Butter (DD8) is STILL not listening! Or, let me be more specific...that she seems to ONLY listen to me...and I'm not sure if it's asynchrony, being 8 or what. We do not have any additional diagnoses and her ears work just fine.

Two times in 2 weeks, I have sent Butter off to a Girl Scout outing without me and BOTH times, I hear back that she is not listening...now, she doesn't do crazy dangerous things, but it's scouts and it's kind of the point that we are a group, doing things together. Today, for example, the other leader took 4 girls over to the bathroom and when she got over there, Butter wasn't with her, but back where they started. And when she is reprimanded, or even just reminded to do the same as everyone else, the comment I hear is that "she has attitude" (I'm sure almost everyone on THIS board has heard that ;))

I don't think she thinks she's better than anyone else, but seperate, and it comes off like that to the other adults. Besides of which, she DOES need to listen to other people than me at times. I don't think the other adults should bear all the responsibility of learning how to get HER to cooperate, she has to do part of the work if she wants to participate in scouts...

Additionally, today, the leader she was with is also a giftee parent, so she KNOWS how this goes and she is the one saying maybe Butter can't come to events unless I am there to keep her on task.

This is super frustrating. We had enough of this kind of stuff at the old school where they just didn't understand her, I don't need it spilling over into her fun time...right now she is writing a paper on how listening and respect are related, why she needs to listen and what the consequences of not listening can and will be, but I just don't know what to do to really drive this point home to her.

Feedback, suggestions, your 2 cents greatly appreciated here

So, is this "I was told to do something, it was obvious I heard and acknowledged the adult, and then I deliberately disobeyed anyway." or "I was involved in my own thoughts and didn't hear what was going on or realize everyone else was doing something different or that I was supposed to go, too, and then was defensive when I was chewed out for not doing something I didn't even realize I was supposed to do at the time."?

I know that when I am concentrating on my thoughts, or on something that requires auditory processing (reading, composing music or poetry in my head or on paper, etc.), I literally don't hear what is going on around me. I am not "ignoring" it, it just doesn't ever make it to consciousness. My brother and my cousins once built a prison for me by piling the furniture in our family room around and over my favorite reading chair while I was in it reading a book when I was about Butter's age, and I completely failed to notice the construction process in any way until they flipped a large table upside down on top of the pile, shutting out the light, so I could no longer read. (My mother was not amused.) Apparently, they were discussing the process the whole time, and I never heard a word...but my hearing is fine. If this is the sort of thing that happened, it might be worth talking to the leader to be sure that she checks to be sure Butter is aware that she is being spoken to and understands the instructions before the leader walks away expecting her to follow.

Sometime adults think they are being clear, but they aren't. For example, if the leader said something like "Butter, we are all going down to the bathroom.", she might have believed that that was an instruction for Butter to accompany them, which it was not, strictly speaking. Butter might have heard something like this, thought "So what?" and gone back to whatever she was doing before. If this kind of misunderstanding is what occurred, it might be worth talking to Butter about asking for clarification (Do you want me to go with you?) if adults say similar things that might make her wonder what relevance the information the adult is trying to communicate has to her.

I think that is part of the problem aculady. Other adults THINK they are being clear, but it's apparent to me that to just SAY something to her is not enough. She might even LOOK like she is listening, but I often have to clap my hands or position myself directly in front of her or even touch her. I did explain that part to the leader in charge today (not the mom of the giftee).

The comment I'm getting is that she seems to "have an attitude" though and that bothers me greatly. She certainly does not and I know this is often a problem for our kind of kids, especially if they are confident...

Also, how much should I expect other adults to have to handle her that way, kwim? I don't think all these other adults should have to bear the brunt of her giftedness or inattentiveness or wahtever it is, especially when they don't understand her.

But I do totally appreciate your perspective and it helps.

I did have her write up a paper on why it was important to listen, what the consequences of not listening might be and what she should do in the future to avoid this. She nailed it by writing that she would do what she was told WHEN she was told to in the future, so I'm satisfied for the moment...

And we have also had the direct "We are all doing this NOW and you are expected to do it too" situation where she will just stand there, say, watching others pick up trash...and it's frustrating the other adults, which in turn makes me sad.

It's getting in the way of other people seeing her awesomeness, you know? It's like she saves all her awesome for me alone

oh and her testing showed some working memory and processing speed issues. She is sensitive to loud noises and they were in a crowd, at the parade staging area...you know what, honestly? I bet that was IT!!! Like when she complained that she was having a hard time paying attention in class because it was so noisy all the time!

Ugh, maybe I DO have to go to things with herr all the time then...oh wel;...

I was reading your Oct 15th post about your dd only having Adhd symptomes in one setting...school.
I think this is your second setting.
I love that you are grappling with the question of how much you can ask other adults to alter their habits to accomidate your child.

The not being able to intuit the other adults intention is common to both NVLD and ADHDI. It takes a lot of presence of mind for an 8 year old to ask herself 'what else might this adult want from me?'

Girls in particular are held to a higher standard of intuition than boys so it doesn't suprise me that other adults think she just isn't trying.

Love and more love
Grinity

Out of curiousity, have you asked her why she will stand and watch others do something and refuse to participate? Once you know the why from her perspective - whether it's as simple as that she didn't want to or something more complicated - you can begin a dialogue that logically walks her from her own driving motivation to not participate to the logical consequence to that choice. I know for my kids that when empathy, desire to fit in, etc. were overridden by another stronger motive, once they understood the consequence, such as not getting to be independent and go with other kids to group events, they were more willing to do what was expected.

Wow! This sounds a lot like my DD8, but with a different twist. My daughter is also very sensitive to noises (especially flushing toilets). She will go to great lengths to avoid public toilets.

This year, in particular, she has developed more "selective hearing", in that she does not hear her teacher. As a result, I had her hearing tested, and she failed a hearing test in one ear at the lowest sound level. This occurred when she has a cold, and she did pass a hearing test several months later. Anyhow, I am still trying to work with teacher on this issue. This is the e-mail that I sent (with the teacher's response).

I just spoke with Nurse B and she will be pulling DD out of class for another hearing screen. DD says that she still just doesn�t hear some of the things you say, even being at the front of the class. For example, yesterday, she said that she was called out for a missing paper (by her class number) for being asked the third time to turn it in. She said she didn�t hear the request the first two times.

I�m trying to be proactive, and need additional information from you to determine if I need to send DD to a hearing specialist over the Christmas break. I am trying to figure out:

1. If she really can�t hear. (She still says you speak softly in class unless you are upset. When you get louder, she hears you then.)
Teacher response: I must assume that DD does have a hearing problem based on the statement that I speak softly. I have never been told this and in fact, I think my voice is louder than most.
2. If she can�t hear because she is focusing really hard on an assignment she is working on (in other words in a �zone� and blocking everything else out). She has mentioned that she has trouble concentrating on her work because of some of the kids she sits next to, so she may be going into her own world to hit the concentration level she needs. (From the careless mistakes she is making on her school work, it looks like she is distracted, some days more than others.)
Teacher response:I am planning to move all scholars today or the first of next week. DD will be with a different group of scholars. I can�t guarantee she will sit by all new scholars.
3. If she can�t hear because there are other noises interrupting her hearing. She has mentioned kids at her table making clicking and tapping noises, so that may be possible too.
Teacher response: The classroom is never totally quiet, but the noises you refer to are not loud enough for me to notice. I am pretty strict about humming, clicking, etc. Those get on my nerves as well. The only solution for total silence would be for me to move DD by herself. I don�t think you want that, and I don�t like to isolate a scholar. As I notice scholars working now, each group has some sort of noise. (papers rustling, pencils tapping as they write, chairs moving, etc. These noises are expected as scholars work�nothing out of the ordinary.) The fact that she has trouble hearing me, but these small noises bother her seems inconsistent to me. Maybe she has a hearing issue due to proximity or focusing when there is more than one sound. I�m sorry I�m not more help.
4. If she can�t hear because she is busy talking to other kids. (If that is the case, she�s in big trouble!)
Teacher response: DD is not talking with other scholars. We did have that at the beginning of the year, but not now.

Will you please let me know which of these are applicable or provide any other suggestions or observations you may have? Thank you.
Teacher response: Please keep me updated about DD�s hearing issues. Thank you for this update.

Note: DD recently had IQ and achievement tests, and when I asked the tester about the hearing issues, she said she did not notice anything. However, she said there may be some auditory processing issues, especially if there were times when DD did not hear well. That will be our next item to check.

2giftgirls, is it possible that your DD is going through something similar?

I'm still trying to sort out the difference for Butter between not listening and not hearing. We have had some similar frustrations in other settings where it was apparent to me, after the fact, that it WAS indeed a matter of perception or communication...ie a difference between "Are you coming to guitar class" and "Are you going to PLAY guitar with us today?" To the adult in charge, these statements were the same, to Butter, they are vastly different.

As far as not doing what others are...if I am present, this does not seem to be a problem, but I know she feels "seperate" or different than others most of the time and I wonder if it's that or maybe executive function. Like if you ask her to change tasks, she sometimes seems confused as to how to stop one thing and move to the other. Again, at home, not a problem, but like, if her hands are already full and you say "Now we are picking up trash," she doesn't always get the implication that she needs to put down the stuff in her hands first. Then she gets frustrated and I think it comes off as "attitude". She does seem to have this working memory deficit so that could complicate the issue, in that you can only tell her one or two things at a time. Executive function issues would point us toward the ADHD as well...

TX G Mom-we had issues like you are describing when Butter was in a regular classroom. In their school, they were grouped together, often facing each other, not the front of the classroom, starting in first grade. It was a nightmare and a disaster. I BEGGED for 2+ years for Butter to get her own seperate desk that always face the front. We finally got it in 3rd (earlier this year) but it was too little, too late.

When the school psych pulled Butter out to discuss class with her, Butter asked for headphones, ear plugs, a seperate desk, but she would refuse the "privacy board" because that didn't really block out the noise for her and stigmatized her. Of course, the teacher would not capitulate with earplugs, etc. Butter often complained of the same issues, that it was always "loud" or noisy, she couldn't hear the teacher, etc...and I know she has the same hyperfocus issues, so if she is into the work, looking down at the paper, forget it, doesn't hear A THING! lol!

I know her hearing is just fine, according to the tests, but this is also why I'm suspecting NVLD or the ADHD inattentive type. We have changed schools to a homestudy program, so she only goes into a classroom once a week for three hours. The other "class" settings like strings, guitar, multimedia, art, are all of her choosing so she is better able to focus and, except for art, those are only 1 hour blocks of time...this is better, but not a total answer and I can't control the environment for her all the time of course...you are lucky the teacher is listening to you...ours just kept saying Butter was all to blame, that she chose to not listen and was a behavior problem

The fact that she seems to hear me just fine most of the time doesn't surprise me either...she's been hearing MY voice since the womb. I also have a rather deep and loud voice that carries and cuts through background noise in a way that most women do not. Like when I speak sharply, kids who aren't mine listen, lol!

I'm just a point where I'm not sure what I should do next as far as Girl Scouts and when I'm not there...she doesn't seem to have a problem at camps, at least not to the point where they call me to complain or say she can't come back. *sigh* that's all I've got left this morning, lol!

oh, also, if you give her written instructions, she seems to be fine. even last night, when I had herr write this paper, I had to write down the things I wanted her to address...

now, for myself, I am amazing at taking in auditory info. I can follow several conversations at the same time (like at a party), I like to have the TV on all the time and people often let things slip out because they think I'm not listening, but I could repeat, almost word for word what they said.

Butter is NOT like this and I think it's not just because she is 8. At home, when we are doing schoolwork, she can't even have music in the background. She likes absolute quiet. And you can't leave the TV on if you want her to pick up the room or something...

There are other options besides these.

Our DS9 had trouble learning that an instruction made to a group applied to him. This was fundamentally a social skills deficit; he just didn't see himself as part of the group. We have had to work hard on "checking in" and staying checked in.

In addition, as Aculady said, an instruction given indirectly ("class, we're on page 46"-- with no explicit direction about what to do about that) was completely incomprehensible to him. (You can imagine him thinking "so? you're on page 46, what does that have to do with me?")


Yes, that's the sort of thing I'm getting at. Implicit language was lost on my DS for quite a long time.


FWIW, difficulty with this kind of transition, and the issues you and I outlined above, go together as part of Asperger's in my DS. And yes, people often mistake them for attitude when they're a genuine processing problem.

I know you had an eval recently-- did you discuss any of this with the tester?

Agreeing with Grinity-- you're seeing something that's not just a school problem here, and IMO these issues are worth working on.

DeeDee

listening and paying attention are skills that can be improved. Have you tried music lessons? We got my third grader into that a year ago (piano); he is hearing impaired and obviously could use some listening improvement. It has helped alot and has spilled over into other areas of his life and school.
Or sports or dance- we also had him do these little musicals/dance programs at our local art center.

Yes, she recently started violin as well as guitar. I am of the same mind, that these things will help her learn to listen better...

DeeDee-our evaluator said she did not see glaringly obvious signs of AS, autism, even the ADHD, she's not completely convinced it's ADHD, but possibly learned dysfunctional coping skills, so we will revist the ADHD issue soon...we are being called for a consult with developmental behavior, so, maybe...

I did ask her about some of these issues today. She said specifically that she does feel confused sometimes when she is told to finish one project, then it seems that suddenly they are told to pick up, etc. I know part of this is her own perrfectionism...say we are making cards, the other kids her age draw a simple flower or heart and take 10 minutes. She would spend an hour, if allowed, with fancy embellishments, etc. I am pretty good about giving the kids plenty of transisiton time, but not everyone is me, right? lol!

She also does some other "odd" stuff...like lately she plucks a hair from her hair and tries to floss her teeth with it (ick) or tap dances around (she doesn't take tap lessons). She fidgets less than before, but she's also not confined to a seat in a classroom like before...

*sigh* again, lol!

woohooo!!! appt set with developmental behavior clinic for the end of the month. They told me that this is the Dr who will be able to say, with at least some real authority, whether or not it actually is AS, NVLD, ADHD, etc...or none of the above? lol!

I don't agree with the teacher's comment that it's inconsistent to say that her voice is soft and yet be bothered by clicking noises. To my way of thinking, the clicking noises could be so overwhelmingly distracting that she can't hear anything else! I have moments on occasion (thank goodness not all the time) when there is a "minor" noise that is so irritating to me that I can't escape from it. Also, once in a while there is something odd with my eardrums or something where paper rustling noises get all blown out of proportion in my hearing and it feels like they are banging inside my ears. I don't know if it's just an acoustic thing with a piece of earwax or what -- this happened for an extended time many years ago when I was considering applying for a job with the post office, and I never went because I couldn't stand the idea of all that mail rustling around in my head.

And there is also the fact that, despite having no hearing problems, I frequently have to watch people's lips moving in order to actually think about what they are saying; somehow the words just don't register unless I see them. DS9 has some of that as well. It may be an AS thing, I'm not sure. It's not that I can't hear the words, just that sometimes they don't get into my consciousness.

CAPD? NVLD? and apparently CAPD and ADHD can look a lot alike, at least in some kids...

anyone have one like this with CAPD or NVLD? I'm honestly still suspecting even high fx AS, but all those ideas are more like differential DX or looking at lists and thinking, yes, that sounds like her...

master-are you SERIOUS with the hair thing??? lol!!! my brother had tricotillomania (sp) when he was a kid and he is way up there IQ wise. She goes through phases of these "tics" and someone also suggested it might be sensory, but, I would think the evaluator would have picked up on anything big like SPD...

Nautigal-I have sensitivity to certain kinds of noises as well...I think that's why I like to leave my tv on all the time, to drown out other sounds. For me, I can't abide most video game noises, the sound of my own breathing in the dead of night and the way my youngest whispers under her breath (UGH UGH UGH!!) lol!

My 8 yo dd has a similar issue with noise. She can't stand the noise in a regular classroom and comes home with headaches after school. She also struggles with the slightest background noises in the classroom and when the teacher lectures to the class as a whole my dd has a hard time understanding so the teacher will explain it one on one with her and then she comprehends. I think when the teacher is speaking to the whole class it's harder for my dd to focus on what the teacher is saying. She also will take a lot of things I say literally but I can't tell if she's doing it to be a smart aleck or if she really means it.

sometimes, when I am reading comments and posts here, I think...

I HAVE FOUND MY PEOPLE! lol!

Me too. Happy new to all who celebrate it.

Well, that's one technique if you want to be really, really nature-friendly, I guess.

she is a real nature lover JonLaw...lol! she was deciphering the recycle symbols and numbers around 4 and she will lay into you if put something in the wrong place, lol!