Hi all. I posted an "I'm back" in the preschool section, but I had some developmental questions that I thought fit more here.

Some background....

DD is 3.9, she reads on an almost 4th grade level, spontaneously has figured out math (she was solving for x the other day and told me it was like a mystery) and she LOVES science and has asked for a 3rd grade science textbook after looking online at the quizes that went with it and being able to answer most of them correctly even though she has never been exposed to most of those concepts. She wants to be an orthopedic surgeon and "fix knees" and an "astronomer and study cool things in space, like astroids, and comets, and dwarf planets) Although she asked me the other day how she could do both.

I was told by her last Pediatrician to prepare for college at an age when she should be in middle school and in LOG she fits somewhere between a 4 and a 5. She hit every 4 milestone well before the ages listed, and in the descriptions, fit those about a year before they were done, but is slightly behind the level 5 milestones. Anyway, lets just say she keeps me busy all day and keeps me laughing.

Now that you have background, I need to know if some behaviors DH and I, as well as others are noticing are typical 3 year old, or something we should be concerned about. We really don't have a doctor to ask as we have just moved to a remote island in the Bering Sea. None of these appeared after the move, they were all present even before moving.

She gets extreamly overwhelmed with crowds. She won't talk at all although she talks constantly at home or one on one. She says the noises hurt. She also says this about my blender, or beaters, or the electric can opener and food processor, and the vacumme. So I am not sure what is going on with that. Any ideas? I thought she would have out grown it by now. At least she doesn't typically scream with them anymore, just leaves the room running if in the house, or covers her ears, sticks her fingers in her ears, etc if in a public place (she used to ask to leave, but now looks for a corner to go sit in away from everything)...but it is odd enough behavior that it is noticed in groups.

Its so hard for me to know what is age appropriate behavior. Although, I don't see the same things bothering her friends. I also dont see them getting as "locked in" as Dh and I call it. She gets very locked in on what she is doing and is extreamly quick to anger, like snap your fingers quick, and is in a full blown temper and anger if she is forced to stop. She seems physically distressed if she is not able to complete what she is doing in the exact perfect order. She also quickly angers if the person playing with her did not understand what she wanted and does it wrong or if "acting out characters" as DD calls it, is not done exactly the way she envisiond. Is that normal for 3.9?

She also can not be still. She can focus, very well if it is something she is into....but she is CONSTANTLY flapping and wiggling her fingers. Not her hands, just her fingers....ALL DAY. My mom asked about it tonight (and she just flew in today and had been here about 4 hours) She asked what that was about. DH and I are both wondering, and living here there is not really anyone to ask, although DH is suggesting that if it continues because it has become so disruptive to take her to see someone when we go to Louisiana this spring.

She also has a difficult time making eye contact. She will be listening to me or talking to me, but her eyes will be looking across the room in the other direction. When I tell her to look at me and I am talking to her, she will face me, but her eyes will be pointing in the other direction. I am not sure if this is just because she is annoyed and doesn't want to be listening or what. I am going to see if my mom notices it while she is here.

Okay, so is all this normal? We have been working on ways to cope, on appropriateness of actions, but often in the moment she just can't seem to stop enough to even hear.

Anyway, if you made it through this ramble, thank you. I just have lots of wondering and DH has been asking "is that normal?" and I honestly don't know.

It all sounds like a normal healthy child to me she sounds like a fine individual, but I found out much later that my own childhood wasn't anywhere near normal. So, I couldn't help you there. The way you're wording it you seem to be asking about aspbergers. Not saying that's what I think it is, just saying you pointed out the eye contact and finger flapping. Which people mention when asking about aspberger's. I would think it is normal behavior too, but then again, I never heard of aspbergers and barely heard of autism before.

Meanwhile, as we wait for someone to help you out better with that, may I recommend giving Aurora Lippor's Supercharged Science a try. I'm still trying to see if it works well for younger developed kid's. Mine's just turned 3 and he's nowhere near a 4th grade level anything. LoL. Let me tell you my latest story. I know he knows what half means (not the symbol), and he knows his numbers and can read (not solve) simple equations. Today I decided to show him fractions. I made a grid square (pg 1 calculus by and for kids, can't recommend it yet) and said look, here's a cake. I eat half and you eat half. I colored half, said there's your half. I said well I'm just going to take half of the half (colored it) there's one quarter. Which one's 1/2, top or bottom? I asked. He told me, told me which was 1/4. But then he told me, "you need to make yours bigger."

Oh yeah, ps. We're working on a way to calm down faster at my house. You'd have to practice this for fun when she's not over excited. And it will be a long time before she can control herself with this technique. Put an invisible orange in her hand. Tell her to squeeze all the juice out of it. Put one in her other hand. Squeeze out the juice. Now squeeze the juice out of both of them. Drop them on the floor and shake your hands. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Don't know if it works. But if it does, if you can learn to control yourself in the presence of fear, hurt, or anger then, well, you"ll have less problems to deal with all at once.

PPS. Please post pictures of Alaska, thanks.

Heh, like my post wasn't long enough already. I would call refusing to make eye contact the way you described it, when you're trying to talk, as being normal. If they were avoiding any contact and never initating it on their own, that's when I'd start to worry. Everybody's got an opinion right.

Normal to people on here and normal to the general population may be very different. I am very sensitive to light, smell, noise, etc. and my DD actually seeks intense levels of noise and that is very challenging. Yes, I think there is the issue of excitabilities, but I think OT has done wonders in our home.

As I have said in the past, my DD4.5 is very spirited, intense, unable to stop talking / moving, reactive, etc. While her "issues" are different (she is the overwhelming force and noise, and doesn't retreat or avoid eye contact) she was very controlling, prone to outbursts, etc. alongside having very advanced abilities.

We took her to an OT and she has been going once a week for months for OT for "sensory seeking." If there is anyone there who can assess for sensory issues, it might help you to decide if sensory issues are involved.

My DD4.5 has actually been doing ten times better lately and I am not exactly sure why. We are going ahead with an assessment to rule out anything else (ADHD, Aspergers) even though those things are looking less and less likely lately since her behavior has improved greatly. She has found one good friend and that seems to have helped her. This friend is her age and does not seem to be gifted in any way, but she is a kind, verbal, imaginative child who is good with give and take so my DD4.5 is thrilled to have someone who wants to act out scenes with her since many of the three and four year olds she played with actually were still doing parallel play which seems absurd to me, but we had a hard time finding someone who would join and interact with her at the level she craved.

My friend's child sounds alot like yours and he also appears to be gifted,but not to the extent your child is. My opinion is this: no matter how brilliant a child is, he or she should learn to interact in a respectful way with people of different ages, abiliites, temperments and that brilliance does not excuse "manners." I know kids with Aspergers really struggle with social niceties, but even if my DD had Aspergers, I would work on teaching her appropriate social behaviors. That's just my two cents. I want my child to be a kind respectful person no matter how creative or smart she is. In fact we stayed in a pre-K with kids far beneathe her ability because they were socially mature, kind children and we are working on that social piece and although it wasn't ideal, and she is frustrated with the class, it was the best we could pull together for now.

I am not saying what is going on with your DD is abnormal, just that I think it is best to check things out if it is possible. I know you are in a remote area and that reduces the social and professional resources. Have you done much reading online on sensory issues?

I think a lot of what you posted is very "normal" in our household too - the noise sensitivity (we had to leave the circus recently because she was crying after it started), the not sitting still but able to focus, etc.

Have you looked into Dabrowski's Overexcitabilities?

http://www.stephanietolan.com/dabrowskis.htm

(you can google and find tons of info)

But it explained a lot to me, my dd4.5 exhibits at least 3 of them, and helped me understand that a lot of her "quirks" are typical gifted behavior.

Side note: I enjoy reading your blog (I often comment - "Karin"). How is RightStart Math going?

lol, well normal is relative. I do think it is related to dabrowski's overexcitabilities. DS6 is a PG child who sounds quite similar to yours in some ways. He had much more extreme sound sensitivity as an infant and toddler, but seemed to pretty much grow out of it at 4/5 age. He still chooses to leave the room if I am vacuuming or using the food processor/mixer. But he doesn't freak out about it at all. Just walks out calmly. This was a child that used to reluctantly go into public restrooms with his hands on his ears and would anxiously look under the stall to see if other people were in there and was quite anxious about when they would randomly flush and the hand dryers as well. He would freak out when loud busses or motorcycles went by and we didn't even try fireworks until last year (with earplugs). He did great though, he is just more sensitive to sound. He has always been a kid that can hear things I can't even hear. He also notices all sorts of sounds so I think that is why he hums a lot, to drown out other sounds. My DS6 moves around a lot. In playing parcheesi last night he fell out of his chair 2 or 3 imes, lol. He definitely doesn't meet the criteria for ADHD, but he is a mover. He has a few other little quirks similar to your little girl. He does a finger thing where he rubs his fingers together, he also whisper repeats things (although this too has gotten a lot less). Anyhow, usually when a new little quirk comes along, another quirk fades away a little. I just figure this is our exciting life and hopefully his little quirks will become more manageable as he gets older and as he matures he will hopefully learn ways to still get that sensory stuff he is seeking in a less obvious way (foot tapping, chewing gum, doodling, etc.)

amazedmom, your D sounds very much like mine at that age, although we did not have the hand flapping. We had the noise sensitivity (the garbage disposal was a big issue!), terrible temper, perfectionism in interaction with other, and eye contact issues. D (now 15) has not been formally diagnosed with Aspergers, but when we had some other testing done last year, the psychologist commented that if he tested her for Aspergers, he was fairly sure she would have it.

It has gotten gradually better over the years. The temper is under control (thankfully!). The period of 3-5 was probably the most challenging (so you are right in the thick of it)! Regarding teaching my child "manners" -- what is so obvious to me and others regarding how to interact with others is a complete mystery to my D. She has a hard time reading facial expressions (even when she does make eye contact), so can't tell how other people are reacting to her. I notice when we watch movies together that she often misunderstands the characters' motives and behaviors. She also hates crowds. Honestly, it resulted in her withdrawing into herself quite a bit for several years. She knows perfectly well that what seems like an appropriate reaction to her may seem rude or awkward to others. She has gradually built a pretty good "toolkit" and can function fairly well, but it was hard.

She goes to a K-12 liberal-arts type school (fairly small, about 60 kids per grade), so that consistency has helped her be more comfortable socially. Although she has a very high IQ, we have made a decision to forego a more accelerated academic environment to keep her in the environment that seems to be helping her develop those interaction skills and in which she is comfortable. And we have supplemented with summer programs (eg, Davidson THINK, maybe a science research program this summer). She is also doing some studying on her own (currently preparing for the USA Biology Olympiad test). I think now (and this is the first year I would say it) that she will be ready in all ways for college in a year or two.

Flapping, twitching etc. is possibly just a sign of an excitable kid. But I would still have her tested to see if she's on the spectrum, due to avoidance of eye contact etc. Better to know early than late.

I agree. I probably should have added that at 3yo we took DS to a developmental pediatrician. I have a background in children's mental health and really didn't feel that he met the criteria for something on the spectrum, but his school was having difficulties with him and recommended it...so we figured it couldn't hurt. The results were that he does not have anything on the spectrum, but that he was just really bright and did some sensory seeking things (spinning, etc.). My DS has pretty good eye contact most of the time. He has had some periods of things that look like flapping, lately it is shoulder shrugging off and on when excited. Again, I don't think other people notice it at all as it is not frequent...but I notice those sorts of things. DS is very intune with other peoples emotions though. He notices tones of voice and wonders why someone is upset, he notices looks and comments on them (at 3yo he went up to a man at an older man at a restaurant who was sitting by himself and asked him why he was so sad...) Anyhow, sometimes there is a fine line between things that are on the spectrum and traits of highly gifted children that are not. If you are unsure at all, it is good to check it out and see. It can't hurt.

Really it is impossible for anyone to tell online. There is such a huge range. A behavior can be "okay" or "normal" in some kids but problematic if it is much more extreme for other kids.

My main suggestion would be to not focus on what looks normal but focus on how she is feeling. Is she upset more often than other kids? Is she in distress? Is she unhappy more often than she is happy? Does she need better ways to understand her intensity and better skills to cope with it?

I suggest focusing on that because that's what really matters. She sounds like a HG or PG kid and normal isn't really going to be in the cards for her, but happy could be. If you decide to get her evaluated when you are in Louisiana I would suggest planning ahead now and starting to find someone who is experienced at working with highly and profoundly gifted kids. Personally I would be very, very wary of getting her evaluated by anyone who doesn't specialize in giftedness because there is a huge likelihood of misdiagnosis from anyone who is not very familiar with working with these kids. You could always make an appointment for an evaluation now and cancel it if this stuff all passes by the time of the appointment.

Yep. Also, I just wanted to add that it's my understanding that a lot of gifted people (more than the rest of the populace anyway) show some traits associated with Asperger's, without actually having it; there's a sort of continuum of Aspergerness. So I wouldn't be alarmed at this stage, and I wouldn't necessarily make it my top priority for testing, though I would probably get it done just to lay any remote suspicions to rest. Good luck, amazedmom.

ETA: What shellymos said.

Thank you all so much! It doesn't feel like aspurgurs to me, but just didn't feel right. It really helps hearing all of yall's stories. I just checked out the overexcitabilitis, and wow...that fits. So I am going to have to show that to DH.

Karin! Hey! It's so good to "see" you. We actually only did 5 lessons in right start. Ansley hasn't been in the mood and we have been busy doing other stuff. So I have just put it aside for now. I figure we'll get to it when she wants. I have left the abacus out and she has been using that herself. She's been more focused on other stuff lately so I figured , whatever LOL.

I will read more later and post. Right now Ansley wants breakfast

Some of it sounds like age appropriate behavior (coping with sensory overload in a crowded place), but it appears jarring because she's so advanced cognitively that you'd expect her coping mechanisms to be too.

The hypersensitivity to sound- that's my son. He used to cry everyday at pre-school because of the rousing goodbye song they sang. From what I've been told, it's about management and maturing systems. The sensory seeking too. DS is coping better as he gets older. He has CAPD but it's a different set of behaviors altogether.

My son rubs at his fingers almost constantly. I have a theory- he has a huge bandwidth for information, almost like he was made to absorb and to think things through. Hence the sharp hearing, heightened awareness. When there is idle time, his brain fills it in with sensory seeking activities. Not extreme or dangerous, but just a sign of idle capacity somewhere inside.

I haven't read through the other posts so I might be duplicating.

The loud sounds and sensitivity to it is actually a normal thing for the HG+ kids. Look up SI (Sensory Integration). There is therapy for this and especially if it appears to be extreme.

As for the eye issues: it is hard to say at this age. She could very well just be annoyed with you and refusing to look at you. Do you notice it when not in that situation? It can be a flag for the spectrum. But if that is all you are witnessing I would just practice with her and see if it improves.

My DS6 does the same thing...now has callouses on his fingers. It's crazy, but I have to agree that I have the same sort of theory. That's why whenever DS6 has a sensory seeking behavior that lessens or goes away, something new always seems to surface.

Yes, when my child was 3-6, very sensitive to sound. I can only speak to this aspect. dishwasher, vacuum, a sudden loud noise, all problematic -- had to help child learn to adjust with some warning, tell child to go to room first, cover ears, etc etc

Also, loud birthday parties or a noisy/mall, child would be very sensitive. I actually think the child may be able to tolerate only so much and it may drain the child of his/her energy.

Some children find it easier to listen/hear when not having to look at a person because the facial expressions or body language is actually distracting. Rarely can a child that young explain it. Eventually my child was able to explain that fiddling with something in hand helped to focus when listening.

Sorry, not too much help here. Best of luck you.

She could be my son's double at that age. He wouldn't even flush his own toilet until he was 5, he couldn't handle the noise. Although we are foster parents, he has never been able to share his room although he has asked to several times. He HAS to have his own space to escape and de-frag. When we have company, he will visit for awhile, disappear to his room, then reappear. He tends to overload and needs time to re-orient himself.

OE's are something that many PG kiddos have. We've found that as he gets older, he has developed the coping skills he needs.

Thank you all so much. I really think after reading here and about the gifted over excitabilities, this is what I am seeing. And the more I think about the finger movement, it is really like someone said in here (I don't want to go back and find it right now LOL) but that she is wired to absorb, she does absorb everything, but this seems to help her focus so to speak. She reallyu does this while she is listening to something or I am reading to her. She will also do it if she can hold the book with one hand while she is reading. With the other she will move her fingers.

I think for now we are just going to keep working on helping her adjust and deal with these situations.

On another note. I had lunch with a friend of mine who is a middle school teacher, and she offered me the use of a lot of her resources and assessment testing that she has avialiable to her. This will be a huge help on such a small and isolate island.

Hi amazedmom,

The flapping/finger wriggling, the being "locked in" along with tantrums when her "lock" is challenged, the heavily scripted play-- these are characteristic autism spectrum traits. (My DS, 8, has Asperger's.) I don't think you can say for sure without an evaluation, but I think it's very much worth looking into. It's far better to know early.

I think you should consider having your DD evaluated by a neuropsychologist or a developmental pediatrician when you are next in a geographical position to do that. (Make arrangements for this early: qualified specialists often have enormous waiting lists.) We found it helpful to use the autism center of a children's hospital; other have had success with private practitioners.

I recommend Bashe and Kirby's book The OASIS Guide to Asperger Syndrome, and the OASIS website (http://www.aspergersyndrome.org/Home.aspx ), both of which were a lifeline for me.

Sohn and Grayson's book Parenting Your Asperger Child is also very good and deals with the phenomenon of being "locked in" (my family calls it "stuck") and how to stop those tantrums by building the skill of flexibility.

Stanley Greenspan's Floortime book is also good for helping build appropriate play skills and flexibility. There is a lot you can do on your own as a parent, even far away from institutional resources.

DeeDee

I agree with DeeDee--it seems like it would be very beneficial to get an evaluation and that it is far far better to know early if you are dealing with Asperger Syndrome. Also love the Floortime book here. Good luck!
S.

A couple thoughts from a parent who is further along this journey (dd is 12 and an 8th grader):

Some of the things you mention sound a lot like my dd at that age. Particularly the following:My dd has been seriously focused on marine mammology with a specialty in sirenians since age three. This is still what she wants to do.
While our ped never said anything of that sort to us, dd12 fits squarely into Ruff's level 4. She is not PG, though, so you may be in for a different route. All I can say is not to think too far ahead. Just plan for what she needs right now. My dd started K on the young end (early fall bd) and skipped 5th grade. She is still a stellar student and tests in the 99th percentile of everything except math post skip (same place she was pre-skip), but I don't believe that she'll be accelerating any further. Due to her slower processing speed and general happiness with where she is now, we feel that she doesn't need further acceleration.
We had the same with dd. She has sensory issues (overresponsive to noise and light) and is an introvert. She was dx with SPD/SID at 7.5, but has learned to cope as she's gotten older and, honestly, I believe that I could have been dx with the same as a child had anyone wanted to do so. It isn't debilitating for dd as an older child although it did lead to her never sleeping as a baby/toddler and being really high needs.

We sort of had this, sort of not. Dd had huge, melt down temper tantrums until about age 5. She morphed into a lovely child at 5. I didn't see her getting locked into something she was doing, but the temper tantrums were definitely there. I had neighbors who thought I was abusing her b/c she screamed so loud and so long. It took two adults to get her into a car seat if she was melting down as she arched her back and shrieked.

The things you mention that I did not see in my dd would be:


In any case, I'd see some of what you mention as possibly normal for an intense HG+ child, some of it possibly indicating sensory issues, and the lack of eye contact and flapping as something I might investigate more as possibly indicative of an ASD.