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Posted By: solaris WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 04:13 AM
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Posted By: frannieandejsmom Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 04:27 AM
From what I have read, the SB-LM is an old test with old norms (1970's). The test is not relevant to today's standards
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 01:09 PM
I'd go with the extended norms on the WISC as well if they apply for a few reasons. Some of them I have mentioned on the other thread about the mom whose kiddo was just tested @ the GDC on both the WPPSI and the SB-LM. The other is, whatever one feels about the LM, it is a lot harder to use for advocacy b/c virtually no one takes it anymore for admission to programs, etc. unless they are completely unfamiliar with IQ tests. You won't be able to use it to apply to DYS, if that is a possibility either.

I can, sort of, see the point when we're talking about the current WPPSI which, I don't think, has extended norms, but in the case of the WISC-IV, and I assume the same will be true of the WISC-V, the extended norms exist. Even for the WPPSI, that won't be an issue soon anyway b/c the newer version should be on the market within months I believe and I'm pretty sure that Dr. Ruf and the GDC as well as others assisted in developing extended norms for that. I think that the same group helped with the development of extended norms for the WISC-IV as well so I'm not sure why they've clung to the LM either.
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by solaris
1. Are the Wisc IV extended norms scores comparable to SBLM scores because both go up to 200+? A tester who is quite respected in my area advised me against testing my son on the SBLM because she said it will not differ much from the Ex. Norms on the Wisc IV. I am not doubting her exactly, just wondering how this is possible when both tests are not equal?
Oh, and in realizing that I didn't really say anything about this, no, I don't think that they are comparable. The WISC and the SB-LM use different methods for calculating IQ. The LM used a ratio IQ whereas modern tests use a deviation IQ.

Essentially, a ratio IQ was mental age divided by chronological age whereas deviation IQ looks at how much one deviates from the norm or where one falls on the bell curve. It tells you more how one compares to his age peers and is just a totally different way of figuring IQ. See this explanation: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQBasics.aspx
Posted By: MumOfThree Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 02:00 PM
I would not be testing my child on the SBLM, but in terms of whether they are the same - the SBV manual has a table comparing the SB5 and SBLM scores of a range of children, it clearly shows that there was a significant difference between the scores obtained for the two tests... Children scoring high, but not in the range that would attract extended norms on the SB5 were scoring 170+ on the SBLM. If I remember correctly most children scoring 140+ on the SBV had scored 170+ on the SBLM. The 146 WISC kid quite possibly IS a 183 SBLM kid.... I just don't see any point to the SBLM anymore though, I don't understand why it is still being used.
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by Dottie
I'm a fan of testing to open doors. If a child tests 143, and needs 145 for a program that you absolutely feel he would benefit from, by all means test again. But if the kid scores 146, I'd move on. It really does become more about what the child continues to do in time, than some number on some day.
Yes, that's exactly it. Kids with the same IQ scores are going to have different needs in reality. Whether the 145 kid who needs more educationally and otherwise than another 145 kid actually has a higher IQ, maybe, but it probably doesn't matter. There are few, if any programs, that have a cut above 145 or so. If a child hits that point, the doors are open and it is then up to the child, time, and whatever other factors come into play to figure out what more needs to be done for that child.

I believe that the GDC's opinion is that the LM numbers help tease out how gifted a child is when you are dealing with that tail end. I guess that I'd like to see some hard data that supports that b/c I'm just not convinced. The chart from Hoagies that I posted on the other thread shows some significant variance btwn more modern Weschler scores and LM scores but there were kids with 145 WISC/WPPSI scores scoring the same on the LM as kids with 112 WISC/WPPSI scores. That would lend toward either saying that the modern Weschler tests can't distinguish bright or MG from PG at all or that the LM is not a good way of teasing out LOG at this point, IMHO.

Posted By: Cricket2 Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Dottie
Solaris, in reading back, I see your kid did make DYS cuts on the WISC-IV.
My kids are being lazy and sleeping in and dh is at work (I'm off today), so I'm spending too much time goofing off here. Dottie's comment made me go back and look @ your old posts and I see that your ds is already in DYS and was tested on the WISC-IV maybe a year ago (?). What is the purpose of retesting now other than the prior tester was inexperienced and he may not have gotten totally accurate scores? Would higher scores do anything for him or change something in terms of what you are doing for him?
Posted By: kaibab Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Cricket2
Yes, that's exactly it. Kids with the same IQ scores are going to have different needs in reality. Whether the 145 kid who needs more educationally and otherwise than another 145 kid actually has a higher IQ, maybe, but it probably doesn't matter. There are few, if any programs, that have a cut above 145 or so. If a child hits that point, the doors are open and it is then up to the child, time, and whatever other factors come into play to figure out what more needs to be done for that child.


I agree. I'm not convinced about the LM either, but I have also heard many, many parents tell exactly the same story as solaris mentions. I continue to wonder why the test is used, but since most parents are happy to test more to figure out the "real" gifted level of their child, it does make for happy customers.

I wonder about the consequences of parents with very young children being told of 170+ IQs and how the child is super unique and will require an atypical educational situation. Being a part of PG parent communities has allowed me to see that personality, opportunity, choices, and focus matters a great deal and PG kids thrive or fail to thrive in a variety of educational environments. I don't think the IQ predicts educational needs beyond what can be seen from updated tests.

I found this excerpt from Konigsberg's 2006 New Yorker piece pretty compelling:
Originally Posted by Konigsberg
Since 1979, Silverman's testing facility and practice, the Gifted Development Center, has given nine hundred and eleven children I.Q. scores of 160 or above, including sixty-four in the 200s. Unless almost every young genius in the country is coming through her office, then, she is recording a far higher incidence of profoundly gifted children than the statistical distribution of I.Q. results should allow. The particular I.Q. test that Silverman, almost alone among her peers, relies on may have something to do with this. Although she begins each assessment with one of the more widely employed I.Q. tests, when a child scores extremely high Silverman goes to the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale, Form L-M.
The Stanford-Binet was first developed in 1916, and enjoyed the status of the most widely accepted I.Q. test through three iterations, up to and including the Form L-M. The Form L-M (after the first names of its authors, Lewis Terman and Maud Merrill) came out in 1960, was updated in 1972, and then was replaced in 1986, by the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale, Fourth Edition. The update was never well liked by psychometricians, and several more recently developed tests, such as the Stanford-Binet Fifth Edition and the current Woodcock-Johnson exam, are considered more comprehensive and reliable. Silverman uses the Form L-M because it's the only version that officially calculates scores above 160. "There's nothing else to use with kids this gifted," she told me. But some critics of the test say that it not only assesses higher scores; it tends to produce them. "The Form L-M uses children from several decades ago as its comparison group, so of course the scores are going to skew much higher if it's used on today's kids--every generation of children is more academically and environmentally advanced than the previous generation," Susan Assouline, the associate dean of the gifted-education program at the University of Iowa, said. "It's not a useful test in this day and age."

There is more discussion of the SBLM use, particularly in the comments, at: giftedexchange
Posted By: Dbat Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 03:12 PM
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I've been looking around and can't figure it out--is it valid to calculate a GAI using the WISC-IV extended norms, or do you have to stick with the 'regular' scores (i.e., max 19) when calculating GAI? It seems like you should be able to add up the extended norm numbers for the GAI calculation, but I can't find anything that says that.
Posted By: Dbat Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 03:59 PM
Thanks, Dottie! I've been trying to figure that out for awhile smile
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by kaibab
I found this excerpt from Konigsberg's 2006 New Yorker piece pretty compelling
The entire New Yorker article can be read here: http://positivedisintegration.com/newyorker.pdf

It is very sad and also an interesting read.
Posted By: Iucounu Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 08:15 PM
My personal take: I don't think there will be much actual value in testing with the SB-LM. What you'll get perhaps is one tester, who after the whole world has gone on to other more modern tests continues to use the SB-LM, giving her personal opinion on how your child stacks up to other children to whom she's given questionable numbers as well, in the context of a sample of children from forty years ago. (I didn't realize it was that old-- good grief!)

I would never, after reading the linked article, pay money for the SB-LM. I might take it if the testing were free, and take the results with a huge grain of salt. I might also consider using other tests, like the SB-5 or retesting with the WISC-IV but a better tester-- and I might want to do this even if I got the SB-LM testing for free.

If after retesting with a modern test your son's PRI or equivalent subtests are still relatively lower, I'd probably shrug and chalk it up to a quirk of his makeup that he's either making more use of verbal reasoning skills than you think, or his visual-spatial skills aren't exposed well by IQ tests.

Aside from identifying learning disabilities or for use in advocacy, I don't think that a few numbers from IQ tests, and the personal feelings of a tester who sees a child for such a brief time, are really all that helpful in making parenting decisions. They are interesting, but not necessary or really all that helpful.
Posted By: Cricket2 Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 09:55 PM
Have you given a try with AOPS' Alcumus for supplemental math (http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Alcumus/Introduction.php)? I don't know if it is too easy for him, but it looks like it might be around the right level based on what you're saying and it is free.

My kids are not as mathy are yours or Dottie's, but I do have to say that puberty made no difference in my dd13's interests or speed of acquisition of knowledge in her strong areas and passion areas. Sorry wink!
Posted By: MumOfThree Re: WiscIV Extended Norms vs SBLM - 07/04/12 10:43 PM
I agree with Dottie's arguement for not retesting. But if you do feel compelled to do it I would consider the sb5. Both my girls I would have said were stronger or equal in PRI, but tested lower in this area, particularly the cartoon based subtests. I dont know why. Both girls were retested on the SB5, one because she is 2e and was "due" for reassessment and one because we knew the first test was "wrong" and school was being difficult. Both had nearly identical Verbal scores on both tests. Miss 2e's NV moved from somewhere in the 80s to 99th percentile, in her case this partly reflected the impact of remediation but I am also certain the test simply suited her better. Miss HG+ had her NV improve by 9 points, including a 19 and an 18 in the NV, taking it one point higher than the verbal, that score made a lot more sense for her.

In both girls the better tester and faster pace helped, but I also feel the test simply suites both of them better. There is an Australian study comparing the wppsi and sb5 that shows that most children scored in the same ball park for both tests, with some children scoring significantly higher on one test, but there was no pattern as to which test scored higher, which test was administered first etc, it was either an issue of the kid having a bad day or finding one test being a better match. I seem to recall pretty much all the children enjoyed the SB more, even the ones who did better on the WPPSI.
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