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Posted By: ultramarina NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 04:42 PM
I am completely and utterly gobsmacked by the writing samples in this piece:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/e...-still-lack-rigor.html?_r=2&ref=nyregion

Truly, my second grader writes better than this:

"Even though their is no physical conflict withen each other. Their are jealousy problems between each other that each one wish could have."

That sentence apparently merits a 3 (passing) on scale of 1 to 6--for a student about to graduate from high school.

Posted By: epoh Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 08:14 PM
Not surprising at all, sadly. My brother-in-law teaches a first level English college course and has had many students who were barely literate come through. And plenty who use 'txt-speech' for written essays!
Posted By: Dude Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 08:22 PM
The essay is graded on a 1-6 scale, and the unintelligible drivel quoted above merits a 3, yet this scores a 4:

Quote
In life, “no two people regard the world in exactly the same way,” as J. W. von Goethe says. Everyone sees and reacts to things in different ways. Even though they may see the world in similar ways, no two people’s views will ever be exactly the same. This statement is true since everyone sees things through different viewpoints.

Ye gods.
Originally Posted by ultramarina
I am completely and utterly gobsmacked by the writing samples in this piece:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/e...-still-lack-rigor.html?_r=2&ref=nyregion

Truly, my second grader writes better than this:

"Even though their is no physical conflict withen each other. Their are jealousy problems between each other that each one wish could have."

That sentence apparently merits a 3 (passing) on scale of 1 to 6--for a student about to graduate from high school.

I read this article and thought about posting it here. To some extent the poor writing may be the result of poor teaching in K-12, but I think the primary cause is low intelligence in many students. About 1/6 of the population has IQ <= 85, and the writing samples may illustrate the thinking and writing that the left tail of the bell curve is capable of.
Posted By: Agent99 Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 08:41 PM
These are worse than terrible. I could forgive atrocious spelling if the writer was trying to convey something germane and interesting. But there appears to be a serious lack of understanding.

Sad.
Posted By: Val Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
To some extent the poor writing may be the result of poor teaching in K-12, but I think the primary cause is low intelligence in many students. About 1/6 of the population has IQ <= 85, and the writing samples may illustrate the thinking and writing that the left tail of the bell curve is capable of.

Low IQ would explain some of the poor writing, but it wouldn't explain the grading.

Originally Posted by Val
Originally Posted by Bostonian
To some extent the poor writing may be the result of poor teaching in K-12, but I think the primary cause is low intelligence in many students. About 1/6 of the population has IQ <= 85, and the writing samples may illustrate the thinking and writing that the left tail of the bell curve is capable of.

Low IQ would explain some of the poor writing, but it wouldn't explain the grading.

It does if it is politically unacceptable to flunk too many people out of high school. The political pressure to graduate everyone is increasing. In his latest State of the Union Address, the president told states they should require everyone to stay in high school until they graduate or turn 18.
Posted By: Agent99 Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 09:57 PM
We have the same situation out here, Master of None. Last year in 5th grade, ds wrote more than 35 reports and essays, in additions to 5 speeches and 5 power point presentations. He had an amazing teacher.

This year in 7th grade he has written two reports.

Two years ago when dd was in this middle school, the students were writing in every class including P.E. Why? Because the state mandated writing tests and our district's scores are shameful. Most of these so-called writing samples were peer reviewed. The others were never returned and dd received zero feedback.

The writing frenzy stopped this year because the state cut the tests due to budget restraints.
Posted By: Val Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 10:29 PM
So, let me see if I understand correctly.

Children spend hours and hours doing all this writing and teacher doesn't check it?

And they wonder why the kids don't learn how to write?

And what does this say about the value of homework? How much other homework never gets checked?

frown
Posted By: Dude Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 10:43 PM
My senior AP English class couldn't correctly grade an essay in peer review (thankfully, the teacher gave his own grades). I shudder to think what elementary kids are doing to each other.
Posted By: jesse Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by master of none
Our teacher's union says that teachers assign no more than three writing assignments per semester so they won't have to read all the student's written work. That's in middle and high school. In elem, the teacher never reads the work. They just do "peer editing" and the peer assigns a grade according to the rubric the teacher teaches to the kids.

This is a major difference between public and private school.


wow!
You all are scaring me and/or making me feel lucky. DD, in second, writes an approximately 300-word assignment weekly and receives detailed feedback on it. She also writes a paragraph or two for spelling. This is just homework--I know she does more in class. I do think the writing homework is unusually intense, though.
Posted By: Wren Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/07/12 11:57 PM
dd, in second also, writes a weekly short story, using her spelling words. That is the Wed. assignment. But no 300 word weekly essays. Her teachers review all her homework.
Posted By: Agent99 Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/08/12 12:36 AM
Middle school was the deciding factor that both kids would attend a private high school. Imagine our thrill when our wonderfully gifted daughter scored at the 37th percentile on her writing section of her entrance exam.

We soon discovered that dd had never been taught parts of speech, grammar or minimal vocabulary. To frighten you further, my dd was considered one of the better writers at her middle school.

Her freshman english teacher was a hard ass nun who worked her as she'd never been worked. Dd detested this woman with every fiber of her being, especially as she rarely gave out As. She started everyone with a C and it's up to the student to earn the A.

They wrote and got feedback and rewrote. Sister took DD through the necessary steps it takes to become a fluent writer. I loved this nun the minute she told the parents not to edit or help their kids with their assignments. She became DD's favorite teacher.

Dd's vocabulary and writing are now at a level fitting someone who is gifted. And that school is worth every penny.

Posted By: Ellipses Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/08/12 02:35 PM
At the community college where I work, I am realizing that most of the developmental instructors don't grade. I am appalled by the lack of feedback. Meanwhile, we hold meetings trying to discover why the students aren't learning. Duh!

In defense of peer editing, there is a place for it. Students learn to edit by using this system. However, they need both peer editing and a teacher's response.
Posted By: Val Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/08/12 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
It does if it is politically unacceptable to flunk too many people out of high school. The political pressure to graduate everyone is increasing. In his latest State of the Union Address, the president told states they should require everyone to stay in high school until they graduate or turn 18.

I agree that current ideology and romanticism is getting in the way of helping students find what they're good at (rather than what adults think they should be good at). And pushing everyone to pass the Regents exam is crazy, and lowering standards to do it isn't going to fool anyone except the edumacators.

Encouraging students to stay in school would be a good thing IF the schools were presenting a range of options to them, such as vocational education programs. These programs are free and students graduate from high school with skills that qualify them for good jobs. But they're getting less and less attention as schools push students to go to college.
Another article on poor writing skills:

http://www.popecenter.org/commentaries/article.html?id=2651
No Wonder Johnny (Still) Can’t Write
Students don’t write well and professors don’t want to help them.
By J.M. Anderson
February 10, 2012

Ask college professors what their biggest gripe is with undergraduates today, and most will tell you that they don’t read and they can’t write. Ask college students if their professors are taking the time to teach them, and most will tell you that they aren’t.

Let’s focus on writing. Good writing is largely a matter of taste and judgment that is cultivated through practice, experience, and extensive reading. Teaching it requires dexterity and finesse. Students can improve as writers when their teachers give them the attention they both need and deserve.

Here’s a typical introductory paragraph from a paper in Western Civ II discussing how humanism and the Protestant reformation represent a radical break with the Middle Ages:

"During the fourteenth through the sixteenth century the motivation was religion. During this time Christian meant Catholic as in Roman Catholic. As they believed in the Pope as the one who would save them to go to heaven. Just as the people who believed in the Prince, as the ruler for all to look up to as an example."

Students who write like this need more than a few marginal comments on their papers; they need rigorous criticism of their writing and guidance in making substantive revisions.

Oh, for goodness' sake. What the author of that article doesn't seem to realise is that the time a professor has available to spend on teaching or marking is limited. If I spend more of my limited time on teaching or criticising my students' writing, I will have to spend less of it on teaching and criticising other things, like, you know, the stuff the students have enrolled on my course to learn... Even if I had more time per student to spend, writing wouldn't be in the top three most valuable things I could spend it on. Perhaps the situation would be different if I taught in the humanities, but I doubt it.
Posted By: Val Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/13/12 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by ColinsMum
Oh, for goodness' sake. What the author of that article doesn't seem to realise is that the time a professor has available to spend on teaching or marking is limited. If I spend more of my limited time on teaching or criticising my students' writing, I will have to spend less of it on teaching and criticising other things, like, you know, the stuff the students have enrolled on my course to learn... Even if I had more time per student to spend, writing wouldn't be in the top three most valuable things I could spend it on. Perhaps the situation would be different if I taught in the humanities, but I doubt it.

Writing is one of the two most important skills a student can learn. The other one is reading. Once someone gets both of these skills down, he can go a long way. Good writing is a sign of an organized mind. Bad writing is a sign of a disorganized mind. If students can't write, they can't make their points known, can't convince anyone of an idea they have, and generally will have trouble advancing in a job that requires anything beyond rudimentary communication skills.

Teaching students how to write is the primary purview of English teachers and professors, but that doesn't mean that everyone else gets a pass (and you seem to have written that even the English profs don't need to teach writing because it's not important).

If someone has to write prose for your class, you have a duty to make meaningful corrections. Otherwise, you're just assigning busy work. From what you've written here and what I've seen/read, no one wants to seem to teach anyone how to write because they're too busy teaching other "important" things. Seriously? Are the students just supposed to figure it out? And teachers wonder why they get criticized?

Respectfully, your answer came across as a bit petulant and as excusing all teachers and professors who don't want to teach students how to write.

Originally Posted by Val
Writing is one of the two most important skills a student can learn. The other one is reading.
This in no way implies that everyone who teaches a student should be teaching those things.

ETclarify:
At university level (and at least in my country: yours is, as I understand it, a little more prescriptive, but not much) students, not professors, are responsible for the overall balance of what they learn. Universities, and professors in universities, are best regarded as resources that students can use to help them learn the things they've decided to learn. (Eventually, a student who has learned a given set of things to a reasonable standard will be awarded a degree certificate that summarises this and a transcript that gives more detail.) During their studies, students choose courses based partly on the published learning objectives of each course. The job of the person teaching a given course is to help students to achieve the learning objectives of that course - not to prioritise something else, however important, over those objectives that the student has chosen.

As far as writing is concerned, students at my university are required to come in with writing skills good enough to make themselves understood. Some students may wish to improve their writing skills; they can choose courses that will help them do that. The majority of the students I meet already have, when they enter university, writing skills which are more than good enough to equip them for the careers that they wish to follow. For that reason, I would not myself be in favour of changing the regulations to force all our students to take writing courses, let alone changing the way we teach courses so that more effort is spent on writing at the expense of subject content. That's not to devalue the teaching of writing.

Originally Posted by Val
If someone has to write prose for your class, you have a duty to make meaningful corrections. Otherwise, you're just assigning busy work.
(a) That's simply not true: students can learn a huge amount - both about how to wrote prose, and, often, about the subject they're writing about - from writing prose that isn't corrected by someone else. (b) One can make meaningful corrections to a student's work without correcting their writing, per se. One can correct the content, even!

Originally Posted by Val
From what you've written here and what I've seen/read, no one wants to seem to teach anyone how to write because they're too busy teaching other "important" things. Seriously? Are the students just supposed to figure it out? And teachers wonder why they get criticized?
Do you criticise the English professor for not teaching arithmetic, too? Are that professor's students just supposed to figure it out?

Originally Posted by Val
Respectfully, your answer came across as a bit petulant and as excusing all teachers and professors who don't want to teach students how to write.
Respectfully, your answer suggests a lack of understanding of the range of learning objectives of university courses.
Posted By: Val Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/13/12 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by ColinsMum
This in no way implies that everyone who teaches a student should be teaching those things.

Of course it doesn't. But if you make an assignment, you have a duty to grade it in a meaningful way.

Originally Posted by ColinsMum
(a) That's simply not true: students can learn a huge amount - both about how to wrote prose, and, often, about the subject they're writing about - from writing prose that isn't corrected by someone else. (b) One can make meaningful corrections to a student's work without correcting their writing, per se. One can correct the content, even!

I disagree with (a). Students can only learn so much about anything without having guidance from someone whose job is to teach them (this is the whole point of having teachers). Most people need help with writing; beginners, including most university students, need a lot of help. Even professional writers use writing groups to get advice and help from others.

(b) Just because it's important to correct content doesn't mean you can skip over significant problems related to structuring a paragraph or grammar. Outside of English class, suggestions don't have to be extensive, but they should be there. English teachers and professors should tear papers apart.

Originally Posted by ColinsMum
Do you criticise the English professor for not teaching arithmetic, too? Are that professor's students just supposed to figure it out?

No, I criticize a professor who makes an assignment and then doesn't correct it.
What you're saying now is so far from what the article was saying and what you were saying before that I'm not going to spend any more time answering you. It's totally off-topic anyway.
Posted By: Val Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/13/12 09:31 PM
Sent you a PM.
[deleted: was reply to deleted post]
Posted By: Val Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/13/12 09:41 PM
Then I'll just write it here. It's not a big deal.

ColinsMum,

Are you having a rough day? If so, and if I made it rougher, I apologize. You usually write thoughtful messages and that one I responded to seemed very different from your typical ones. I was surprised.

In any event, people may indeed write better in the UK than they do in the US, but that quote Bostonian posted was typical (or maybe even actually a bit better) than a lot of the stuff I've read over here in the US. Teaching writing really seems to have gone out of style in this country, and I'm very concerned about what the consequences will be. Even gifted kids need a lot of help with writing, but our schools and colleges seem increasingly reticent to offer it. frown

Val
Posted By: aculady Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/13/12 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
Students who write like this need more than a few marginal comments on their papers; they need rigorous criticism of their writing and guidance in making substantive revisions.

...and they need it well before they get to college, IMO.
Posted By: AlexsMom Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/14/12 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by aculady
...and they need it well before they get to college, IMO.

Agreed. If your writing skills aren't strong enough by that point, the place to hone them is a remedial / developmental writing course. Most college programs have writing tutors who can work with students one-on-one (for free!), too.

Likewise for students who get to college without sufficient math background.
Posted By: aculady Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/14/12 02:27 AM
Even if your college doesn't have a program, assuming you have internet access, and can read or have access to screen reading software, the Purdue Online Writing Lab (OWL), which has great writing instruction, is free for all.
Posted By: MonetFan Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/14/12 04:46 PM
The problem is, though, that students are being graduated and then admitted into colleges without being able to write. Unless the student is enrolled in a remedial program of some sort, it should not be the responsibility of the COLLEGE professor to teach basic writing skills. I agree that college English/creative writing professors should help hone and enhance those skills of their students, but they shouldn't have to teach them how to write an introductory sentence for a paragraph or even what a paragraph is (something a professor I know recently related).
Posted By: JonLaw Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/14/12 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by MonetFan
The problem is, though, that students are being graduated and then admitted into colleges without being able to write. Unless the student is enrolled in a remedial program of some sort, it should not be the responsibility of the COLLEGE professor to teach basic writing skills.

The college is admitting them without them being able to write. They know this is a problem. So, they either need to accept that the college professors are now de facto high school teachers or they need to not accept the students in the first place.

Posted By: MonetFan Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/14/12 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
Originally Posted by MonetFan
The problem is, though, that students are being graduated and then admitted into colleges without being able to write. Unless the student is enrolled in a remedial program of some sort, it should not be the responsibility of the COLLEGE professor to teach basic writing skills.

The college is admitting them without them being able to write. They know this is a problem. So, they either need to accept that the college professors are now de facto high school teachers or they need to not accept the students in the first place.


I agree that is a big part of the problem. Too many (non-elite?) colleges are run more like businesses these days and seem to only care about getting the admission monies, whether the student is prepared or not.

I think part of the problem is also the incessant calls for everyone to go to college, when it is quite clear that some people should not- even some very bright people are not meant for college. The US could really use a good technical and vocational model for those kids.
Posted By: Val Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/14/12 05:35 PM
We started doing serious work on parts of speech and other aspects of grammar when I was in fifth grade. We also learned how to write topic sentences, etc. This work continued all the way through high school, and we had to start writing short papers in junior high. My Honors English class had to write a serious term paper (20 page minimum) in 10th grade. My high school offered an advanced composition course for 12th graders.

My college required that every student take a semester-long Freshman writing seminar class. If you didn't take one, you didn't graduate, and taking the class after your freshman year was, shall we say, not recommended.

We had to write a short paper every week. The professor shredded our papers, and then we had to rewrite them and hand them back in by the end of the week. That class was very demanding. I just looked online; they still offer 13 sections of that course at my small alma mater.

I took two more English classes after that, and my first year of classes prepared me to write over 100 pages in my sophomore year (not counting lab reports). I got all As that year. If my freshmen professors hadn't been so tough, I wouldn't have done so well.

I looked at course catalogs for a couple of local colleges, and their catalogs list courses in expository writing, and the California universities seem to require a course in composition to graduate. So if all these places are requiring these courses, why aren't students learning how to write? Are the courses less demanding? Do the profs not tear the papers apart? Does anyone know?
Posted By: JonLaw Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/14/12 05:52 PM
Part of it depends on how much you enjoy writing. I personally don't like it at all, so I avoid it whenever possible.

My writing probably peaked in late high school/early college when I had to do a lot of writing. I did well in freshman English and then proceeded to avoid anything to do with writing. By the time I was done with college, it was pretty poor. I nearly failed legal writing in law school, partially because I was so rusty and partially because I really dislike writing.

I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting the rules of grammar over time, being that I have no real interest in retaining that knowledge. It's just one of those areas of life I find incredibly boring.
Posted By: SiaSL Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/14/12 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Val
[...] the California universities seem to require a course in composition to graduate. So if all these places are requiring these courses, why aren't students learning how to write? Are the courses less demanding? Do the profs not tear the papers apart? Does anyone know?

From my experience as a returning student (I have taken art/English classes at a CA community college years after getting my "real" engineering degree a long time ago in a country far, far away) and seen other students who couldn't string a coherent, properly spelled sentence together, there are three things at play:

1) community colleges have to take anybody who graduates from high school. Not just people who graduate from high school after taking all honor/AP classes. Clearly it is possible to graduate without having mastered the basics (which what you got in honors classes... probably weren't). Also lots of returning students who might have forgotten a lot.

2) lots of foreign students struggling with the language and the conventions of US essay writing. In most community colleges their full tuition keeps the boat afloat, so... (there was an article recently in IIRC the NYT about a cottage industry of faked admission files for Chinese students, which probably doesn't help).

3) And while intro to English composition is indeed required for graduation, it teaches the basics and no, shredding is frowned upon. The buzz word is constructive criticism wink. There are remedial classes you have to take before taking English composition (or the ESL equivalent) and up front testing, but while most writing heavy classes (say, history vs. color theory) recommend waiting until you have passed English composition a lot of students ignore the warnings.
Posted By: Agent99 Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/14/12 10:56 PM
It's been our experience that grammar, parts of speech, sentence construction and the like are simply skimmed over, if taught at all. DD16 had serious gaps in this area because she had not been taught.

Benchmarks begin in 4th grade, are (allegedly) reexamined again in 7th, and by 8th one is supposed to have a handle on this material. But it's not happening. You cannot believe the level of some of the senior essays I have read, from A students. It's frightening.
Posted By: AlexsMom Re: NYT piece on test standards for writing - 02/15/12 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by Agent99
It's been our experience that grammar, parts of speech, sentence construction and the like are simply skimmed over, if taught at all.

Totally agree. DD8 sometimes gets spelling errors corrected on her writing assignments, but rarely anything beyond that. She's a generally good writer (because she reads voraciously), but would benefit more from detailed feedback than from being passed on through with errors intact.

She did a Michael Clay Thompson grammar class through GLL last summer, and learned more grammar from that than from an entire year of school.
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