Hi everyone,

I've never really written on this site before but I have been following the conversations for about 2 years now when I started to suspect my son may be gifted. He is about to turn 5 in August and I am worried about Kindergarten. He's been tested for therapy services (speech therapy for articulation and physical therapy) as well as for school. The tests were interesting but I don't really know what to make of them since he took them at a young age (4.4-4.6) and I'm not sure how reliable they were. He scored a 96 percentile on the SB5 a 98 percentile on the OLSAT and then on the WPPSI he scored 100 (50 percentile on verbal and 130 (98%?)on verbal (he was sick and had to stop and returned the next day to finish up so this test but was still feeling uncooperative) . Basically it seems like he is gifted but not too extremely gifted. He started to read words at around 2.5 years old and is now reading about early 2nd grade. It seemed like he was much more gifted when he was young and even though he is still ahead of kids his age he doesn't seem to have the same kind of focus as when he was a toddler.

Anyway, this is really a post about math but I though you guys might like some general information. I've always felt like my son was really great at math. For example, at 2.5 we were making squares with popsicle sticks to build a farm. He had 2 sticks and then he ran out so I asked him how many more he needed and he counted out loud and said, "3, 4 oh, I need 2 more." By 2.5-3 years he could divide items to be shared and do addition and subtraction when situations requiring math presented itself. He always seemed to have very good number sense. So this year, the summer before kindergarten, I thought it would be a good idea to introduce some standard math. So we started to play a game called Go Fish 10 where rather than making pairs for the same number the objective was to make pairs that added up to ten. The problem is that after playing the game many many times he still can't remember the combinations (e.g. 7 and 3). He always has to count. We've also started to do a 1st grade math book (at his request) and he can't remember simple rules like 3+1 is 4 because you go one up from three. However, if say the equation as a word problem, he can figure out the answer. I just don't get it. I'm starting to worry that there is something going on with his memory but then this is the same child that memorized the entire lower case alphabet in 2 days at the age of 2! For example, when he was a toddler he could not count up to 10 for a long time but he already recognized all his number to 20 and now he still has trouble counting to 100 but he has been able to recognize his numbers to 100 since he was less than 3! He also can't remember lyrics to songs unless it is for his school concert and he's practiced it with his class repeatedly for weeks but yet he has a very rich vocabulary and seems to remember all sorts of information that we share with him. I'm just not sure if maybe he is very weak in something and we are just not picking it up. I don't want him to go into school which I know can contain a lot of rote learning and he ends up doing poorly. I've heard of kids who are great in math but do very poorly in school math. Has anyone had this problem with their child? Are their ways to help them cope? Please share you experiences and your advice. Thank you.

It is frustrating, isn't it? My DD7 (for whom IMHO math is not a strong suit, although that may be my bias more than her reality) had the problem 20-17 earlier this evening, and set it up as a subtraction with borrowing problem. If she'd thought to use her toes, I don't doubt she'd have done it by counting.

Her 11-months-younger cousin (whom I'd consider to be much more gifted in math - both girls were working the same 2nd grade math workbooks on vacation) is a finger-counter for much simpler math problems.

If it bothers you, flash cards might help. I figure that DD will eventually have a compelling-to-her reason to learn her addition and subtraction facts, and then she'll learn them.

My son doesn't liked to be timed either and gets very frustrated if he feels pressured. What kind of LD does your son have?

I completely agree with MON. He's 5, and for math, there is a developmental time line. What's intriguing is that your son is able to handle word problems, which means that his conceptual understanding is solid and is arguably, ahead of the curve. I would go on with practicing in the way he likes best, ie, doing fun word problems. Perhaps the imagery is providing a context for him to visualize that standalone math facts can't?

FWIW, at age 5, I remember my son couldn't count past 17 sequentially either, but he'd know things like 15-7 or 18+3 for math games. We never drilled for math facts, so it was startling. I just skipped the counting thing altogether (probably out of ignorance on my part!) in the belief that kids will eventually put it together. Luckily he did. Till now, he has problems with sequential information, so I'm trying to teach him to have some sequential habits.

I think that it is too early to worry about an actual learning disability. It sounds like he is ahead in some areas, and behind that (to the extent of perhaps being merely average) in a few areas. In the end, I think that knowing number relationships is certainly important, but that other problem-solving abilities may be more important in developing higher math ability.

Using manipulatives sounds like it might help in the short term. In addition I have been using the IXL website off and on for my new five-year-old, and if I recall correctly in the pre-K and K levels especially, there are some skills where they have numbers next to pictures for simple addition, etc. Things like that might help your son.

I also think that the advice to work on his strengths is excellent. I would do more and more complicated word problems and logic puzzles. Those often don't depend on counting skills much anyway, and they will build your son's confidence. You may learn that your son has a high ability for general logical reasoning more than a math talent, but we don't all need to be mathematicians anyway.

Thanks for the advice.

DS can do math addition and subtraction with the pictures. I was just seeing if he could move beyond that. Perhaps, he is not developmentally ready for it yet?

By the way, on two of the tests he took their were matrixes and he seemed to do average on them. Are these part of logic? This section really brought his score down. He plays these games from ThinkFun which are sort of like puzzles of sorts and he loves them and does very well at them. They are games for 6 year olds or 8 year olds and he's been playing them since he was 4. There is a game called Rush Hour Jr. and also Serpentile where you have to set up the game and the figure out how to solve the puzzle. Are these games logic games too?

I don't have a lot of advice for you, but I do have a great recommendation. My DS6 fell in love with the Rightstart Math program last year, and it sounds perfect for your son! It's very manipulative-based, and the premise is to teach the logic/understanding behind math instead of just rote memorization like many standards-based school math programs.

For example, when learning about place values, they first explored the idea on an abacus, then used picture cards with lots of "trading" games (10 1s for 1 10, etc), then to place value number cards, then on to adding with carrying. The card games that are tied to the lessons are very fun to share together, and it's amazing how much mental math they quickly pick up.

RS A is designed for kindergarteners, but it's easy to move at your own pace. Mine is at the end of C now, and is still having fun. He learned his multiplication facts cold in about 3 days from the way it was taught here, mostly through games.

Oh, and btw, they say subtraction is much harder developmentally than addition and even multiplication. In RS, they move through multi-digit addition before they really even approach subtraction (in 2nd grade materials). As you move forward, maybe continue with the addition concepts before subtraction? LEGOS are also a great tool for boys to learn multiplication!

Thanks I will try it. How do LEGOS help with multiplication?

When we were first introducing the concept of muliplication, we discovered that using the various LEGO sizes showed the "row x column" concept better than any workbook. For example, we'd say, "Can you please find the 4 x 2 block? Look at how there are 4 rows of studs (across) and 2 columns (down). 4 rows of 2 = 8, so this 4x2 block has 8 studs. Let's count the studs; yup, there are 8!" The light went on very quickly since DS loves LEGOS and he had a reason to discern between the 4-peg/6-peg/8-peg pieces. It only took 1 lesson, but muliplying was a cinch for him after that.

I thought that was what you meant. My ds and I were playing with them yesterday and I discover that but I didn't mention it to him. We did use them Legos to do a bit of adding and subtracting. For example, he made a column using 4x2 but then couldn't find anymore so he used 3x2 and then I asked him how many more he needed, etc. He seemed to like that so I'll have to remember it when it seems time to do multiplication. I just wanted to make sure you didn't mean something different. Thanks.

I definitely don't think that you need to worry at this point. But I do want to ask if you think that your DS is a visual learner in general? I ask because if so, you could introduce a number line and/or a number grid (numbers 1-120, say). I know these are used in 1st grade, at least, to make counting, adding and subtracting ("jumping") more salient. Also, I don't know if this is helpful to you or not, but when I was little I was learning to play the piano and began to associate the number line with the piano keyboard, such that middle C was 0 and the numbers to the right of that were positive numbers and the numbers to the left of that were negative numbers, and the black keys roughly represented decimals. Perhaps this general idea could help visualize counting up/adding and counting down/subtracting without the need for "word stories"? Although, I have to say, it is usually more difficult for kids eventually to understand word problems than rote memorization, so I really think your DS will have a leg up in math later.

This probably won't help; but we (DS5 and I) use RightStart Math. Is that what you are using? It does the Go Fish 10 game. We homeschool now. My DS is very VSL. Your description of your son being able to figure out the word probelms but doesn't seem to get the 3+1 is so much like mine. Wow, is it frustrating! My son got the Go Fish game I think only because I had a written cheat sheet next to our game initially while we were playing, until I thought that he was memorizing the combinations, then I took the sheet away. We played it as a memory game in the car, etc; but it is really making it memorization. He does not retain it unless he understands it most of the time though, unless it has been rotely practiced a lot. I think that my son needs to understand it. I have tried telling him that +1 is the next number, and several other ways. I have not tried a number line yet though. It will be my next step. We use an abacus or any tactile visual items and he is great; but just in his head, he doesn't get +1. It seems so frustrating when he seems to get so much more. Like I said, he is very VSL; and I know that it does have a lot to do with it, through my reading about VSLs. My son is 2E. I am waiting to have him tested again at age 6. I had him tested with an inexperienced-with-kids psych; although recommended by our ped. And it was a disaster; so it was not helpful. I found out what I already knew; but nothing specific. I know that something is up with mine; but I haven't figured it out yet. It may be auditory as well??? My son also has expressive language disorder; and is improving steadily...about a year or less behind now developmentally. His speech therapist works on a lot of auditory things with him; although he has not been diagnosed with APD. They cannot test until they are 6. The more that my DS can get combined in his head, the better he understands. He actually needs to learn through understanding; although he can learn songs and things like that through repetition. Mine is half way through his 1st grade curriculum in LA and Math, at about 2nd grade reading. He struggles with language and math rules, etc too. I think that it is best to just make sure that they don't see our frustration, keep things light with games that they make up, etc. Maybe they just need to think about it in lots of different ways. My son seems to learn some things in aha moments, and other things right away. It's so strange. I just wanted to let you know that I sympathize. Let me know what you try; and I will do the same. Best wishes and good luck!

I think the problem is developmental, moving from concrete problems to abstract. If I remember it correctly my kids too could answer "If you have 5 cookies and eat 2 of them, how many will you have left?" earlier than "How much is 5-2?" Who cares how much is 5-2? Cookies, now that's a different story

Keep changing 5+2 into word problems and let him play with manipulatives. It will all come together one day.