I've noticed many of you have graduate degrees. Would you recommend pursuing one to someone else?

Are graduate programs really more rigorous than the 4 year programs?

For those of you who went to really good colleges,
Do you think lower ranking colleges provide programs that are as challenging as the ones provided at the best schools?
(I will never get into a selective college at this point and there are none nearby.)

My college transcript makes me look bi-polar. I've got straight As, then Cs, Ds, and Fs. Then straight As again and so on. I changed my major at least 7 times. I still only have 80 credits. My GPA isn't great, and even if I pulled it up and thought about going to grad school, there are no good schools anywhere near our house. I'd end up looking at online programs.

Last question,
What was your undergrad experience like?


Many of you graduated and are doing well, so obviously my lack of educational attainment must be due to me making too many excuses. I only attended a "real" college, on campus, for one semester. I took Biology, Chemistry and Accelerated Pre-Calc (this was during my "Doctor" phase because all my doctors kept saying I ought to become one.) Everything else I took was through a military campus extension program, online classes, and community college. (The best professor I had was at a community college. She made me love learning again!)

Most kids didn't pass the Biology class, but I ended up skipping all my classes and reading all the chapters the night before the test. I remember on the second test only 2 of us got an A. I tried to talk to my teachers after class, but they didn't seem to have time for my questions or care at all. It was disheartening. I stopped showing up for the last 2 tests and they gave me a C, even though I only took two tests and got As.

The chemistry teacher made his own binder of notes and taught the kids the bare minimum they needed to know to get the material. I couldn't get it without seeing the whole picture. I bought a Chemistry book and spent all night at home reading it and teaching myself. I fell behind and felt really dumb.

Pre-Calc... I needed to work, but didn't. I got some Bs and didn't want to go anymore.

Anyway, I am much better now about not feeling stupid if I have to work at something. I've seen that research posted around here, about how kids that believe intelligence is fixed will feel stupid and quit or freak out when they have to actually put some effort in. It was like that with me, I guess. I was totally unprepared for college.

Ok,

/long rambling thread

I'd like to hear about how college was for you and your thoughts on the value of an advanced degree (a degree I have no plans to use for a job at this moment.)

Do you have a B.A. or B.S., and if so, in what subject? What are you interested in doing graduate work in? If you provide these details people can give more focused advice.

I think you should give it a rest, just work or whatever for a while, then find something you feel strongly about. My first degree, and the first part of my unfinished one were like yours, just a mess. But, I took a couple of years off, found a job I loved and started working towards the degree with actual application. I did it distance so I could do the whole book in the first two days of the semester, then again two days before the exam with all the lecture notes and I had great marks the whole way through.

It's not that I feel stupid if I have to work at something, it's just that I never had worked at anything and I didn't know how to. I never did homework at school, only read through stuff the night before, that sort of thing.

Grad school is not the sort of debt you should take on without a plan to use it and get worth from it.

I agree that one should be cautious about debt, but when I went to grad school about 20 years ago in one of the natural sciences, teaching and research assistantships were enough to support a single person.

IOA
A graduate degree is normally a means to something else. My PhD enables me to be a professor at a university. Adjuncts teach in my field with only an MA but you cannot be fulltime. Outside of academia, professional degrees are signal of specialization and expertise. Some argue it's the new BA, but if you put that aside, it's really about expertise. So it's all about what you want to do. I would not pursue a degree in an area you don't like because you think it's what you should do or because you'll make a lot of money. I went to a wedding once where the bride and her friends all went to the same top ten law school and 7 years out only 2 were still actively working as lawyers.

In terms of universities, it's what the student makes out of it. In my experience, with prestigious and lesser ranked schools, the higher the incoming SATs the faster the students can work, the more they can read in a week and the more you can expect from their incoming preparation as a group. But it does not speak to dedication, willingess to learn interest or anything that is individually driven. Prestigious universities offer more extras, speakers and the like. But remember at all levels, professors vary, at all levels, you should be able to find full time faculty with phds doing research, they are experts in their fields and can share with any interested student more than they might with the group. Plus at some large research insittuions, access to the star profs can be limited.

In terms of admissions, it's been awhile, but if your program requires a test, that can often compensate for erratic undergrad. Alternatively, a good personal statement can work wonders at explaining as can good recommendations.

The most important thing I can say, particularly about a PhD, academic work is self driven, once you are doing your own research, you are the motivating daily factor. Not everyone has that skill some in my program did great until the time came to design their dissertation, and ultimately dropped out. Some work best with a boss to answer to or deadlines. I tend to create artificial deadlines for myself but not everyone can do this.

So the key question is what do you want the degree for, then where do you want to go get it, and if that program can't help you to your goal then achieving that degree isn't worth it.

HTH,
DeHe

No, I don't even have that yet. I still can't decide what to do. I am closest to a History degree at this point. I am still enrolled in a school in Hawaii that has online programs. I can finish all my classes online. I love it because they are 10 week classes and I have long e-mail conversations with my professors, but this system is pretty bad for getting letters of recommendation and all of that.

Two of my favorite areas are immunology and history. I think immunology is out at this point, but history isn't.

I'm really enjoying building an online business, but I don't want to study business in school.

I think I would enjoy teaching classes part-time as an adjunct. I think I would also love doing research, but I'm certainly not going to get a full time job anywhere that supports that sort of thing, so showing students that history can be fascinating would be good enough for me. I know adjuncts get paid poorly, so this is something I'd maybe like to do as I get older on a part-time basis.

I spent quite a bit of time on the Chronicle of Higher Education forums and the people there were all pretty dead set against anyone taking on ANY debt for a graduate degree in the humanities. From what I can gather, the pay sucks and it is really hard to get a job.

I gave up the idea when I realized my average income with a PhD in history would be about the same as my husband's once he graduates with a 4 year computer science degree. (So I took some Discrete Math and Programming with DH, and while I liked it and was good at it, I realized I'd rather "program" my sites and spend most of my time writing lol)

So, I want to pursue a graduate degree for the challenge of it and so it gives me the chance to do something interesting down the road.

One of my real life heros is an older guy who taught DH and I in a few math and science classes. He currently has something like 5 Master's degrees and 2 PhDs. He works part-time at several colleges and DH and I stayed after class several times with him to discuss life, quantum physics and his latest theories, and he was telling us how he stays under the radar with college politics because he wants no part of them. The guy is brilliant and one of the best teachers we've ever had. Part of the trade-off he makes is less money, for sure. ;D

I have two undergrad degrees. The first I did when I was in my 'doctor' phase, as well. It was an advanced major in biology with a minor in physics. I met my husband towards the end of it and had a complete change of heart about my career goal. I wanted a job that would enable me to be a part-time stay-at-home-mom, not a job that consumed my life! My second undergrad was in nursing and, while I didn't really enjoy parts of it, it lead to a great job. I took 10 years to learn, grow and excel at my job before seriously considering the return to school. I did my masters with a job in mind (nurse practitioner). It was imperative that I had a goal, because school with two small kids is no walk in the park!

I agree with what has been stated above... a graduate degree should be undertaken with a career or job in mind. It requires an undergrad beforehand, and I can attest to the benefit of taking your time and figuring out what your goal is before beginning studies.

I really enjoyed my masters program. Can't even compare it to the impersonal, cattle-through-the-gate experience with my first degree or the more-is-better philosophy of my nursing undergrad. The classes were small and the professors took a vested interest in their students.

Good luck with your studies!! I am taking at least 10 years before I revisit the idea of a PhD. My husband was yelling "Uncle!" by the end of my program and my kids were fed up. I can't do it to them right away.

Wanting to be home with my kid(s) is definitely influencing my decisions, too. How did you like being a nurse? I looked into that, too, but I thought I'd go nuts if I had to defer to the a doctor all the time. (I know my perception of things might be horribly wrong, but I spent all this time reading about being a nurse, looking at nursing forums, etc., and so many nurses were complaining about working under certain types of doctors.) My goal would've been to be a nurse practitioner as well.

I like these descriptions lol "Can't even compare it to the impersonal, cattle-through-the-gate experience with my first degree or the more-is-better philosophy of my nursing undergrad."
It is good to know a graduate program might be completely different.

My DH got out of the military and is working full time while also trying to finish up his degree. I know I need to wait until he is finished to start any classes again. We both dream of making enough while working from home someday so we can both stay home with our kids / homeschool / travel etc.

Hi islandofapples,

Have you considered teaching history (or biology) in high school? Job demand is not very high right now - it would depend on your locality - but it might be a good combination of your interests and the family-friendly schedule.

My B.S. was in Economics. I started a PhD program in Econ, but then had a change of heart and decided to go back to get a B.S. in Math. One semester shy of getting the B.S. I was offered a good job as an actuary and took it, did that for about 4 years, then quit to stay home with my kids. Now that they are in school full-time, I'm getting an M.Ed. in secondary math. Even though I didn't have my full math degree, the B.S. in Econ plus a lot of math coursework allowed me to be admitted to my program with only one undergrad math class to take.

A few of my classmates have graduate assistantships so that they get stipends to go to school. For me, it is a 15-month full-time program. If you're at all interested, consider that History and English are the most saturated markets, while Science and Math teachers are generally much more in demand.

I second the notion that graduate degrees should only be begun with an endpoint in mind. Think about what you really would like to do in the future, make a good plan, and go from there!

I've already written to you, so you know that I loved, loved, loved college. And I think with unlimited resources, I could have gone to the same college five times, majored in five different subjects, had five completely different sets of friends, and really enjoyed each time. My BA is in economics, but there was not much of a difference between the BA and the BS degrees where I went to school.

Are graduate programs really more rigorous? Well, I can think of a paper written by a high school student that was better than one I read by a graduate school classmate, so your mileage will vary. Although my GPA was considerably better in graduate school, I would also say that graduate school did kick my learning up a notch, and I've noticed that I really do think about issues differently--more analytically--than my friends who just have a BA. The university where I got my MA was a big, state-funded, research institution, and I'd say that the difference between the undergrads and graduate students there was more noticeable.

I'm a teacher, so my job is one that theoretically could be done with just an undergrad degree. I do get paid a little bit more for having an MA. If I had it to do over again, would I go straight into teaching and skip the MA? No way! Those were some of the best years of my life.

One more note, as someone who has served on a graduate school admission committee: do not try and second guess admissions committees. Each member of those committees has their own priorities, agendas, and biases. I've seen them unanimously turn down someone with solid grades and test scores, and I've seen them admit people with merely OK numbers for any number of reasons.

My undergrad experience was basically the worst experience of my entire life. I still get nightmares about it. Really. Large state school - I had a free ride for the Honors' Program.

I ultimately gave up and retreated into my room, slept, ate pizza, and played computer games all the time. My first semester's grades were a 3.75. At the end, I was getting 1.75's and failing classes right and left. I eventually graduated, took the LSAT, and went to law school.

Most of this had to do with me being extremely immature, particulary socially and emotionally. Actually practing law has helped immensely.

I'm pretty sure that college isn't supposed to completely destroy your sense of self worth and leave you feeling like your life is over. I wish I knew now what I knew then.

I majored in chemical engineering and had no interest in engineering. The weed out classes were pretty easy, since I didn't have to study or attend class and I could still get about a 3.5. My problem arose when I had to take the actual engineering classes, which required actual work. Having never put any effort into any academic subject, other than to simply sit there and absorb the information, the requirement to actually work and think in the upper level engineering classes basically destroyed me.

I don't really wish college on anyone.

I left college in much worse shape then when I had started. Basically, the worst I ever felt in my entire life was when I graduated from college.

I'm just glad that I wasn't paying for college.

Law school (T14) was better overall, but it wasn't very hard, and I could get back to may ways of not paying attention or doign work.

I didn't have any interest in either engineering or law. I just had to *do* something. I recommend not majoring or getting a graduate degree in something in which you have no interest.

Although I can give random advice about law as a career now that I've been practicing for 10 years. I have a pretty good idea of the general layout of the legal profession.

I'm personally still toying with the idea of going to medical school, but I don't feel like being sleep deprived.

I enjoyed college, although it wasn't particularly challenging until the end of grad school. It helped me realize that as much as I like science, working in a lab was not for me. My favorite part of my college experience was spending hours curled up in a chair in the library reading the latest journal articles.

Yes, this is very true. You are describing my husband here, alas (he has his "ABD"--short for "All but Dissertation," for those who don't know).

I got a BS degree in something that makes good money.

After working for a couple of years, I finally realized it's not what I wanted. I went for a graduate degree part time and worked full time. I was extra busy, but I love the challenges.

If money isn�t an issue, I would love to work in academia.

You sound like you have no idea what to do for your undergrad degree, let alone graduate school. Have you gone through any career counseling through your college? Have any trusted teachers who know you and your strengths and might provide guidance? Unless you develop a true passion or have a specific job in mind that requires a degree, I would not pursue graduate school at this time. Without a goal in mind, it sounds like you will be bidding your time and incurring expenses. I did that with mixed results.

As for my experience, I went to an Ivy league school for undergrad. I got my degree in something that initially interested me but that had lost it's spark by the time I finished it. I went ahead and just finished my degree since the culture at my school and finances dictated that I finish in 4 years. After that, I had no idea what to do so I applied to law school based on some specious logic. I went to a UC school back when they were cheap and excellent. I wanted to quit after my first year but had no better plan so I finished my degree.

I might have made different choices if I had had more real life experience especially before law school. Also I would have looked at different types of law and avoided big firm life. I learned the hard way that I like being involved in problem solving long before anyone would call a lawyer. I doubt that I could have come to that realization without work experience. Of the different careers I've had, being an ombudsman/internal advocate for an organization suited me best.

I think real life experience before law school would have been an excellent idea for me as well.

My biggest problem was a complete failure to adjust to college life. Also, my mother died from cancer when I was there and that just made everything worse. I was having a poor college experience (socially) and got a family death on top of that.

In my case, I probably should have worked at a larger law firm (it would have been easier to bill hours without having to cut my own time) than I did and in a different area. I went with intellectual property/patent law, which turned out to be an area in which I have no interest, although I can do it quite well.

I'm now essentially a litigator, also something in which I have no interest, although I can do it, as well.

So, the moral of the story is, definitely get real world experience before law school.

In terms of what I would have done differently, I would have gone to a smaller college, majored in something in which I had an interest, and not gone to law school. I would have also gotten work experience instead of going through 8 years straight of school while being completely miserable most of that time.

I posted my K-12 school experience in one of my first posts.

I tested out of most of the lower division classes and my first taste of college classes was Engineering Thermodynamics with an older German professor who used to teach at Caltech. It was a very non-trivial class. He got my number and I learned how to study for the first time.

I also took a lot of classics classes, ie Greek and Latin, and math classes. I liked upper level math better than upper division engineering due to the way it was taught - and with professors' urging switched my major to math.

The math program was very rigorous, small, collegial, and Socratic with students and professors having to daily defend solutions in front of the class. This approach put a premium on solving problems quickly and then being able to explain the solution or being able to follow a train of thought and then point out the errors immediately. It was a lot of fun and required an immense amount of preparation. It was like getting a Law degree in Math. I formed very close relationships with everyone in the program.

Later when I took upper division engineering and physics, I was clearly superior to the students ( and many professors) in those classes. I and other math majors were able to solve problems the professors could not. I ended up with a math degree heavy in engineering and classics that included 3 graduate level courses in math.

I took the GRE and got accepted at a number of places, but decided to go into industry as the job offers were very lucrative for those who could teach themselves and who could work hard. I later went back to MBA school which was trivial academically.

As far as schools go, it comes down to the programs and the professors. Based on my math experience, I would prefer smaller, niche, intense, Socratic programs at large state schools where there are 8-10 students max per upper division class. The large state schools will attract top professors and the students in the smaller programs will be self-selected for motivation and high intrinsic ability. Or smaller engineering programs where you can get a lot more of the professors' time.

The key is to end up obsessively working on something so you get very, very good at it within an environment that will support you academically and emotionally.


I second what Beckee said about grad programs. I took a few more graduate math courses at a different school a few years ago. I felt very different at that school as it was much more formal. I did very well with the stats/numeric methods profs but the algebra/topology professors were a different story.

I think intelligence is not fixed. I think that beyond a certain point, it comes down to hard work. In my math program we had a handful of bright people from Eastern Europe and China. They were clearly talented mathematically and had been singled out back home for extra preparation. They were clearly ahead when we started the Real Analysis/Abtract Algebra classes, but after the first few months, everyone caught up. The pace of work was so hard and we all worked so hard and lived and breathed math that they were soon in the middle of the pack. In later classes where you had to do original thinking and grunt stuff out, they were no better than anyone else.

After two years in the math program I went back to take some engineering and physics electives. Quantum physics was easy. Thermo was easy. It was all easy where it had been moderately difficult before.

I've also posted on here about my HS classmates who were not National Merit nor tested as I high as I did, yet they are all MDs leading departments, research PHDs with dozens of papers, etc.

The Polgars' life story really begs your question.

Polgar

No substitute for hard work!!!

Intelligence is pretty fixed. Skill level is improved with the right experience.

A lot of things come down to tacit knowledge that are separate from native intelligence. The only way to learn certain things is through experience. Not by book.

For example, in this bear market in the stock market, as opposed to the last bear market (2007), I was able to short the market at a much more appropriate time because I have been paying close attention to it for the past few years and I know what to look for now having absorbed a much greater amount of information.

My intelligence didn't change (in fact, it probably declined with age). But my market timing skill got better.