to put up with and attend to what his coach was telling him.

Jenny--

You have everything you need to possibly succeed.

High intelligence, phenomenal motivation and intrinsic interest trumps "profound giftedness" under any circumstances.

As a 23 year old college student, I have a iq of 170 and it is not an easy way to live.

I feel a ubiquitous sense of loneliness, pervasive frustration (that I keep to myself) with the facile nature of my classes, and I cannot take multiple choices well because I have a poor habit of questioning everything and a minimal ability to understand precisely what the professor seeks.

I rarely sleep because of my research that takes over my every thought; I also end up putting this before my own assignments (which obviously does not breed the best success with my grades).

I keep a lot to myself on efforts expended on course assignments, and make a conscientious effort to talk about "normal" things--my family cannot understand my interests and even seem to fear my abnormal fascination for mathematics, psychology, and modern physics. Overall, the sense of boredom and lack of challenge overwhelms much of my life.

Jenny, the point of this is to tell you that being a "genius"--quotes indicate the inherently subjective nature of this--bodes many problems as well that are not often discussed or regarded. You are perfect exactly as you are, and you have no need to change what you are doing. Keep up with your extracurricular activities, phenomenal coursework, and social endeavors. You are going to be a great success!

I don't recall ever being asked to provide any transcripts or test scores as a condition of employment. Anyone else?

Uhhhh... transcripts?

I still have to provide them for ANY professional position that I apply for in academia, and I'm in my early 40's.

I guess I could see why academia would be the exception.

Anyone outside academia?

Last time I was asked was grad school application... And then for some post grad studies, which is to be expected. Never for employment.

I was asked for transcripts when applying for teaching spanish at private schools--obviously it was relevant. Otherwise, no.

Jenny,

If you check back in, you have a lot of great feedback. Perhaps you and your parents need to find a school that is a better fit for you where you will be valued for what you bring to the table - high intellect, discipline, ability to perform within a prescribed set of rules, etc.

For what it is worth, I have three children with gifted IQ's. None of them have cared one whit about their grades unless it was a required stepping stone to do something they did care about. Being gifted, in and of itself, is not a ticket to success in any field, so don't get hung up on the IQ requirement.

Just focus on finding the best fit where you can thrive and develop your talents so you're ready to do what you want to do with the rest of your life when school is finished.

Law firms often want them.

I think that's only if you aren't bringing in a book of business, though.