Had a conversation with my college roommate last night. She teaches high school and she was commented how incompetent kids have become at simple tasks.

She said that they cannot do for themselves because parents are always doing for them. It made me think. She mentioned as an example that a child asked for something and she told them it was in a certain drawer, he came back and said it wasn't, she said yes it was, and again same thing. She went over to the drawer -- which he had only pulled out halfway and pulled it out further and showed him the item. She said things like that happen frequently and never happened 10 years ago. It is like children are so coddled and never have a chance to truly fend for themselves and figure it out.

As much as Americans talk about the ingenuity of Americans, yet creativity quotients are declining, perhaps parents are to blame for destroying their children's ingenuity.

It made me think I do too much and let DD fend more for herself in doing stuff. Though it would take forever to get out the door in the morning for school. But I know my mother did not get me out the door for school by 1st grade. I did it myself and I went to school -- down the path, with other kids in the neighborhood.

Anyway, it made me think so I posted.

Ren

Reminds me of the 1st grade teacher that explained your child has legs and can walk at the parent orientation, (I carried DS8 then 6 around somewhat on the inital walk through)He also was a very strong promoter of them doing for themsleves, he cautioned us not to follow up on thier assigments and was a big supporter of natural consciquences. My DW has worked as an aid in a K class and mentioned how much more independent the children where when the parents are not their.

Funny, DH and I had a very similar conversation just this past weekend. We were attending a sporting event for DC, and arrived an hour early for set up. We looked around the gym, and virtually all the set up was being done by parents, while the children/participants were sitting in the stands watching. This is a sport that includes elementary through middle schoolers. There was no reason at all that these kids couldn't have helped.

So, DH and I got into a conversation about why this was, and we looked hard at our own lives. I am embarassed to tell you what we saw. Why are we cleaning the house, while DC are drawing/reading/playing? Answer: because it's easier to just do it ourselves, and because we haven't allowed the kids to learn the skills to do the jobs well/safely. (ouch!) Not that the kids don't have a few chores, but DH and I do most of the major housework.

Why does DS9 need our help with his in-class presentation preparation? Answer: He doesn't, but we seem to always feel the need to help and give advice. (ack!)

So, here is the direction I plan to give DS9 tonight about his upcoming in-class presentation. "You will be doing the rest of your project on your own. If there's something you don't know how to do (e.g., enlarging the diagrams from his source book on our not-so-friendly printer), let us know and we'll show you how. I do not plan to buy another display board, so be sure that you are careful with this one. If you need additional supplies, give Dad/I at least a few days' notice. We will not rush out to the store at the last minute for something. I suggest you get started early enough so that if you have questions, you will be able to ask your teacher about them."

We see that we are part of this global problem. I'm hoping this is a turning point in our lives. Anyone else guilty of this around here? Or is it just us?

Guilty!!! And we were also discussing these things this weekend... DC can't fold exactly like I like clothes to be folded (or hung), but they know where the tshirt drawer is and how to match up their socks! Yet I do it for them.

DS7 gets dressed for school every morning by himself, but on the weekends or at night, DH or I help him put his PJs or clothes on... some of it may be being guilty over working and not being home as much as maybe my parents were, but I, like Ren, walked to first grade with the crowd... these days aren't as safe as back then, but still!

Thank you for this thread!!! How liberating it feels to have this light bulb go off in my head!

For some reason, when DS turned 8 in December, he decided he was grown up. He got rid of a bug in the bathroom on his own, he threw away his "blankie" and he informed me that he was going to be on his own in 10 years. Many things I ask him now are answered by, "Mom, I'm 8 now, come on!"

So, I am guilty of pampering my son...but I am going to ride the wave of his independence and stop myself. (If I can...!)

Nan

This is something I feel quite strongly about. I read a lot on Montessori and it fits in nicely with my natural inclination towards benign neglect.

But even though I feel strongly about it and very much try to make my children as capable as I can, I still find myself slipping and doing things myself because it's quicker and easier. My three year old still makes me pour drinks for him, when DD was self-sufficient for drinks at his age. I think I need to have smaller containers in the fridge so they're not heavy.

It's not a common philosophy, though. At preschool people are still pouring drinks at snack time for FOUR year olds!


Me too! I'm so picky about how things are placed in the drawers, but I need to let that go if I'm going to teach my kids how to be competent self assured adults and not end up as the mother who's calling the law firm to find out why my kid didn't get the job..

According to their website, Habitat for Humanity allows volunteers as young as 16 to work on homes. I imagine kids would have an easier entree if their parents were regular volunteers. Seems inappropriate to try and spring a completely inexperienced 16 y.o. on a group of other volunteers.

Just an FYI for those with older kids.

We went the Montessori route as well, but it's a battle to stay on track. I was very gung ho when the kids were young but then slacked off. Although it's only now (at ages 8 and 9) that they are physically capable of doing many things.

I do think that it is much harder to raise a physically competant child than it was a generation ago. We are more automobile dependent, children may not be allowed to navigate public transportation on their own, adults outsource more physical tasks...

I've worked on a few Habitat builds and it was a great experience. I will continue to do so. I would love to have a garden, but I think that will have to wait a few years. Don't know if my kids will ever learn to work on a car because I don't know how and community college classes usually have minimum ages. We will likely be moving to a smaller home in the near future and I think that in a more manageble place the kids will be able to contribute a much greater portion of the work needed to run a household. Haven't given it much thought for my family, but attending classes and training a dog can also be a great instiller of competance.

Taking part in any aspect of the food prep cycle is a huge one. I am doing an adequate at best job in that area. I would love to hear from those who have their kids very involved in gardening, food shopping, cooking, clean up, etc.

I thought the same thing, and then I asked myself -- isn't that exactly what we're talking about here? Why is it inappropriate to spring a completely inexperienced 16yo on a group of volunteers? I am not 16, but would also be COMPLETELY inexperienced from a building a house kind of perspective. How's it different?

JS, I really hope you don't take offense. I mean it only as food for thought.

Just to add, and again, not to offend. I had my first real job (other than babysitting) at age 14. It was the legal work age then. I remember moving up to the job(s) that a 16 year old can do and being so excited - one job was as a fryer, and the other, eventually, was working at McDs. I was inexperienced at both jobs, but was trained by staff and other workers.

And as someone who has lived and has family in the birthplace of Habitat, it's probably one of the best organizations to gain those skills. People who receive those homes have to work on them as well, and 90% have no house building, painting, hammering skills. They won't give a 16 year old circular saw duties right off the bat, but they will throw a shovel or paint brush in his/her hands. Even if a new skill isn't learned, it teaches volunteerism, pride, accomplishment, work ethic, etc...

I wish they actually took volunteers earlier. I would love for DC to be a part of that!

Edited to add: Not all the people on a HH build are volunteers. While most are, they do have a paid/experienced "foreman".

They organize the builds into different weeks as well. They have builders one week, painters the next, gardeners the following, etc...

Uh oh... I still pour for my 5 & 7 year olds... granted, DS7 can do it himself, but DD5 is extremely careless. They do get their own snacks, make their own sandwiches and can fix their own plates at dinner if need be... but yeah, now I really have to go reevaluate.

I won't even discuss the bathroom issue then.

I think that's a good point, but I do think there is a very big difference between an inexperienced adult and an inexperienced 16 y.o. and those differences matter in this type of situation for two reasons:

1. Because they are more likely to negatively impact the participants' experiences and, more importantly, the outcome. They work on pretty tight schedules and certain things need to get done within their timeframes. There's also material wastage issues....

2. I think it might be hard for a 16 y.o. to secure the opportunity. If I were coordinating the build I would be hesitant to deal with an unknown 16 y.o. Both because the kid could be a nightmare and because if something happened I would feel responsible.

I'm not saying parental involvement should be a prerequisite, that just strikes me as the easiest route. I'm sure a very interested 16 y.o. could find a way to get involved on their own and that would be great. But I don't think it's a good spur of the moment school service project for a group of typical 16 y.o.s

My opinion may be colored by the fact that I view today's teens much as Wren's friend. Frankly, I don't have a lot of confidence in their abilities. Obviously there are individual teens who would be amazing. So I guess I'm just saying I think it's individual and not something that should be taken too lightly because other people will be affected.

Hey there are some kids who are lucky that breathing is automatic. If it took effort there would be a lot of blue kids. I remember checking students into the dorms in college with the helicopter parent answering address and phone. We would have to ask them to let the young adult handle it and please step back. When I tell people that it teach special education I always hear how patient I must be, My answer "No I am not patient, I want them to learn to do it for themselves, a patient person will do it for them forever.

I was a single parent from the time by daughter was three until she was eleven. I worked a lot but could not afford a babysitter after she turned 10. She had to do things for herself and I think maybe she felt more like an adult because of it. She didn't get along with her stepfather and even though she adored her new baby brother I couldn't talk her out of leaving as soon as she graduated high school. Now, even though she doesn't have a college degree she is making more money than some people with masters degrees in a job that usually requires a degree in sales and marketing. She is smart and had the right experience so she got the job. She is outperforming the people with the degrees. I remember all the phone calls I used to get from her teachers about how she wouldn't turn in her work and spent too much time socializing. Because she was very independent she would only spend her time doing what she wanted to do. I can certainly see how being independent is good in some ways, but in other ways...

My 12 year old son is different. He has to wear a scoliosis brace which makes it difficult to pick something up off the floor, to sit on the couch, to ride in the car, to breathe. The velcro straps, which fasten in back, come undone easily when he moves. There are so many things he can't do now and I don't give him a hard time about it. He has enough to deal with. We are focusing on academics for now. Even that is hard when he has migraine headaches, but medication helps with that if we are willing to put up with the side effects likes sleeping 12 hours a day and then still feeling like he is under the influence of the amitriptylene for a while after that.

He will have to take a crash course in independence when he no longer has to wear the brace--in three or four years.

JaneSmith, I actually agree with you about today's 16 yo's. That is what is frightening to me: when I realize I may be contributing to my two DC becoming part of what upsets me about today's youth.

When I think that my grandfather and uncle came to the US when my grandfather was 17, to live in Chicago with friends of the family. He spoke no English and had never seen snow. He got a job in the stockyards, took English classes at night, and sent money to support his family in Mexico until he and his brother raised enough for them to move here. AT 17!!!!

Certainly, the world has changed a lot since then. It feels irresponsible to let my kids walk home unobserved from the bus stop, which is probably 500 yards from my house. Would I let them walk to the store alone like my mom let me and my sister when we were their age? No way!

But, at least for me, I am realizing I have a LOT to improve on in the way of being less controlling and allowing them to have more independence. For me, this thread has been enlightening.

I guess it depends on where you live. This town is rural, pop 600. I see groups of kids all the time wandering the streets. Young kids play in the yard semi-supervised. Kids barely under pre-teen can walk to the park or ride bikes. There's the problem only of illegals passing through, but they don't hurt anybody. They might break into your house and steal clothes and food, or steal American looking clothes from your clothesline; but not if you have a dog and a fence.
My husband is a car enthusiast. I called him a nerdy mechanic for all the car parts he gets all excited about. Well, now he's trying to learn the oilfield machinery too. It's kind of his thing. It's a thing around here. Another thing around here is that the kids do 4-H. They raise goats and chickens, mainly, if they live in town and some 4-H kids raise cows and pigs at a ranch. They sell them and get prize money at the rodeo. The rodeo is funny. They start by calling all kids around 5yrs old into the arena. They let some chickens loose. Whoever catches it keeps it. Some kids are good. They catch it by the feet and carry them upside down.
Sometimes I'm bummed about the things we can't do. If we lived somewhere more civilized we'd leave the house and socialize every day. Our social life is at the playground at the mall a few times a month. Plus occasional events. But then we get back on this topic and I feel better. DS got the best of both worlds. He'll be able to write a computer program and turn the screwdriver to repair the hardware.

My 2c. If a sixteen year old wants to volunteer regardless of Maturity they should be encouraged. I've volunteered and volunteer organizations got some goofy charachters already there, and they're much older than 16. I wouldn't send a kid young enough to need a babysitter, but anyone older than that. I saw it mentioned that it would be for a school application not by choice. In that case I think maybe visiting the elderly, volunteering in a nursing home? Is visiting considered a community service?

Most people can't work on cars anymore because you need the computer interfaces to do it.

My children participate as much as they can in food prep. They shop with me, and I show them what parts of the plant are what, they put the shopping away when we get home, they peel carrots and cut them with pumpkin carving tools. When I bake they fetch things, measure and mix. They also help unpack the dishwasher and from time to time will "Wash" plastic ware in the sink. I don't let them near the stove for safety as they're pretty young.

They vacuum and sweep and mop the floors, plus load the dryer with my help.

Growing up we each had one night a week to cook dinner, and were responsible for our own laundry (although my mother had to step in with ironing because I have a religious objection to it). I can't even comprehend of parents helping their kids with schoolwork beyond the basic necessities, but maybe that's only because I only did homework in my senior year.

They sell the little handheld computer gadgets. But as far as I can tell they can turn a wrench here, but the main thing is knowing your car parts, and which parts you can upgrade besides just the rims and speakers, and knowing what kind of maintainance your car needs. A stitch in time saves nine. Especially if you're paying a computer trained mechanic then maintenance I s cheaper than repairs. If you know something on your car needs fixed and you put it off then not only do u still have to buy that one part new, you now have to replace whatever else broke while it was breaking.
Not that I know the first thing about it. If you can tell I'm just repeating one of the lectures my kids are getting from an early age. I have a feeling they'll know about cars. :-}

My boy just has to clean up after himself. And yes, it takes a lot more time for me to tell him "there's still more toys. They don't go in the livingroom.". Than it would take to do it myself. I let him wash a plate or a cup in the dishwater now and then. He washes his own hands and turns the water off. He lost that privledge one time. He dresses himself to the shoes, but they're just Velcro shoes. That was hard but I had to hothouse that skill because I already have to get myself and the baby ready. Me or the hubby will help him, but I made it clear it's all him now, and "please do it fasterly". That was the hard skill. Getting dressed was easy. The "fasterly, we're leaving" we struggle with. I don't know why ridiculous words help. I've given him full responsibility for dusting his drumset and I dont even remind him. It's splotchy and dust spotted, but I see him take a rag and clean his drum every few days. I just say, "good, a musician should take care of his own equipment". Not that I know about music either. He puts his own clothes in the dirty clothes room.

kind of late to the party with this conversation but I had to chime in. I have two groups of mom friends ones who have 18 to 29 year olds and ones who have 5 & 8 yr olds, because I have an older dd and two younger ones.

I have to tell you the problem just isn't in high school age it's also in the 18-29 yr old group. I'm one of those guilty parents, when my oldest was a child being that she was my first and if you remember in the 80's our coulture was changing it's views on what a child could do by themselves, trick or treating was out because of the weirdos who were putting things in the candy, no walking to school by themselves because of the weirdos who would steal your kid, ect... I hovered over her trying to be the best parent I could but age and wisdom had not set it yet so I created a child who can't do for herself, not making that mistake with the younger ones.

With the older one now 26 I finally just had to say, it's your life your responsable for it, I love you but I'm your mother not your keeper.

Speaking with my other mom friends in this age group their all having the same problem, their children have no work ethics and exspect mommy to take care of them. Like me they are all trying to cut the cord...

This is interesting. I was just talking with the dental hygenist this morning and she was saying that she saw a news clip saying that 90% of 2-5 year old children could run an app on an i-phone but couldn't manage to tie their own shoes. I'm guilty, my 3 and 5 year old play on the phone frequently but the 5 year old can't tie his own shoes and the 3 year old won't wipe after she goes potty.....

I remember that every kid in our neighborhood raked leaves, or mowed the lawn. Boys and girls shoveled driveways. I remember my father teaching us to clean the eavestrough, we had to get on the roof. But he was teaching us to take care of a house. We had to clean the storm windows/or screens and put them on. Kids did this back then and it was a neighborhood of professionals, engineers, doctors, dentists. We washed the car on Saturdays.

Maybe our parents had more patience and tolerance for how things were done, as long as we were learning and we learned it was faster to just to it ourselves.

I do know that since I started this thread, I have stopped myself many times. When DD is pulling her turtleneck off and says "help, its stuck", I respond "you can do it" and instead of reaching over to help, she gets it done. And when she asks for help and I say no, and she starts to complain, I told her I read an article that parents have to do this or their kid won't learn to solve problems. And she wants to be able to solve problems, right? That is why she must take her dictionary and pencils and put them back where they live in her room.


I did way too much...

Ren

Since you started this thread, I have also stopped myself many times!! So THANK YOU!

I've noticed that my third kid is way more independent than my first two. Since I'm often busy with something and he doesn't wan to wait, he just does things himself. I amazes me when my 5 year old goes and gets his own glass of water while his 11 year old sister sits there and expects me to do it! He has given me lots of perspective and forced me to tell his sister to deal with it herself more often.