Hello!

I'm wondering if many of you have experience with the Johns Hopkins and/or Duke Talent Searches. These are the searches where primarily 7th graders take either the SAT or the ACT (above-level testing), and approximately 1/2 of those (probably already very bright group) kids qualify for their programs.

My understanding is that the programs are largely summer camps, with intensive academic subjects. For many children, these camps are supposed to provide a rare & wonderful opportunity for academically-oriented children to bond with other kids who share a lot of their interests, and I've only read very positive things about the camps themselves.

My own son is in 7th grade, and so I signed him up, and he did take the SAT a week and a half ago. I am sure, from the one practice test he took, that he will qualify. However, I realized months ago that he has no interest in attending the camps. Since I had already registered him for the SAT, we decided to send him to take the SATS anyway.

But I am wondering, are there any true benefits that people have experienced from the talent searches, if you weren't interested in following through with the camp? I know that if they score over 700 on any section, they qualify for SET (Study of Exceptional Talent), but even reading through that, it seems like the only tangible benefit is a periodic newsletter. Just curious if there are any truly valuable things that we might look forward to, from participating.

Thanks so much!!

PS One mistake I made--so a little tip for those of you with 6th graders and younger--I signed him up to take it at the closest location, which is our town high school. There were a couple of kids there that knew my son from their younger siblings, so naturally they went home and said they saw him there, and we got curious questions about it (nothing offensive, just curious about why he was taking it). Not a big deal, but if I could do it over, I would have driven him 10 minutes further to a different district, to avoid that.

The chapter "Talent Searches and Accelerated
Programming for Gifted Students" in volume 2 of A Nation Deceived http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/ND_v2.pdf
makes recommendations (quoted below) on acceleration and enrichment based on talent search SAT or ACT scores. If your son scores high enough he should at least consider grade acceleration or early college.

PROGRAM RECOMMENDATION BASED ON SAT I OR ACT PERFORMANCE RANGES
TABLE 4.
A Range
230–470 on SAT-V
200–510 on SAT-M
OR
0–21 on ACT-Eng or ACT-Read
0–17 on ACT-Math
Program options should include:
1. Long-range academic planning, following
Sequence 1 in area of academic strength
2. Early access to advanced school courses
3. Supplement coursework with
enrichment-oriented school, Saturday, or
summer programs
4. Early career counseling
5. Sequence 1 of “Recommended Course
Sequences”

B Range
480–580 on SAT-V
520–600 on SAT-M
OR
22–27 on ACT-Eng or ACT-Read
18–23 on ACT-Math
Program options should include:
1. Long-range academic planning, following
Sequence 2 of “Recommended Course
Sequences” in area of academic strength
2. Fast-paced school, Saturday, or summer
classes in area of strength, using
“curriculum compacting” to compress
courses into shorter time frames.
3. Early access to college-level coursework
through Advanced Placement (AP),
distance-learning, dual-enrollment, or
summer courses.
4. Early career counseling, including access
to mentorships, tutorials, and internships.

C Range
580+ on SAT-V
600+ on SAT-M
OR
28+ on ACT-Eng or ACT-Read
24+ on ACT-Math
Program options should include:
Options 1–4 from B Range, plus:
5. Individualized program of study, using
“test-out” approach in areas of strength.
This helps advanced students avoid
spending time on material they already
know.
6. Consider grade acceleration (grade
skipping) or early admission to college
7. Individualized work with a mentor
to pursue advanced study in an area,
possibly aimed at a specific AP exam.

Our DS1 took the ACT in 7th grade thru Duke TIP & qualified for a State-Level Award (though 20+ students at his school also qualified, so it wasn't a "big deal" to the school). The state awards ceremony was held at our flagship state university and it was a nice event for DS1 to attend, along w/DH. The state U also offered an AM program & lunch - program focused on issues impacting high-ability kids in today's society - and we paid to attend, but then DS had a state soccer game & had to miss everything except the ceremony itself :-( However, he enjoyed knowing that his 7th grade ACT scores were high enough to enroll in the state U right then & there. So the ceremony & the insight into his abilities were worth the trouble to test, IMO. He did not prep, though he looked over the pamphlet sent by Duke TIP prior to the test. We cannot afford the summer programs - and they are typically a great distance from our area, anyway. We still get occasional newsletters, I believe.

DS2 (6th grade) recently took the EXPLORE thru Duke TIP. I have no idea what, if anything, he will receive in terms of recognition. Not sure 6th graders are even honored and we have received very little info from TIP. Not sure about summer programs, either, but cost & distance are still the prohibitive factors.

All-in-all, I would definitely recommend these talent search programs. If nothing else, your child gets a "preview" of testing that will be a real focus in high school. And maybe a medal, too. Higher-scoring students can also attend a national award ceremony at Duke, so that is likely a neat experience!

Bostonian - I remember seeing similar info that came from Duke TIP along w/DS1's scores! I have to chuckle because, based on DS1 being in the B/C range, I emailed the school to see if he might...possibly...maybe...even be considered for eval into the gifted program. I didn't ask that he be tested - just that the process might be explored for him. I'm sure they had a good laugh over my email & then the note came back that many (many, many) students at our school receive such scores and such scores alone would not be cause to initiate exploration. DS scored higher than most of his friends in the gifted program, but that meant nothing.

In our district, they definitely spend more energy keeping students out of the gifted program than evaluating them for placement.

So, to the OP, if your student scores in the high range, you may or may not get any additional support from the school. But you still obtain valuable info, as does your child.

Hi -

Ds12's school encourages qualified students to take the EXPLORE, ACT and SAT every year through a talent search, but I stopped signing him up for it last year and registered him for the SAT through our local high school instead. My main beef with the program is that the 'analysis' that comes back with the scores is generic, and IMO not worth the money, especially since score comparisons and analysis are available online for free.

The money we saved was more than enough to pay for the SAT's question-and-answer service, which seemed way more useful.

My main purpose in having him take out-of-level tests has been not to use the scores to advocate, but to track improvement year to year, to be sure he's in a good learning environment.

Ds hasn't gone to any of the summer camps, but has taken 3 online courses through the talent search program, and for the most part we've been pleased with them.

One benefit of SET you may not be aware of: members can order a CD containing reviews of dozens of colleges, submitted by SET alums. I will order it in a couple of years for ds, so he can find out what kids with abilities and interests similar to his think about some of the schools he's interested in.

I have limited experience with both Duke TIP & CTY - that's why I'm here!! My dd13 (7th grade) took the SAT in January through Duke TIP. We did it mostly because her public middle school kept giving her high school math placement tests and she kept getting perfect scores, so I signed her up for the SAT through Duke. She wanted to do it for "fun" - I wanted her to do it just so I would have a better idea as to how advanced she was.

Without doing any studying for the test, she scored over 700 on both math and critical reading. She was very proud and could finally say "I told you so". For the past two years she was very depressed and bored in school. With these results she feels like she has finally been vindicated.

She is excited about the possibilities that Duke and CTY open up for her. We are a bit overwhelmed with the options and don't really know where to go from here (the Duke & CTY programs are expensive!). Her school principal didn't even know that SAT testing for 7th graders was an option (!) - and although the school doesn't deny that dd is "advanced" - they can't offer much beyond subject and/or grade advancement (she is already taking high school math - but is still bored).

We are in California (the SF Bay Area), but our public schools provide minimal gifted programming... in fact, our District's policy is that ALL kids can take the advanced classes, even if they don't have the ability. It's very frustrating for the kids who do have the ability.

Back to your original question, so far, our Duke/CTY involvement has been very limited, but my dd's excitement and "relief" at knowing that she is a part of a group of kids who are "different" has been well worth it. Even though we haven't actually met any of these other kids yet - just knowing that they exist seems to have really energized her. I would love to know more about other's experiences with these programs too, because we just don't know where to go from here.

Is this analysis different from what the testing company provides? My DD12 took Explore through school, not talent search. They had a section about how to improve your scores in a particular area. It seemed like a generic discussion that they tacked onto all results. DD had two sections where she had perfect scores so the "improve your scores" rhetoric didn't make sense. It made her dismiss the whole comment section as "lame." I was wondering if the talent search provided anything different.

Our DS (12 years, 6th grade) took EXPLORE this Feb thru Duke TIP. He also had 2 areas of the test with no errors. All we received was the actual report from ACT and, on the back, there were several generic suggestions for "score improvement." DS's composite score was 24 out of 25, so that seemed decent to me, but we have yet to hear anything from Duke TIP. It seems we received more info from the 7th grade talent search than from the 4th/5th grade search. And, in our case, none of the info we received - even the scores - would make a difference to the school district. Perhaps scores would help with advocacy in other districts, however.

I didn't keep the talent search's 'Planning and Resource Guide', unfortunately, so I can't compare it to what the testing company sends - maybe someone else here can give more detail.

But I remember it divided scores into three levels and made short- and long-term curriculum recommendations for each, very similar to what Bostonian cites earlier in this thread.

It seemed to me, as you say, to be 'tacked on' to the results. My kids and I have never paid attention to anything but the scores themselves -- how they compare with the previous years' scores, and how they stack up to the scores of peers; and that info, as well as analysis very similar to what talent searches provide, is available online at no cost.

I suppose the recommendations, since they mention things like acceleration, could be used in advocating with school staff, but I've never done it.

Yes, Duke's recommendations are at http://www.tip.duke.edu/talent_searches/grade_7/7GTSResultsSummary.pdf .

The TIP talent searches qualify kids for a number of programs, not just the in-person summer camps away. My son hasn't done the camps, but has done a TIP online course (taught by a real person, not a solely computerized course) and really enjoyed the experience: benefits to him include meeting some geographically and culturally diverse friends that he still keeps in touch with online, getting experience doing really advanced work in a community of intellectual peers, and getting a great source for teacher recommendations to colleges and other programs from a teacher who has seen what he can do in a true college-level environment.

I wonder if the CD at http://cty.jhu.edu/imagine/about/college_reviews.html , which can be purchased by anyone, is the same thing.

DD took the SAT as a talent search. She scored in the B/C range. She attends a 7 -12 school. Prior to the results we were having difficulties with her English/Humanities classes. Once we showed her scores we were given a lot more flexibility in her classes. The school district does not allow middle schoolers in high school classes except in math and foreign languages. We could not access high school classes but they allowed her to create her own English classes for three semesters now. She took a college class last semester using her scores and taking a writing test. So overall we have been happy about the test. We are planning for her to take it again but I will just pay through the SAT site rather than a talent search as I have seen no benefits from the talent search.

My D took the SAT in 7th & 8th grade, and was in the "C" range both times. She was not SET (but only because she took the test 1 month after the age cutoff; we didn't even know about SET until after that... too bad). We registered her scores with CTY (in case she ever wanted to attend a camp), and they invited her to participate in an online chat forum called Cogito. That was a great benefit! As a middle schooler, she was having a hard time finding "her people" (PG kids) -- this online group was a great resource at a tough time for her.

She never did CTY, either. But she did go to Davidson THINK for two summers (age 15 & 16), and LOVED it. She used those SAT scores to qualify.

So I consider it well worthwhile.

It looks as if it is - so there doesn't seem to be much benefit to joining SET, apart perhaps from the online community (ds doesn't use it, so I don't know how active it is).

On the other hand, it's really easy to join, since all you have to do is send proof of qualifying scores.

Well, I guess I would start by asking what you're hoping to get out of the testing.

Scores you could use to advocate for her in her new school?

A baseline score you could use to measure how much she's learning in the new environment?

Admission to SET or some other program?

Taking the SAT at 10 would help with all of those, I'd think.

As for a 'cohort', I'm assuming you don't care about comparing her scores with those of other 10-year-olds -- since she sounds as if she's been working several grades above her agemates, you're probably used to comparing by grade level (correct me if I'm wrong). So you could just crunch the SAT numbers that way - use the TIP or Belin-Blank tables to see where she stands with respect to 6th or 7th graders.

To answer your other question: ds12 took the ACT at 10 (6th grade), after 3 years of EXPLORE, because its essay is optional and it's structured like the EXPLORE. Then last year he took the SAT. I'm on the fence about it this year because I no longer feel we need annual out-of-level testing to make sure he's challenged and learning, and he'll be taking the SAT II Math this fall after he finishes precalc; but on the other hand, he could probably use the practice, especially in Critical Reading.

FWIW, several families at ds's school have their kids take both the ACT and SAT through the regional talent search every year starting in 6th. It makes for a really hectic winter, in my opinion, since that's also when most of the academic competitions happen; that's one reason I went the independent route and had ds test in May. (I believe now our region's talent search offers more testing dates than they used to, though.)

Sorry for rambling there at the end! Hope this helps -

DC21 (2E) and DC17 opted not to take these when they were in middle school, so my experience with it is pretty dated. When I took it (group C, I guess), my school didn't budge on acceleration or independent study options. However, it was useful in gaining admission to early college courses and research opportunities at nearby colleges/universities. There aren't a lot of ability-based objections to a young student in community college courses with scores significantly higher than other students in the course...

DD13 took the SAT a few months ago and qualified for CTY Intensive Studies. We were interested having DD attend an on-campus summer program. However, we had planned our summer vacation well ahead of time and it overlapped both summer sessions.

We are instead going to do an online session this summer and have her attend an on-campus session next summer.

They have a pretty extensive course list, but our primary interest is in the science offerings.

Thanks, everyone, for sharing your experiences!