This is going to probably seem completely weird since I have read that most gt kids start asking questions about Santa Claus really early (3, 4, 5) - those that celebrate modern christmas anyway.
DS8 is still a believer, so I am beginning to worry about next year for a couple of reasons. I think 4th grade is probably when almost everyone will no longer believe in Santa, but he might yet. Also, he is a really really honest kid and I don't want to turn up a big fat liar.
It's not like he hasn't asked about it, but I guess I've been a bit too firm and convincing in my explaining about the story of the real man we now call St. Nicolas and how the traditional ideas of Santa Claus have grown from that.
Anyone else wondering about what to do on this?
What do you say when kids finally really figure it out? Any severely disappointed kids? That is what I am trying to avoid.
Chris,
I was a gifted child, and I never quite stopped believing. Even after I was told it was my parents, it was so much fun to really think some amazing person came down and left presents that I didn't want to spoil it. As an adult, I still get all excited about Santa, even knowing that I buy the presents.
I'm not sure what I would say, but I do think that if he decides to continue to believe despite his friends saying that Santa's not real, it won't do him any long-term harm.
Lya
Hi Chris,
We have the opposite problem, DD6 has taken it upon herself to "enlighten" the other first graders about "the secret"!
Thank goodness for caller ID, I've been screening my calls!
I did struggle over this too. Especially because DD6 started asking last year and I remember how disillusioned I was when I got the facts about Santa as a child.
I know lots of gifted kids figure it out early, but I certainly don't think it's an acid test for GT status.
When my kids asked, I just asked them lots of questions, like, what do you think? Then I let them talk it out. If it seemed like the really wanted to believe, then I just told them I agreed with them.
When DD6 basically broke it down for me as if she was setting ME straight on the deal, I had to giggle a little bit.
I did tie my explanation to our family's spiritual beliefs and the ability to believe in things we can't prove.
I told her all parents give their children this little gift of belief each year when they are children. That way, when they grow up they can have an easier idea of believing in things that might not seem possible.
I little cheesy, I know, but it seemed to satisfy her.
I also suspect some older kids put on a good show when they know because they feel if the parents find out what they really think, they won't get as many gifts under the tree.
Somewhere over the last 2 years, GS9 made a gradual switch between believing, and playing along with the myth of a Santa Claus. Read this, and I think you'll know how to approach it.
Newsman Francis Pharcellus Church wrote The Sun's response to Virginia.
Eight-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon wrote a letter to the editor of New York's Sun, and the quick response was printed as an unsigned editorial Sept. 21, 1897. The work of veteran newsman Francis Pharcellus Church has since become history's most reprinted newspaper editorial, appearing in part or whole in dozens of languages in books, movies, and other editorials, and on posters and stamps.
"DEAR EDITOR: I am 8 years old.
"Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.
"Papa says, 'If you see it in THE SUN it's so.'
"Please tell me the truth; is there a Santa Claus?
"VIRGINIA O'HANLON.
"115 WEST NINETY-FIFTH STREET."
VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.
Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.
Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.
You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.
No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.
((wiping away a little tear)), Awwwwwww, thanks for posting that!
I'm going to read it to DD's when they get home.
Wow, thanks all! those are great responses, I feel much better.
My DS4 is planning on staying up all night this year to see Santa. I was more worried a couple years ago, when we first read Santa Mouse. There was a line in it like "and i believe in Santa too, don't you?" That was the first inkling that some people didn't believe in Santa, and DS wondered about that. And his first Easter bunny experience was someone in a really bad costume, so he started out not believing in the Easter bunny. But I think gradually we convinced him, and now he believes!
I remember when I read all that stuff about GT kids not believing in Santa when they were young, and I thought "oh, OK, I guess maybe DS isn't all that gifted."
I did tie my explanation to our family's spiritual beliefs and the ability to believe in things we can't prove.
I told her all parents give their children this little gift of belief each year when they are children. That way, when they grow up they can have an easier idea of believing in things that might not seem possible.
I little cheesy, I know, but it seemed to satisfy her.
I think that your explanation is great and if it is cheesy than I guess I like cheese.
We took a picture of Santa's leg and boot as he ascended up the chimney one year. DDs are still thinking about that photo!
My dd9 is in the "unsure phase, but reasons that there is no way "Mom and Dad have enough money to buy the cool stuff we get every year!) lol
We took a picture of Santa's leg and boot as he ascended up the chimney one year. DDs are still thinking about that photo!
My dd9 is in the "unsure phase, but reasons that there is no way "Mom and Dad have enough money to buy the cool stuff we get every year!) lol
I got the similar set of pictures when I was young. I was convinced of this "proof" for some time. Then once Christmas I sat on the front lawn and scanned the skies and never saw Santa.
great book and movie...... Polar Express
It talks about believing and about the spirit of christmas. Good starting point to have a real conversation.
DS7 is starting to question us in a serious way.
I taught 4th graders 2 years ago.... 4th grade boys, most still believe, and those kids were tough inner city kids.....
My ds6 has plans to catch Santa. He set a trap last year which didn't go off. This year he's planning to stay awake, despite our warnings that Santa only comes when you're asleep. The ultimate catch 22!
I think he's massively questioning, but doesn't want to admit it. He keeps asking technical questions about glowing noses and time zones. I told him about jelly fish that glow--bioluminescent noses on reindeer! :-D
OMG Mia I just had the same conversation about bioluminescent creatures! DH and I went to Vieques Puerto Rico
http://www.biobay.com/ just to swim with these critters, long before DS was born.
I'm fairly certain that DS knows there is no Santa but he loves the idea of the magic. He gave me that "look" last year when he asked how Santa gets out of our fully enclosed gas fireplace and DH told him there's a fingerprint sensor on the inside for Santa to open the glass. Probably a stretch on DH's part!
In our home we have a rule (DS16 & DS6) Thouse that belive in Santa get presents from Santa. I also sent him a letter along with the boys. Our 16 year old finally stopped when he went into 6th grade. No harm, and he still keeps the magic alive for his younger brother.
It seems to be working well.
On the Ruff scales, she use's disbelife in Santa, as a milestone. It's funny about how little it takes for us to go into GT deniel, Myself Included.
Maybe some parents are better at keeping the magic going, or maybe some childdren are more trusting?
Santa actually gave me coal in 2006, my DW thought it was funny.
That milestone nagged a bit at me too. Besides Santa, DW likes to have all kinds of interesting elves visit our house. And the faries in the woods. And ... I could go on. Also, DS is convinced that he's going to Hogwarts when he's 11.
However, we are starting to get more and more questions about "is <such-and-such> real?"
JB
Yes, I didn't know what to make of that milestone either. Ds is really trusting; owing to his really honest self he tends to attribute such pureness to others. Needless to say, he's a little hard to live with
He's also got a pretty great imagination so I reckon that helps keep the fun alive!
DS was 6 when he had to know because it didn't add up to his logical mind. He didn't ask me. He just sat down and thought hard. Then he said, "I think I got it. Santa is the mailman."
ACS- My DS made up a song last year that goes to the tune of O Christmas Tree. "Oh Christmas Truck, o Christmas truck, please bring me my presents! Whether your Brown or FedEx or even DHL, oh Christmas Truck oh Christmas truck, please bring me my presents!"
Yes, I suspect that asking skeptical questions about Santa counts at least as partial credit with Dr. Ruf. If not, then I think it should!
DS7 has been asking skeptical questions for maybe 3 years, but I have never given him a straight answer. I refuse to lie, so I, too, pull the "What do you think?" defense, or agree with him when he observes that something doesn't make sense: "Yes, DS, it doesn't seem possible for Santa to get all the way around the world to every house in just one night. Hmmm. What do you make of that?" He usually finds some creative way to explain it: "Maybe Santa is really a genius who has invented a time machine?" I have a hard time thinking that this sort of answer means he's not that smart... LOL!
I'm not yet willing to tell him the truth because he hasn't asked me outright "Is Santa fake?" But I prefer not to ruin that part of his innocence either. As long as he only asks questions, I'm playing along.
Really, belief in someone who gives you presents doesn't seem to me to be a very reliable way to determine that someone isn't GT. How is looking a gift horse in the mouth showing intelligence?
(Totally kidding!)
DS7 and DD4 are still very much believers.
They just got their annual letters from santa today, and the looks on their faces was wonderful. I made them here:
http://www.freelettersfromsantaclaus.com/free_printable_letters_from_santa.asp
From the start, DS did not believe at all in "the legend of Santa Claus" (how can he possibly get to all those houses on one night?) and asked me outright last year at age 7. I asked him if he wanted to believe and he said yes, and I said Santa is real to those who believe. Then, my DH but a boot print in the fireplace and my MIL wrote DS a letter from Santa. I'm a bit concerned that they went too far, and DS will be really mad when he learns what they did. He now believes wholeheartedly at age 8, and I'm feeling uncomfortable.
You could always lead him back by asking probing questions, Questions. There are ways to ease him back to reality, I think, so that if he wants to stop believing, it doesn't have to feel like such a betrayal...
I think many of these kids who question whether Santa exists, are 99% sure he does not exist, but they are playing along because they don't want to spoil the fun. If you find it fun to make-believe that Santa delivers presents, find a way to introduce reality to your kids in a way that they participate in being 'Santa'.
BTW, when I was very young, I asked questions. My mom told me quite early--and in no uncertain terms!--that there was no Santa, and that I should keep the secret from my little sister. I have a very clear memory of being deeply disappointed...and that my eye-level was still below the countertop! (I wasn't a short kid either!)
I don't blame my mom one bit for that, but I also don't want to be the one to give my kids the sad feeling that I had. Thus my "never lie, but never tell the truth either" bob-and-weave.
It may still screw them up, but at least it will screw them up in a different way than I'm screwed up. Progress!
I don't blame my mom one bit for that, but I also don't want to be the one to give my kids the sad feeling that I had. Thus my "never lie, but never tell the truth either" bob-and-weave.
I think there is plenty of room for creatively defining "Santa" as the Spirit of Christmas or the Joy of Giving without expecting anything in return. Defined this way, Santa, I hope, is alive and well in all our hearts. To say that Santa exists is not lie, but you have to be willing to think metaphorically!
If you find it fun to make-believe that Santa delivers presents, find a way to introduce reality to your kids in a way that they participate in being 'Santa'.
This is a great idea, but if you have strong willed child, be careful. A couple years ago, probably when DS was 11 or so, I enlisted him in helping me find and wrap presents for Santa to give. He helped me wrap them and label sock with the adults names on them so I could put them out on Christmas night after he was asleep. But he stayed awake and refused to go to sleep. At about 1 am when he was still wide awake, I allowed him to put the adults suprise stockings out. He loved it. Since then, I have made all the adults in the house pretend to go to bed early so he can hide the stockings. Then the adults get back up again after he is tucked safely in bed again.
That boy has a strong will!!!
DS6 is a born skeptic and I can't remember a time when he believed in Santa or the Tooth Fairy. He doesn't believe in the Bible stories he's learning in Sunday school either. But he agrees that he can still learn something from the stories even if he doesn't believe it...
I agree with your DS, Jool. I have talked with DS7 about the difference between "fact" and "truth." A fictional story can contain a lot of truth, and facts can obscure truth.
I figure this notion will be useful when he's really ready to let go of Santa and the Easter Bunny and other such myths.
I wish that more adults understood the difference between fact and truth, frankly! It could save humanity a lot of trouble!
Thought I'd share this story...
Friday night, GS9's 4th & 5th grade chorus performed at the local town's Christmas program. Part of the program was waiting for Santa to arrive, and lighting the town's lights so Santa could find the town. Right at the time the councilwoman was pretending to call Santa on the phone and 'relaying' a message saying Santa couldn't see them, lights from a small plane could easily be seen circling overhead. The kids went nuts, pointing and yelling. The plane was just a coincidence, but it was a well-timed one. On our way home I said to GS9, "I thought you didn't believe in S.C.?" He said, "I don't, but we saw little kids in the audience and we didn't want to spoil it for them."
It was pretty cute.
Aw! What a good kid!
My DD6 still believes, but she believes in that Santa Claus up in the North Poll. She knows that the Santas at the mall are just dressed up "Helpers."
She was pretty funny though about St. Nick (which we celebrate here in Wisconsin on Dec 6th). She kept pushing us as the parents to put up stockings as well. For the life of her she couldn't understand why wouldn't do it: "Mom! You get FREE stuff!"
Last week, DD4 said that Rudolph is a "character, like Dora, right?"
I hesitantly said, "What do you think?"
She said, "Yeah, he's a character, but what about Santa Claus? Is he a character, too?"
Again, I said, "What do you think?"
She replied, "Well, I don't think so. He brings me stuff, so he must be real."
I left it at that.
DS4 knocked off Santa a few months ago. Passing an adult conversation re the need to relocate to the south pole he paused to tell us "but I know Santa isn't really real, it's just people you know who give you presents." And then he and DS6 added the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny to their hit list. I was shocked at first - we have always put some effort into laying it on pretty thick.
But generally, to hear them talk you'd swear they believed - they love the idea and are happy to play along.
DS4 knocked off Santa a few months ago. Passing an adult conversation re the need to relocate to the south pole he paused to tell us "but I know Santa isn't really real, it's just people you know who give you presents." And then he and DS6 added the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny to their hit list. I was shocked at first - we have always put some effort into laying it on pretty thick.
But generally, to hear them talk you'd swear they believed - they love the idea and are happy to play along.
MrWiggly asked me just the other day if I thought Santa was real. I asked "What do you think?" and he said, "I don't know but most of my firends don't think so" and then he left the room....as if he didn't really want the answer!
I think that although the realization is sometimes startling and disenchanting for us as kids, it can also be empowering and the beginning of understanding that you, too, have the power to be Santa! I always played up the "Santa lives in all of us" thing for my kids.
She was pretty funny though about St. Nick (which we celebrate here in Wisconsin on Dec 6th). She kept pushing us as the parents to put up stockings as well. For the life of her she couldn't understand why wouldn't do it: "Mom! You get FREE stuff!"
We celebrate St. Nick's Day (I'm from that cheesy heaven, now a Flatlander) -- and parents hang stockings too.
DS4 was asking about St. Nicholas the other day. I said he was a good man who lived hundreds of years ago who wanted to share his wealth with the needy. He asked if St. Nick was still alive. I said, no, he died a long time ago. "So who puts the stuff in my shoe?" I got away with "the spirit of st. nick still lives." (DS believes in ghosts, so he thought that was a reasonable answer!)