Hi all,

I was looking at one of Deborah Ruf's blogs (can't remember which one - outlining levels of giftedness or something similar) and one of her indicators was the child questioning Santa and the Tooth Fairy age 2-3.

DS7 still believes in Santa and the Tooth Fairy. Is he alone?

Perhaps I'm being hoodwinked.....

both of my younger ones 4 & 6 don't have a clue, but DD6 is starting to ask if certain things are real, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before we get to Santa and the tooth fairy. BTW on the Ruf levels DD6 is a for sure a 4 and did all the level 5's except for 5 things Santa being one of those things (that includes some things because we didn't think to try like the computer at age 2). and DD4 is about a solid 3.

DD6 is still a firm believer in both the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus, and on Ruff's levels we (DH and I) can't agree on whether she is a 4 or a 5. I do not see those two beliefs going away any time soon either. I think she really likes the idea that we believe in something as "strange" as Santa and the Tooth Fairy (oh, and don't forget the Easter Bunny) when we are always reminding her that movies about fairies and witches and mermaids and things are not real. (Sensitivity issues with getting scared and upset at movies with these characters in them.)

Just my opinion on the inclusion of this on the lists, but I really think it depends on the child's strengths. If you have a child that is more logical than the chance that they question Santa and the Tooth Fairy is higher. I also don't think that a child has to hit all of the things on Ruf's lists. The list is from her dealings with multiple children and not every child she dealt with would be able to fit into that list exactly as she designed it. (I am betting on that!)

Since my DD is still a toddler it is hard to say which level she is at but Ruf's lists opened my eyes to a lot of what we were experiencing. And yet I still have questions on things such as a child that has known her right from her left before she was 2... were does that fall in the levels? My point is Ruf doesn't have all the answers but she opens the door to our thinking about it.

I remember keeping my mouth shut about that subject until I was, like, 14. I wasn't going to blow a good gig any sooner than necessary. I would be curious how DS6 talks about this with his friends, since he hasn't yet tipped his hand to us.

Ruf says this right in the book, so don't bet against Katelyn'sMom! ((Humor Alert))

What's very interesting is how the ideas in our minds (gifted denial) for example, twist the very information and memory to keep themselves alive, long past the time when we've had opportunity to 'know better.'

I'd love to see Ruf's research expaned to include 2000 kids, and I'm sure that things would change a bit. This reminds me of the 'joke' about what a 'female-baiased' IQ test might look like:
1)Watch an hour soap opera - name all the characters and map their relationships.
2)Find 20 items hidden and then scattered in this mock kitchen.
3)A 2 month old baby is crying - figure out why

Love and more Love,
Grinity

DS9 still believes, but it could be due to Santa and the Tooth Fairy being pretty persistent. Santa's been known to leave notes and then there were the gifts that were waiting for us at our house when we were two states away..... I'd bet some of this has led to DS writing notes to the Tooth Fairy and well, it was so stinkin' cute that the Tooth Fairy had to write back.

I think that DS *wants* to believe because it's fun and magical. DSs teacher does this really cool thing for St. Patrick's Day involving a leprechaun on the loose and the kids just had a ball looking for this mischievous creature. I remember commenting that I didn't realize so many kids at this age still believe in things like that. I thought DS was a little behind the curve and that he was probably one of the last ones to figure it out. Logically, I think DS has got it, but we make it so much fun that he's not ready to give it up entirely just yet.

Be careful on Ruf's levels -- a friend of ours just tested with Ruf, with one of the most unbelievable children I've ever seen, and Ruf placed this kid, with one of the highest SB5 scores Ruf has ever seen, at a "high 4, low 5" just because the kid isn't in love with doing math! She's perfectly capable of doing math, ceilinged all her achievement subtests, etc., but just doesn't love the act of doing math. She'd have been a 5 (or a 6, LOL) if you'd asked me before the testing!

Level 5s are really, really rare ("serendipitous," I think, is the word Ruf uses -- so if your dc isn't in that category, it doesn't mean he's not PG. My ds is a DYS and I'd put him a high-3 to mid-4 -- definitely not a 5, imo. Also, the levels are very subjective. It's just another way of grouping, as Grin puts it, the "mildly PG" and the "wildly PG."

The book is a nice intro into the world of gt kids. I personally like more the parents stories and quotes than the milestone lists, but that's just me. The book was a big eye opener when our older one was 3 but I haven't even tried to find LOG for DS4. Let's face these are results of Ruf's very limited "study".

DYS6 still believes in Santa and Tooth Fairy

I always took that Santa Clause/Tooth Fairy idea to mean when the child first realized that it might not be likely to be true. You could tell DD9 had kind of figured it out at 5, but the idea of it bothered her so much she was very conflicted about it. I think she still wanted to believe and didn't want to deal with the reality of the fantasy, IYKWIM...
I also think there was a fair bit of strategy involved, IE, if they know I figured it out they might not get any more stuff,or at least as much, LOL!
I swore up and down until sixth grade(!!!!) that I believed because I thought that statement had a direct relation to the amount of presents I would receive.....so devious!!

DD6 started asking me questions at 4, but I answered her with questions. She'd ask who puts out the presents, and I'd ask, who do you think does it, etc. She thought it was us, but I'd never confirm it while I thought she was still uncomfortable with the idea.

She finally let me off the hook this year! On Black Friday I was out of the house by 5a.m., back by about 6:30. I thought everyone was still asleep, however, she came downstairs about 15 minutes later, sat next to me and said: "I know you put the presents under the tree". I'm still not sure where that came from, because I hadn't even taken the "goodies" out of the trunk of the car, yet somehow she knew where I had been and what I had been doing!!

I definitely agree that estimating a child's LOG, is just an estimate. In Mia's friend's case, I surely think the parent has more subjective evidence to place that child's LOG, than Ruf would have access to in a limited testing situation.

As a *soft* science, though, I still do find the categorizations useful. It's especially interesting to me as a parent, that my youngest seems to have a Ruf LOG that is higher than her WPPSI score would indicate..........

Neato

Yes. I remember fearing if my parents thought I didn't believe that I wouldn't get anything... plus blessidly she keeps up a good front for the littlest - I know the middle isn't buying it though.

We all still belive hear. DW, DS16 and DS6. If you don't believe Santa will not give you presents. Same with the Tooth Fairy (Only two teeth so far). That being said, we play it up big, and keep it fun. If DS6 knows, he keeps it to himself. As far as the ruff scale YMMV.

DS6 told me he "chooses" to believe. I guess that means it will last as long as he wants it to.

DD figured it out at 3.5 and I was actually a little sad. Her logic was that, "no one can read minds" and Santa knowing what millions and millions of kids want requires mind-reading. (I guess she wouldn't have figured it out if we had counter-proposed that Santa used a massive database with a web front for all the parents to "order" from. :-) )

Of course, we still do Christmas and Easter Bunny as if she didn't know, but it was way more fun for us when she believed :-)

Having said this, this issue became an important part of our battle with DD's Montessori school. We wanted DD accelerated (skipping K.) They initially told us that the reason they never accelerated was because of Montessori's idea of "planes of development." They told us that kids transition from the "first plane" to the "second" at age six.

As part of our advocacy we researched precisely what Maria Montessori considered as differentiators between these two "planes of development." It turns out the key difference (according to MM) is the ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality-- the ability to know when something (like Santa) is "make-believe."

Although our advocacy ultimately failed (which makes us so sad I cannot even articulate...) showing them that Montessori's idea of what generally happens at age six is really analogous to what Ruf's giftedness research suggests is happening with gifted kids at an earlier age, really went a long way in our convincing them that "the planes of development" is a continuum, and that modern understandings of giftedness have a lot to say about the same sort of things Montessori was saying 100 years. Too bad they couldn't get past the size of DD on the playground. But as DH says, 'they did us a favor-- DD will be immensly happier and learn way more homeschooling next year..." *sigh*

Yeah, those guys (and the Easter Bunny) can be that way, can't they? DS6 is still a believer, but my family tradition is rather active and aggressive when it comes to holiday characters. I had to insist on being off work for Christmas year before last, because we had a meltdown over having to move Easter to Wednesday when I was off. His friends told him the Easter Bunny would not come on Wednesday, and I had to explain that I have known the Easter Bunny all my life and he would come when I asked him to! Sure enough, he did, and DS was proud to tell his friends about that one. But I knew I couldn't get away with it anymore, so I had to be off for Christmas.

I had to laugh a couple weeks ago--DS wanted to take his new calculator to bed, and was trying to figure out where to put it so it wouldn't fall out of bed. I told him to put it under his pillow. He said, "No, I can't do that, because then the Calculator Fairy would come and take it!" I had to admit that I have never seen the Calculator Fairy--I guess that's because I never put a calculator under my pillow!

To me it just seems sort of like nonsense on the level of a quiz in Glamor Magazine quiz or something. I don't understand why anyone puts stock in these levels because the sample size was minute and the questions clearly indicate a particular cultural bias. It concerns me when they are at times elevated to a position of meaning beyond more validated measures like IQ scores or achievement. It doesn't seem to me that at all even consider where 2e children (and that's a pretty sizable part of the PG population) might fit.

Our child is on I guess what you'd call "wildly" PG in terms of scores on IQ and acheivement, SAT scores while young. He's been highly achieving including young entrance into college. As I recall he would get maybe a three on the Ruf scale. So, say I'd gone to these scales when he was a preschooler before he'd been tested. What would my take away message have been? Don't bother?

I have to agree with JDAx3 and Nautigal, my 7 y/o still believes but i think it has a lot to do with how big a deal we make of it. we go out of our way to keep the magic alive - i did it for years as a child even long after i knew and my parents knew i knew, i didn't stop writing letters to santa until long into high school! it was part of the fun of it. My boy is an extremely logical one, but he also has a wonderful imagination and he goes with it. We've also been lucky that there is a fabulous local Santa who comes to our office every year - for pics - but my son has written santa a letter every year and hand delivered it. I freaked when i found out his school would have a Santa visit too... but it was the same Santa! i really lucked out there.... at his school they also do a big deal with the mischievous leprechaun, so that helps too

There are a couple of fabulous books about Santa and the Reindeer that explain a lot about the magic, Santa's helpers, etc. Those have been a wonderful addition to our repertoire. And we have lots of stories about why different books may have different stories, pictures, etc (it's a mystery, magic often is!).

I think there is something to how much the parents want to keep it alive, frankly, that the kids sense too... I think if i'd let him, big man would have "figured it out" sooner... heck, for all i know he has deep down, but he's into it hook line and sinker, just like his dad and I... and the little one is along for the ride! (his imagination is even more active, so he's just added on to the story....)

All that said, i'm glad someone asked the question... i'd wondered the same thing myself!!

The easter bunny never had a chance. I don't thing DS4 ever believed in that. He is way to logical and he knows he has never seen a bunny that big and it never made sense. Santa? I am not sure if he ever has believed in him. He goes along with it, but never asks much about it. We haven't even gotten to the tooth fairy. He is such a logical kid. I don't feel comfortable telling him that they exist when they don't, so with the santa thing I try to make it exciting and have some mystery. We have read books about santa and things like that. I never have told him he is not real, I basically skirt around it with things like "that's what people say" or "what do you think? or "how do you think these presents get here?" or other things like that. It kind of makes me sad about it that he doesn't seem really excited about the whole Santa thing. But not much else I can do I guess, he is who he is.

We are a Christian family, and while he does ask lots of questions, oddly enough he has never asked if God was real or anything like that. So I suppose he is able to believe in some things that he can not see.

DD8 I'm never sure. Several years ago I got point blank questioned was I santa because a kid at school had noticed that santa's handwriting matched his mom's. Taken aback I don't know how well I asked well what do you think? She never lets on. I think I took the if you don't believe no presents approach. She's very fanciful and imaginative so even though she knows things aren't real I think she likes to believe. I also think the parents have to be smart about it if you want the illusion. ie, I disguised my writing and eventually made printed labels.

Of course last month the "tooth fairy" fell asleep, so DD8 just comes up with the tooth fairy must have sundays off. I can't imagine someone at school hasn't blown it.

DD4 is more straightforward and will probably just come out and tell us.....

I vaguely remember reading Santa Mouse to DS5 when he was 2. At the end there is something like "and i believe, don't you?" DS gave me a look like, "you mean there's some reason not to believe in him?" I just ignored the look and moved on to something else quickly. Since then, he has had questions every year, and we have had to work very hard to convince him that Santa is real (because we think this is fun). This past year, Daddy agreed to take shifts with DS then 4, standing guard by the tree, so he could see Santa. Of course, they both fell asleep. He tried to get me to take a shift, but I of course know that Santa does not come if you are not asleep, and so I went straight to bed! I think he doesn't really believe, but he likes to think there's a possibility of such cool magic. About a week ago, we were dropping something off at my mom's house while she was napping. I said to be quiet not to wake her, and DS5 said, "Grandma will think Santa or the Easter Bunny was here!"

As for Ruf's levels, she herself calls them estimates. Her book helped me to know there even are different levels of giftedness, and that kids' needs will vary widely. (Also, we do have one of those kids who fell into the levels pretty nicely, so the book really spoke to us.)

I had that book as a child and loved it! I found it at Barnes and Noble, I think, a year or two ago and bought it for the girls.......so sweet!!

I agree that Ruf's levels were helpful to our family, especially in terms of my family being so gifted denial.

I disagree with this approach: The all or nothing attitude. I think you are valid with the fact that her case study was minimal but to then jump to the conclusion that her work is equal to quizzes in magazines ... really not a fair comparison. I know that a lot of parents laugh at the line up of their child(ren) to Ruf's levels and yes it is not absolute and Ruf admits that in her book but her work definitely has its place in the gifted community. She really opened my eyes for what I was seeing. And yes my daughter is the poster child for Ruf's levels through the infant and toddler years.

my HG+ DD4 asked me one day what the trucks did that had the word "FEDEX" on them. I said they deliver packages. So she replied that FEDEX brings christmas presents, not santa.. So i said, you are very clever little girl, always thinking! (but did not really agree or disagree about the santa thing).. That was a year ago. Now she believes in Santa again and has dropped teh FEDEX idea. So some of it is what they want to believe, but the difference being that they are thinking about it in a more advanced way then their peers who would never question it.

irene

Well I guess I need to revise my last reply. I took DD6 to the dentist this morning to have her two bottom front teeth removed, big teeth coming in the back and the baby teeth weren't coming out. These are the first baby teeth to come out. At home I asked her if she wanted to put them in a envelope and put them under her pillow. She said "oh mom, I don't believe in the tooth fariy" My 4 year old let me know that she still believes

My DS started questioning Santa last Christmas. He was 4 then. I answered his questions with questions. Over the summer, he was 5 then, he announced one night at dinner that Santa didn't exist. I told him that Santa lived in his heart and if he believed in the spirit of Santa then he must exist. So far this Christmas season he hasn't denounced Santa again, not sure if my little talk with him helped this summer or if it's too close to Christmas to take a chance on getting presents or not.

I would say he is a very logical child, math is his strongest area, but he does have a fancy for the "supernatural" and prefers to read and watch movies like Spinderwick, Chronicles of Narnia.

DS6 has questioned Santa and the tooth fairy since he was 4 but not to the point of disbelieving. He asks questions, but he never asks enough to result in NO MORE SANTA. I'm not sure if that's by design or not. We had this conversation a month ago:

Mom: "I wonder what the tooth fairy looks like?"
DS6: "Um, a fairy, Mom. She looks like a fairy. And, you knew fairies are only in fairy tales, right?"
Mom: "Even the tooth fairy?"
DS6: "Well, maybe the tooth fairy is real, or maybe you or dad just sneak in my room after I fall asleep and put $2 under my pillow."

As for Santa, last year he wanted to set up a hidden camera to see if he could catch Santa in action. His assumption was that if Santa is real, he'd see him. So, we set up the camera, and ds went to bed. Dh dressed up in a Santa costume, made noise by the fireplace, and stomped into the room carrying toys back and forth from the fireplace (which was just out of view of the camera). You could see all of Santa from the mouth down, so he never could see the full face to ID dad. He could even see him eating the cookies and drinking milk, but again it was only from the mouth down. He even caught Santa scratching his bum. It was hilarious!

Have you heard of Elf on a Shelf? It's an elf doll that visits each December and hangs around watching kids to see if they are naugty or nice. At night it reports your behavior back to Santa and reappears at a new place in your home each morning. The kids run around looking for it each morning. You can't touch him because it takes away his magic or something like that. Anyway, again, we had to pull out the video camera. Ds videoed the elf disappearing in a flash of light with a loud "magical" noise. Thank goodness for digital editing software. It's awesome. I don't think I've laughed that hard in years. Our friends all showed the video to their kids too, and I think we'll all get a little mileage out of that one. My guess it it helped to extend the believing years by at least a year. I'm not sure we have much longer; Unfortunately, I'd say it's probably our last year. : (

When I was 8, I finally asked my parents if Santa was real, and my dad told me the truth. Interestingly, I was one of only two children in my entire grade who believed any longer. I wouldn't belive the other kids until I heard it from my parents!

My CJ8 still believes but then again our family is one to be enthralled by the magic of it all. We embrace the wonder of each thing.

At 4/r he noticed the wrapping paper was the same on some presents from Santa as those for other family members. Since then he has his own special paper that has to be hidden to maintain the secret. They grow up so fast and see such ugliness that I want him to appreciate the simple things as well.

I've told Wolf that Santa is the Spirit of Giving and lives in all of our hearts. Did I mention I still believe in Santa?

My DD3 still believes in Santa as far as I know, but I have to be on my toes since she doesn't miss a thing. I want her to enjoy this magical time and to indulge in fantasy a bit. For all I know this may be her last Christmas believing since so many start to question around four. If we go to visit the mall Santa and another Santa and they look different in any way, which they will, she will notice and ask. I am surprised others don't, but I think she wants to believe.

Wyldkat, we do almost exactly the same as you. Santa is part of the 'Spirit of Christmas' (open-heartedness, giving etc. which we celebrate at this time of year). This helps a lot when I have an 8 year old who 'knows', and I don't want to seen to be lying to the younger siblings or having lied to him. DS8 and I can 'believe' in Santa too.

Okay, according to Ruf I fall stronlgy high level 3 myself and I believed for a long time, and then I tried to hang onto it till middle school because I wanted it to be true and because I loved the idea of it. I hope DD (who seems to fit level 4) believes for a very long time.

Here is a mistake I made as a first year homeschooler. Every year, I do my "Santa" shopping on Amazon. When things were delivered, I'd hide them away till Santa came on Christmas Eve, easy peasy. This year, I ordered as usual, completely forgetting that DD9 is home 24/7 these days. And, she still believes (actually, I think she still WANTS to believe but really knows the score). The Amazon deliveries start coming and every time the doorbell rings, she is at the door in a flash, nosy as can be. I've managed to cover with lying through my teeth, deliveries for Daddy, a friend who has no basement needs help hiding gifts, etc. Of course, Dad ordered her a keyboard that wasn't in the Amazon, brown box. That was a trick to cover. And one day, I opened our garage to take her to piano and a tricycle that Santa is bringing to DS2 was sitting in the middle of the driveway, in a box but full color pictures on all sides. I yelled at her to go downstairs to get me a coat just as she was coming out the door. She looked at me like I was crazy, it was about 75 degrees outside at the time and I never wear coats even when it's cold. But she did it and I managed to hide the box under some garage junk. I really think that she knows, especially after all the dancing that I've been doing over the last few weeks. But, she is a sweet, precious dreamer and even when she knows for sure, I think a part of her will always watch the sky for the red glow.

Just a reminder to new, homeschooling families who do Santa, don't forget about deliveries!!

Happy Holidays everyone!!

Had to find this thread. It finally happened.

DS - "Hey, Mom. How do I know Santa is real? Maybe you and Glen are secretly rich or maybe you just save money all year and then you buy us all the gifts for Christmas but wrap them up and write 'from Santa' on them."

Me - "What do you think the chance is that Glen and I are secretly rich?"

DS - "Slim to None - guess it must be Santa then."

It took a lot not to start laughing at the logic that Santa seems like a more realistic option than me being secretly rich!

I do have a sneaking suspicion that he is on to us but still hoping Santa is for real.

PearlyBob, I think the fact that he discovered a delivery of stilts came into play - those darn packages with pictures!

I had to resurrect this thread after a conversation with DS6 and DS8 this morning.

DS6 tells stories of the several leprechauns who live in our house. He talks about them by name. They all have very different personalities. Recently, he announced that a couple of them got married and had babies. According to DS, leprechaun boys can marry at 14 and leprechaun girls can marry at 12. Who knew? A few of the leprechauns even shoveled most of the snow off our back patio when we were away last week. (Thanks, guys!) With Saint Patrick's Day coming up next week, my DSs (and the leprechauns) are very excited. We're making decorations and planning a lovely party. We're having a ball with it.

Apparently DS8 told his friends about this yesterday. One of his friends told him that his mother said leprechauns aren't real. An argument ensued. This schoolyear, several kids have told DS8 that Santa isn't real. He adamantly insists that one year he heard the hooves of the reindeer on our roof. He KNOWS they're real. DS8's argument: "You can't see germs and you can't see Santa, but they're both real!" I'm surprised with how young DS8's belief is in this regard. It's fun, although I hope my DC are not devastated when they ultimately figure it out.