...hope she's OK.

me too

She's fine... Super busy, getting her house ready for sale and moving. I'll tell her she needs to pop herself in here!

Aw! You're so nice! Thanks for letting me know that people are worrying about me, Shari.

I'm fine.

I am even still around. I read the forums regularly, but I haven't had anything to contribute lately.

As Shari said, we're getting our house ready to sell, so I've been mudding drywall and putting together furniture. Plus we're homeschooling as usual and I'm still trying to find time to write. It's a little crazy!

But I still do check in. You can always PM me if you want to talk. I'm here.

How are you two doing?

Hi, Kriston! I'm glad you're fine--I've missed your perspective on several threads the last few months, and hoped that all was well with you. Moving house with little kids...oy...that's a lot of work, especially added on top of the usual load.

All is well chez Marx.

Take care of yourself--

mm

Things are going well with us too and I'm glad to hear you're busy with good stuff!

Actually, the other thing keeping us busy is testing for DS6's LD. I had planned to post about that once I knew something. Well, after today, I know something!

We've had two appointments so far with two different experts, and today's was really helpful. A language pathology expert (???) checked his receptive language and his ability to produce. There's *clearly* a weak spot in his ability to process what he hears and put his answers to questions about it into words.

His vocab and ability to respond physically to what he hears (by pointing to a picture when told to, for example), are far beyond his years. But ask him to answer a question about a story that he just heard, and he's lost. He also had some trouble saying words he knew when shown a picture. "Tip of the tongue syndrome" she called it, jokingly.

Producing language is clearly problematic for him. She doesn't recommend therapy, but she has some tips to help him. He needs to practice answering questions when someone reads to him. Of course we do some of this, but we need to do more. Among other things.

We don't have an official diagnosis yet, and really we don't know what this means. We have several more evaluations still to come. But something weird is going on, and it's clear to someone who knows what she's talking about and will be in a report. That's a good step for us at this point.

I've missed you too, Kriston!

Some of the old-timey readers (that are pretty easy) dated 1940's-50's are good for having questions after short stories. You can usually find them in antique stores and such. I rarely find them in used book stores. Did she say anything about expressive language disorder? I think we've talked about this before, but am unsure, since my son has ELD. That is a problem for him right now as well, but practicing with questions is helping. I haven't spoken to you in a while; but we recently discovered that DS5 also has visual tracking issues and some vestibular issues where he hadn't integrated primary reflexes yet...both causing him major issues. What a relief THAT was to hear!!! I knew that something was up. One more step towards clarity.:)

It's so good to hear that you are doing well and getting some answers!

Hi Kriston,

Glad all is well.

I have pretty bad tip-of-the-tongue... took a famous people recognition test once and scored a painful 32% (despite recognizing most of them I can not drag out the names). And crosswords, forget it. That's word retrieval difficulty. Separate from memory. Doesn't get in the way too much unless I'm trying to teach people anything technical -- so I stay away from teaching. It's also separate from recognition memory (multiple choice tests are no problem for me).

And then I have a very bright 11 year old nephew who can take 5 minutes to tell you a simple two sentence story, takes so much patience to listen to him talk around what he's trying to say. But once in a while it flows out and all of a sudden he sounds glib, usually those easy moments are off-the-cuff moments when he says something without thinking about it, a rude comment to his brother for example. I call his issue stammering, you just don't hear him stammer because it happens higher up before he starts a sentence. He consistently writes me completely easy reading letters with complex thoughts -- almost like the act of writing helps him organize his output.

How does your DS do with true false questions about a story you've read him? Ie is he understanding the story but just can't tell you the storyline? Or is he also having trouble understanding?

Either way it will be interesting to see when your DS is comfortable writing or typing how he comes out in print.

Polly

ELD specifically relates initially to the kid's brain not having set up the proper filing system in their heads, like other kids do naturally. So, simple things are sorted into categories initially to help them set up a system from which to pull information. And there's today's lesson.;) My DS can give very quick/witty responses as well; but explaining something he just read gets the response "I don't know." He does great on multiple choice questions about stories; but he cannot recant it unless he's read it a bunch of times. True/False is difficult as well if there is a small difference in the statement about a story.

I'm glad you're getting some answers, too, Mom0405!

Yes, we discussed ELD before. The specialist didn't give me any sort of diagnosis yet. Nothing. Not a glimmer. We were late getting out of there, too, so I didn't push a whole lot. She is writing up a report, and I hope that will tell me more. There's also more evaluations to go with other experts. They're working on getting a whole picture of what's happening, which I appreciate. Under the circumstances, I think that's what we need to do.

I hadn't really noticed how much trouble he had answering questions--any sort of questions!--about a story until I saw him today with the specialist. I don't think I have ever given him T/F questions unless he has read the story himself, and then he usually reads aloud to me because it seems to help his comprehension a great deal. I don't know that we've tried my reading to him and answering T/F questions very much.

I think he is also used to the way I read to him, so he is better at answering for me in general. I noticed when we were in the office of the developmental pediatrician for our initial intake meeting earlier in the month that DS6 kept looking to me when the doctor asked him a question. I don't think he was being shy, which is how it sometimes seemed to me in the past when he didn't answer questions without looking at me first. I realized that he was looking to me to ask the question again so he could understand it and produce an answer.

I don't know if the doctor caught it, but I did, and it's starting to fit into a clear pattern.

I'm not sure what diagnosis will come from the pattern, but there's a pattern!

BTW, since you mentioned memory, Polly, DS6 does have a marvelous memory, both long-term and working memory. I agree completely that that is separate from whatever is wrong here. In fact, I'm positive that one of the reasons he has such a good memory is because he uses it as a coping mechanism.

Oh, and I have a terrible memory for names and titles. Just awful. I don't know if it's the same thing (I tend to doubt it), but I have tip of the tongue syndrome like mad. I don't think that's quite as common for 6yos, however.

Have you had his hearing tested, Kriston? Just a shot in the dark, but a very faint bell reminding me of my brother (who is HG+, dyslexic, and hearing impaired) is ringing here as you describe him needing you to repeat the question for him in order to comprehend....

Here's a recent website I saw with a good description or severe ELD, and mild. I would never try to diagnose anyone's kids; but I am always trying to find new info on my son's stuff. http://www.childspeech.net/u_iv_h.html

Here's a separate one:
Read "Symptoms:" http://www.minddisorders.com/Del-Fi/Expressive-language-disorder.html

This isn't just for you Kriston; I feel almost obligated to pass on the info as I find it, because when I first started looking into ELD 3 years ago, there was nothing out there and I felt helpless. And finally, there is even info about older kids with it as they progress...thankfully.:)

My DS also has an amazing long term and working memory. And he does better when I repeat things as well; but I think that is because my DS just isn't focused on the question when it is delivered. But sometimes he just misses a portion of the question because he hyper-focuses on a part of it. He also has/had problems with several step commands initially, i.e. "Draw a red star under the tree and a pink bow next to the bear." This is something his SLP works on with him. "He would ask what color bow?" and get the rest correct. This has progressed a lot from the beginning. It absolutely would not have, if he wasn't homeschooled. It does need practice. I no longer doubt the hs decision.:)

I believe strongly from what I am learning about the vestibular system lately that coping mechanisms are a huge part of what these kids do to deal with their issues. They are wonderful, amazing, resilient little kids; but if they don't get help to straighten things out, it will not just wash out on its own (as someone said to me recently-for which I bit my lip). Things will get more difficult. This is absolutely not directed to you, Kriston. You know that I believe that you are so awesome for helping your kids!!! I am currently on my soapbox...and getting off.:O) Good night.

Yes, minniemarx. He has been tested and has normal hearing. It's pretty clearly some sort of processing issue. He hears the words, but they don't connect in his brain for some reason.

It's hard.

Thanks for the links, Mom0405! I'm always happy to be reading and researching.

I do think Auditory Processing Disorder fits all of his symptoms better than ELD, but he has not been diagnosed with anything yet. Certainly he does seem to have some sort of trouble expressing himself.

This is an interesting thread to me!

DS12 has trouble pulling words out of his head when he's speaking. You have to be very patient waiting for him to say what he's going to say, and you can just see his mind working to organize his thoughts. It's like he knows what he wants to say but is constantly searching for the right way to say it. He'll even correct himself in the middle and restate it in a better way. It got a little better when he started Adderall for ADHD-Inattentive type, I think because he's able to focus a bit better. But he just has trouble.

It also manifests itself when he's supposed to write anything in school. His first response is always, "I don't know" or to just use as few words as possible to get his gist across. While I know to ask him follow-up questions to draw his thoughts out more (and he almost always knows his facts well and has something more-than-adequate to say), his teachers just assume he doesn't know the answer or doesn't have any thoughts on the topic. For instance, when he writes papers, he'll write very basic sentences (often misspelled, often with bad captitalization). But if I ask him to explain why he said something (and I type it while he says it) he has more complex thoughts and can always explain his reasoning. When he took the WISC last year, in talking to the psych, I know that he often just said, "I don't know" or gave the shortest possible answer when really he knew much more than he was saying. Unfortunately, the psych just saw it as him not knowing the answers and scored accordingly. Interestingly, when DS scored at "college level" (13+) on story recall, which is in line with what we see at home, the psych dismissed the score as inaccurate.

Does this sound like ELD? He also has a history of many repeat ear infections as a younger child. While he's never been assessed for CAPD, he has some signs of it, but seems to learn very well when read to and fairly well when he's in class. He's never had any problems passing hearing tests, even when he had all the ear infections. He also has some signs of dyslexia, but they're more of the substituting words type than the reversing letters type.

We'd love to do something to help him and have tried any number of times to get people to look more closely at what we've seen, but since he's average, they just think we're looking for something that's not there. They don't even take into account that he has a family full of HG people and he's the only one not performing at a high level.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread!

And Kriston, I've missed your responses, too, and am glad to see you back and chatting!

Kriston,

DS5 has a dual diagnosis of Auditory/Language processing disorder. Problem is as far as I can tell, there is't really a difference between the two. There are days when he is the most responsive kid in the world and others when I might as well be speaking martian!

Because he also has SPD's they recommend that we treat those for a while first. I'm told that the treatment for the Auditory stuff is hard on kids with SPDs and he needs to get a handle on those before we do anything about the other.

There is a difference between the auditory and expressive; but I understand what Shari is saying. PT's work on the vestibular and other systems while working on SPDs; and once you get these things working, a lot of the other issues fall in place. I am not not trying to argue with you Shari.:)

My DS's PT for his visual and vestibular issues also says that some of his other stuff will get better as well once he gets his core working (his vestibular and proprioceptive) - it helps bring the right and left brain together through his core (middle of his body). The kids with these problems basically know what to do; but they just cannot get their bodies to do it.

You could try a few simple tests at home to see if there could be an issue. Can he do jumping jacks and skip correctly? If not, show him jumping jacks and tell him to follow you without explaining what he needs to do. Do the same for skipping...no verbal clues. Tell him great job for trying though. Another of these, stand up in front of him, with him standing in front of you, face to face. Put right arm out to the side and right leg out to the side at the same time (like half of a jumping jack). Then do the other side, again only showing him, without words. That may not be hard; but then show him right arm up with left leg extended, with no verbal clues. If this is difficult, this is not auditory, it is a vestibular issue, he is not thinking through his core, as the PT says - which I'll explain more later. Another one to try is marching, without verbal clues, standing face to face still. March lifting right knee and touching right hand to right knee as you lift it, and lift left knee, touching left hand to touch it. Then, the harder part, if this is an issue, is crossing over, again with no verbal clues. Show him marching touching right hand to left knee, and left hand to right knee. Lastly try having him stand on one foot and count how long he can do it; then switch feet. Let him balance himself anyway he can without touching walls, etc. Now ask him to close his eyes and do it. It should be about the same. He may have auditory issues; but these are separate from those since you are not telling him what to do.

I believe that this vestibular/proprioceptive issue could be, and I am speculating, a very widespread reason why a lot of these very bright kids are said to be not very coordinated. My son's PT includes exercises for "strength, symmetry, coordination and the integration of primitive reflexes that she uses with developing the Visual Ocular Reflex, which is the basis for ocular motor control."

Here is a really great article that I just found that ties all of these things together, stated simply. http://www.smileny.org/services/treatment-models/sensory-integration/

There are tons of other articles out there that you can read about how the vestibular system. I just found these two more; although I don't know who wrote them; but they seem to totally make sense.
Just ignore the heading [I don't know why it's there] http://www.causeof.org/neuro.htm
And http://www.causeof.org/neuro_vest.htm

Hope this helps (someone).

Not to ignore you, mnmom23:) But I don't know how ELD presents itself at an older age. The best way to know, is to find a recommended Speech and Language Pathologist that specializes in CAPD and ELD. They will be able to tell you if it is either. ELD can be a precursor "alert" to CAPD; but they won't try to diagnose CAPD until a child is 6. And we are not there yet.

My DS5 can tell me stories to type for him, and I can't keep up; but, when he has to write it down, it is much different; but he is only 5.:) And it would be something like retelling me parts of the movie Cars that he has seen a bazillion times; but he does rattle it off. So, he is not in a constant state of not getting his thoughts together. It is extremely apparent though, a lot of the time, that he has issues getting his thoughts into words/finding the words he wants to say to explain something. So often he over-simplifies what he wants to say and uses "stuff" and "things" often and descriptors. You can tell that he doesn't want to though. It is cute when he starts using some really big words, not typical 5yr old - Daddy words.:) You can tell that he has been practicing them and likes the words, i.e. "certainly" for "yes" (although yes and yeah are still prevalent:).

About the "I don't know's," that is something my DS does a lot; but I don't know if it is an ELD thing. The tester should have said "give it your best guess" and given him time. Our 1st psych tester did that as well; but my DS was 4 and non-cooperative for him. The psych couldn't think outside the box and had no tricks up his sleeve. My DS knew tons of things that he didn't feel the tester was worthy of his knowing that he knew.:) I am sorry that you had a bad one as well.

Like I said in the post above, there are so many things tied together; and I am not an expert (not degreed, that is).;) I just have to research and see what I can find. Just make sure that the person that you see is actually recommended to you AND that they do specialize in ELD and CAPD. Those two things are very, very important! There are tons of SLP's out there that do not know enough to make this kind of diagnosis without giving them "the CAPD test." They have to know the signs, etc. to be able to make a proper diagnosis. One last thing, find out now. Your son is probably very bright, but has been using coping mechanisms to get by all along. The sooner he gets the help, the better, for his self-esteem more than anything.:)

Good luck; and ask as many questions as you'd like.

Hi All
I'm really interested in what you are saying about ELD but didn't want to hijack this thread. I've started a new topic in the 2E forum so if you have a minute could you check out my questions?
Cheers
abra

I'll try those tests tomorrow, Mom0405. He has pretty good coordination, I think, so I doubt they'll be a problem. I don't think he has vestibular issues.

I do think he has trouble not just with producing answers, but with understanding the questions when he's asked. He often looks to me when another adult asks him something. All along, I thought he was being shy (which seemed odd because he is not a shy kid and never has been). I realized after his visit with the Language Pathologist that he's looking to me to translate the question for him, or at least to repeat it so he can understand it.

That's not a symptom of ELD, is it?

And friends, please feel free to hijack this thread. You won't offend me!

I don't know Kriston. I find myself repeating things for DS often; but most of the time it's due to making sure that he is paying attention first. He is distractable, especially in a new setting. His mind spins with all the things that can be made with new objects.:) Sometimes I have to re-word things, but not that often. I do not know if that's an ELD thing, it sounds more receptive than expressive; but you would have to be more specific. Does he not understand; or does he just need it repeated because he was dwelling on part of the question? My DS tends to dwell on parts of the question; so he doesn't get the whole thing, and it needs to be repeated for its entirety. Can you give an example? I hope that you get some answers soon.

He really doesn't understand. He pays attention. He doesn't seem to be drifting off into his own thoughts (although that's admittdly hard to be sure about). It really seems like he just doesn't understand.

The stories that the SLP read to him: she said most kids do well on the first one and get worse as they go along because they get bored and lose focus. But DS6 turned that pattern on its head. He missed every comprehension question on the first story, some to the point of giving the opposite answer that he should have given. He got not one part of a single question right. She read more stories and he got better as he went along. She said that was unusual and indicates a problem.

No one who has tested him thinks he has any sort of attention issues. He focuses. He doesn't seem to latch on to one part of the question as a general rule. He just doesn't understand what he hears.

Even if he's looking right at an adult who is asking him questions, even if he knows a question is coming, he generally cannot answer it unless I repeat it or even translate it sometimes. He definitely has an easier time understanding me than he does other adults. Even his dad has a harder time than I do with getting through to him.

That's why ELD doesn't seem as on point to me as some sort of auditory processing disorder, since an APD can cause problems with both hearing and reading, as well as with understanding and producing spoken language.

This sounds familiar. Ds8 has APD. I brought him to a speech therapist who proceeded to give him the generalized approach to treating CAPD, ie, giving him word pairs and asking which sounds the same or different, questions that relate to auditory memory etc. According to her, he scores around 40% with her. When I did similar work with him (part of the program is for continued practice at home), he scored a 100% each time. I even tried the more advanced sections of the book she said he wasnt ready for. It didn't matter- he still got 100% or nearly there. I asked him why and he said he's just so used to my voice, but he's not familiar with hers.

Kriston, does your son attend any external classes? What does the teacher say? I had had one or two comments that ds would volunteer unrelated information, but I didn't think much of it till the diagnosis.

Kriston, he is so fortunate to have you as a Mom!!! It does sound more like auditory (although I haven't made myself an expert on it) than just expressive. Will you be getting his testing back soon?

My DS was totally confused with T/F questions. He doesn't get that part of the sentence could be right or wrong; he's been use to multiple choice questions. I don't know what this is about; but I figure that it will just take practice. Is this more abstract?

Making a comment about blob's...I know that I absolutely cannot hear some people if they have low-toned voices; and I totally zone out. My overall hearing is fine. It seemed rude of me; but I didn't realize it until a few years ago (so it's not old age:). Now I just have to tell them to pretty much yell.:( I had to sit in the front row in classes or I'd zone out.

Please let me know if you need anything...and keep us updated.

Kriston, do you think he really needs you to restate the question, or is he using that strategy to buy time for processing his answer (i.e. producing language which you already know is difficult for him)?

I think he really doesn't understand. After restating/rewording a couple of the developmental pediatrician's questions to him, I got worried that she'd think I was a control freak, so I didn't say anything after one of her questions. I just waited. He looked at me the way one looks at a translator when one doesn't understand the langage: expectantly and with a sense of growing helplessness and fear when I didn't say anything. He wasn't thinking. He was waiting for me to help him.


He does attend a school-for-homeschoolers part time. However, he's probably *the* youngest kid in his classes, and he's so smart that I think he covers pretty well. His kindergarten teacher didn't really see it. But teachers of kids this age tend to "talk down" to kids--including repeating the same basic directions multiple times and using easy vocab--and people who do those things are far easier for him to understand.

He doesn't generally volunteer unrelated info in class, I don't think. At least not in any way that's unusual for a 6yo. But he *does* interrupt conversations with non sequiturs at home all the time. It's not rudeness. He's a kid who values manners. It's like he just doesn't even hear that people are talking. That's actually one of the things that made me think something wasn't right. It's like conversations going on around him are just background noise.

I suspect he comes off as a "normal" 6yo to his teachers right now. But so far I haven't see a lot of improvement in how well he understands what he hears, and I think there will come a day in the near future when more is expected of him and he just won't be able to give it. He'll seem inattentive or rude or not smart or like he doesn't care when (I think) the problem is really that he simply doesn't understand what is said to him.

I can't help thinking that college lectures will be a nightmare for him if we don't work on coping mechanisms early. Like now!

Kriston, I am assuming that he's had specialized hearing tests done as well for tones, etc.? I am grasping to try to help.

No, tones only so far. But I don't think it's a hearing problem; I think it's an understanding problem. I have never had any reason whatsoever to suspect hearing issues. It just doesn't look like that.