DD is in 7th grade and and excellent student. However, she often has difficulty remembering to hand things in or fully complete assignments. She has established a pattern of lying to us or blaming teachers for these mysterious 0s that appear on her online grading account. Occasionally we have caught her in the lie (the missing paper is in her binder or folder) or gotten her to confess it by threatening to email the teacher to ask why she is giving a 0 since she supposedly turned in the work.

DD is definitely somewhat organizationally challenged, but we don't think she is ADHD. Her teachers report that she is on task and focused in class and contributes well. Always positive comments on the report card. Binders and folders are messy, but not horrifically so. I would say she is lower 25% as far as this skill. Not bottom of the barrel....but it's a weakness.

I also sort of suspect she may be self handicapping on purpose. Last year she recieived a few comments from kids about having an over 100% average in a couple of classes, and she has talked about how other kids don't get straight As, she wants to be "normal," other people think it's "great" to get Bs (when any Bs are purely the result of 0s pulling down her grade--all graded work is high As), etc. However, I also think she just has a hard time remembering to jump all the hoops. 0s often occur when something was a bit unusual--you had to turn this project in online instead of on paper, she missed that day of class and had to remember to hand it in the next day, etc. She can stay with it fine if it's within routine, but take it outside routine and she'll forget. Similarly, some teachers have an organized and familiar homework system and others are more scattered and sporadic--she does great with the former, not so well with the latter.

I want to work with her on skills and techniques to get more organized, but if I bring this up she screams at me to get out of her life, stop treating her like a baby, let her handle it, etc. With 7 current missing assignments in various classes, I also broached the topic of a conference (her teachers like to do group conferences) which was met with "If you do that, I will drop out of school" (DD is nothing if not prone to high drama), because she says it will be embarrassing.

We have already removed privileges due to multiple missing assigments and repeated failures to turn stuff in, but DD has never really cared about this and I don't think it's a good strategy. Unfortunately, middle school grades are relevant here, as she must apply to high school....otherwise I do think I'd be tempted to leave her be and let her experience the consequences as they fell. In my gut, I feel this is just something we need to work on with her with better systems, but she is fighting us tooth and nail. Thoughts, experiences? I'm also so frustrated with the lying. I have no idea when to trust her at this point. It doesn't help that sometimes teachers really do mess up, lose things, etc so sometimes weird or bad grades are not her fault. But she will straight up lie to our faces and do it beautifully, too. I can NOT tell when she's lying.

The relationship is really suffering at this point. DD has also accused me of wanting her to be perfect, which is ironic since we've been going through a whole "thing" about her being worried about her scienc fair project with her freaking out about it not being good enough (she won a bunch of stuff last year) and me telling her it's fine. I don't want her to be perfect!! I just want her to complete her assignments and hand them in. I feel like that is completely reasonable, but it's almost like she's telling me that she needs to have 0s to be "normal." I wonder if she can't bring herself to do a poor job on an actual assignment, so this is the only way she knows how to do it? But that may be a crazy way to think?

I don't have direct experience of your situation, just a suggestion where to look for advice. Your DD may not be classic ADHD, but it sounds like she has real challenges with executive function, which is where so many ADHD folk suffer. From all that I have read, lying and ADHD very commonly go hand in hand as kids build up defences against their failures. It seems to be the go-to coping strategy. Lying around un-submitted homework usually tops the list. Most suggestions I've seen are around making clear the lying is unacceptable and has consequences, but focusing mostly on support and remediation of the deficits, as opposed to punishment.

So a google of "ADHD and lying" might be helpful. I went to http://www.additudemag.com , my common starting spot, plugged "lying" into the search, and got 10 pages of links. Not necessarily deep info, but a good orientation before you dig in.

Hugs to you. I know this kind of behaviour is a huge, huge challenge for parents. Mine are more about always shifting the blame for any problem situation to others (a more indirect kind of lying), but it generates that same sense of failure as parents. Lying pushes all our buttons and is really, really hard to deal with calmly. DS and I have probably had the same fight 50 times since he was 2, and I'm still struggling to find a way to deal with the blame-shifting more constructively. I think we're starting to make a little progress - but this is clearly why I am pointing you to websites and not anything I've done.

Ultramarine, we were where you are. It started in middle school with DS. At the time we attributed it to adolescent boy-ness, and we tried several methods to help him get his work in: signing off on homework by parent and teacher, SOAR, etc. It was impossible to get him to use his assignment notebook; thank goodness for school's online homework sites. But even when he did homework, and brought it to school, he might tell the teacher it was in his locker. If sent out to the hall to get it, he might not come back. He'd idly fiddle in the locker, or go to the restroom, until class was over.

It seems that several things were going on:
He was afraid his work wouldn't be good enough.

When he really did forget to do it or bring it, or he brought it late, or he wasn't sure about how well he did, he was afraid of what the teachers would think of him.

This advanced into being afraid to be "judged" at all, and by junior year of high school he had quit piano lessons (because there was an expectation though not a requirement that the students be in a recital), wouldn't give presentations, wouldn't turn in homework at all, wouldn't write at all, won't join the Math team (what if he gets something wrong, especially if it's just algebra when he's in Multivariable), quit the plays because you have to audition...the directors have told him if he wants to be in it, they have a spot and he wouldn't have to audition, but that brings us to another problem:
He won't take special opportunities; it's unfair to everyone else

We can trace a lot of this back to a couple of middle school teachers who told him, "you're a smart kid, this should not be a problem for you." Probably some students said such things to him, too; I remember children being surprised when he didn't get 100% and another who was so excited the day she exceeded his score on the MAP to become the high scorer. He is not competitive at all, and "doesn't get" why others might be.

We can also trace it to his intrerpretation and observance of the school motto that included the words Responsible and Respectful: being late or incomplete with something is irresponsible (he didn't want to face the consequences do he didn't turn it in at all); and asking for clarification is disrespectful because it means you are telling the teacher they didn't do their job well if you didn't understand an instruction.

On this forum I learned the phrase "socially-prescribed perfectionism", and it seems to fit the bill. It's not that HE thinks it has to be perfect, it's that he thinks OTHERS do, and what will they think of him if he can't meet THEIR expectations.

The anxiety that goes along with it finally got to be pretty serious. We started escalating interventions through the years, and in this his senior year we seem to be making progress. He is taking medication for the anxiety (as his social worker at school says, "he's more DS now"), he has an IEP that, among other things, has him in a supportive study hall where the teacher works with me to keep him up with the assignment notebook (that took a while to get going) and we are learning to recreate communication habits. He had 4 assignments outstanding one class, and actually got them all in, without getting upset or withdrawing. On two of them he couldn't figure out an answer, so he hadn't turned them in at all. And I was able to talk with him about them without getting frustrated. And he was finally able to ask the teacher and a friend about the questions he couldn't answer.

I don't know if this is what is going on with your DD, but if you can get the teachers on your side, and maybe get them to send her to a homework check-in person, like home room teacher, counselor, etc. Sometimes it's easier to let her think you are out of it. My son always told me to stay out of it; sometimes I let him think I was, when I had actually worked with a teacher to get something in place. It has to be consistent, though, and continue from one semester to the next. We did try to use a homemade SOAR, but at the time I was very distracted with other issues and could not give him the oversight he needed on it, but I think it could be a great system.
https://studyskills.com/parents/

A few things to consider:

Is this her first year in middle school and having multiple teachers? If so, adjusting to the increased organizational challenges of handling multiple classes and teachers with different homework/etc approaches can be tough at this point for most students. We've found through middle and high school that our kids typically have a mix of teacher styles re organization: some teachers purposely structure how they assign work and how they expect it to be turned in in a way that helps students meet the demands surrounding organization, teachers that seem to assign things fairly randomly and don't see that they have any need to help students learn/practice being organized... plus usually one teacher per semester who's just naturally completely disorganized themselves. Some subjects naturally lend themselves to easier homework organization too - math, for instance, where typically a class studies from one book all year and completes assignments from the book sequentially and students expect to have homework each night.

So the first step I'd suggest here is to look analytically at which classes your dd is having difficulty with getting assignments turned in, then talk to her about what's required: how are assignments given out, how are they turned in, how often does she have homework in that class etc. Also look at how she keeps track of her homework assignments - is she writing them down somewhere? In individual class notebooks or in a planner or other? If she's feeling sensitive about the classes where she's missing assignments, you can instead look at her full day together - how does each teacher assign homework etc... make it less of a "how to solve the problem of missing assignments" and more of a "how to manage planning" exercise.

I've found that giving my kids a lot of organizational support at home during middle school and the first year of high school really helps them learn how to be organized in their own way. The level of help required really depends on the individual student - one of my kids has a disability that impacts executive function, and we worked on org skills together all the way through middle school and quite a bit freshman year of high school. He's functioning fairly well now as a junior in high school, but we still check in daily and he still occasionally needs someone to help him with strategies for planning long term assignments etc.

Re what I actually did/do with my kids: I ask them to tell me about what they did in school each day when I first see them after school. I want to hear what they did in each class as well as what homework assignments they have. None of my kids really wanted to do this when we first started, but I explain to them - it's not because I'm trying to look over their shoulder and micromanage them, it's because they're my kids and I am naturally interested in what's going on in their day when they're not with me. We repeat this "tell me about your day" exercise everyday, and it has benefits beyond helping me support them through organizational challenges, it's helped them realize that I expect to continue communicating with them through whatever goes on during the teen years

Since it sounds like your dd is at odds with you over this, is there another adult in her life who could talk to her about it? Someone she's less emotional and dramatic with?

Last thing I wanted to mention - ADHD isn't the only thing that can cause executive function and organizational challenges. You've mentioned in your other posts that your dd appears to be making a lot of sign errors and mistakes in the "easy" parts of math calculations but grasps math concepts easily. I doubt this is what's happening, but I'd keep it in the back of my mind and pay attention as you work with her on the math and the organization challenges - these could be related to each other and possibly an undiagnosed LD that's mild enough she's been able to cope up to this point. Again, I doubt that's what's up - but it's something to be aware of.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - there's a book put together for ADHD that helped us a lot in middle school with organizational challenges for my ds (who doesn't have ADHD, but had tremendous org challenges).. I can't remember the name at the moment (ha! I must have my own challenges lol!).. but it was something like "Lost and Scattered"... anyone else who can help with the name? It's a short book with lots of great tips.

pps - one last tip from me If she's doing well with organization in classes where the teacher and homework are well structured, be sure to encourage and celebrate that - those classes were (I believe) really important for my ds in helping him learn how to develop his own organizational system and they helped him see he could be successful at managing homework.

Following the thread. No suggestions yet. In the same boat for DS 12, a near disaster for the first month in middle school. Just ordered the 'Soar" book.

Bright but scattered?

Smart but Scattered, Peg Dawson:

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-but-Scattered-Revolutionary-Executive/dp/1593854455

Also

Lost, Late, and Unprepared, Joyce Cooper-Kahn:

https://www.amazon.com/Late-Lost-Unprepared-Executive-Functioning/dp/1890627844/

Is this the same child in both posts?

That's it!

This is my DD. I have at times wondered how abnormal she really is because I never heard anyone else talk about how their kid lies about schoolwork. For her, it started in about 4th grade but she was in a highly gifted program and they were treating the kids like middle schoolers. I think the executive functioning demands were just too much for her and she decided it was better to not try and fail than to try and fail. She is now in an actual middle school and has an IEP. She goes to a "strategies" class rather than foreign lang. and the teacher makes sure she is writing down her assignments from the various classes in her planner, checking online for late assignments, finishing the late assignments, breaking down large projects, etc. Not sure if everyone in this group has an IEP or not, or if some of them are like your DD where there is no particular disability (mine does actually have ADHD). Maybe something to check out. This has reduced the stress and the drama significantly and DD is getting A's in all of her classes. Her attitude is also improving a lot. I also have a book "organizing the disorganized child" which has some interesting tips.

Good luck! I sympathize because it's extremely frustrating to deal with.

It looks like people are addressing the executive function piece, but not the lying. As it appears that it's a coping strategy of not being able to handle the organizational demands, of course addressing the root of the problem makes sense.

We've addressed these twin issues of weak executive function and lying about it afterwards by giving our kids a formula for messing up with the logic that lying (or neglecting to mention) is not helping the situation long term, but instead a function of the short-term anxiety and sense of failure. So in our house, we've structured how to make a mistake. We've found that it helps address the anxiety around the problem so that they can actually learn. It's the 4 F's. Mess up, Fess up, Fix it, and Forget it/Move on.

Mess up, e.g. forget to hand in homework
Fess up (and apologize): admit to your mistake and be able to name it. "Mrs Teacher, I'm sorry I forgot to hand in my homework. I hope you will accept it now."
Fix it: "I'm going to try carrying a homework folder with me to every class from here on," or, "Can you help me remember to get the homework out of my folder until it's a habit?"
Forget it or move on. It's in the past. You've got your fixes in place now, no need to dwell on it.

We definitely have scaffolded our DD as 6th grade was the last grade in which late assignments were accepted without incurring large penalties.

Also, knowing that I had EF issues as a schoolboy (and to some extent still do) I have watched this like a hawk because, like every parent, you don't want to see your offspring stepping into the same messes that you did.

We have bought one of those plastic coated (erasable) monthly planner/calendars from an office supply store and a set of coloured erasable markers - one colour per subject. Every time DD returns from school she writes the assignments given that day into the rectangle assigned for the due date.

This serves three purposes a) she keeps track b) we can keep track of her being on track c) writing it down as soon as she comes home, i. e. before she has started the actual work is generally the lowest anxiety (about it) time.

Every month, usually during the 3rd/4th week, we start to erase the earlier weeks to allow the newer assignments to be entered perpetually.

So far, this has worked very well; she keeps track, we can (and sometimes have to) keep her on track and she gets to see how long (in advance) she actually has to get things done. The last night before something major is due panics are way less frequent now :-)

The longer term goal is for DD to acquire a system that she can use independently.

Is it perfect? No. But it has helped a lot!

YMMV

No advice, but you are not alone. Following this thread. YS DD11 is definitely "smart, but scattered," with no ADHD diagnosis, but with what would appear to be some EF challenges. It is difficult to sort out what is lack of engagement, boredom, actual EF challenges, laziness, or something else.

When we try to ask her about assignments that are missing, we usually do not get a straight answer. It is VERY frustrating.

Right now, we check in with her often and remind her of what may be due. She hates this, as she is VERY independent. BUT, she has not yet demonstrated the ability to stay on top of it all on her own. So we will probably continue to encounter eye rolls for the foreseeable future...

At this age, some may say, "one more eye roll and you are on your own for a week!"
And then stick to your word.

Sink-or-swim.

A child can either learn to appreciate support, and/or learn the consequences of any lapse in organizational skills and turning in work on time.

Parents deserve respect.

Thanks to everyone who posted about this. Rest assured I have read your answers. The issue is so fraught and emotional right now that I don't know if I can even post about it. I feel like we are destroying our relationship with DD over this and I am about ready to let her tank whatever because I can't handle the tenor of our household and the damage it is doing to my sanity, my other child, and even my dog. She would be an incredible prosecuting attorney (I know you know the type), and the onslaught of her verbal rage amd mendacity on this issue is overwhelming to me. Of course, I don't think it would be particularly good parenting to let her twist in the wind, because 1) she must apply to high schools, as previously stated, and with her grades headed as they are, she would lose her shot at the prestigious one; 2) her EF skills are poor enough that I feel it is a cop-out. But since I literally cannot speak to her about this issue without her losing her mind with scorn and fury, even if I do so entirely neutrally, and since no loss of privilege appears to matter (she has lost them all at this point), I am at my wits' end. We have already been to counseling and were discharged due to her "progress." She had the counselor snowed. I feel concerned at times that she is gaslighting many adults in her life. She can seem incredibly mature and responsible and turn on a dime.

When we put my daughter into 1-1 therapy, she turned on the charm, was very articulate, and had the counselor snowed as well. We ended up looking crazy when we described the various drama that she instigated at home.

On one hand, home is the soft place for these kids to land.

On the other hand, their de-compressing and acting out can become manipulative and abusive.

It sounds like some of this behavior is beginning to cross the line.

I have one word of advice to consider: nanny-cam

Homework issue first: IMO the problem with asynchronous development in executive function is that many of the "natural consequences" approaches have a disproportionate impact. DC won't complete SAT registration? If one lets them suffer the "natural consequences" DC may miss all the financial aid and application deadlines and not be able to go to college. Even if one explains this to DC, DC may just not be fully able to realize the true impact of their actions. Additionally, DC may be getting bad advice from others or observing students with different life goals and not believe that the dire consequences you describe will actually occur. Ugh. It has been my experience that this actually got worse with age as the stakes got higher and the resistance to parental advice became greater. What worked for us? We found that having DC develop a plan for which college (substitute high school in OP's case) and look up herself what the requirements for entrance to each school were made clear what classes, grades, and tests DC needed. This helped a lot to keep DC at least on the main road to DC's goal. Other parent's we know used a tutor and if their DC did not want to have a tutor made it grade dependent; i.e. if you don't want to spend 2 hours a week with a biology tutor your grade must be X and your assignments must have less than Y number missing. Some parents use a homework coach (see an article on these here: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/nyregion/08homework.html?_r=0 )

Finding a way to both enforce parental rules and de-escalate situations is tough. Really tough.

Lying second: I'd urge you to make really, really sure that there is not anything "weird" going on with your DD. I found long car rides out of the city best for these kinds of conversations. Preferably with DC's phone (sadly) accidentally put in the trunk, "can't stop on the freeway". By "weird", I mean the big bads: bullying, drugs, sexual abuse, and the like. Time to check the phone, facebook, email, and other accounts. If nothing "weird" is going on, then reading some of the books that others have suggested on this site may help (discussed here: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....4858/Dealing_with_manipulative_beha.html )

It is my understanding that we are talking about much younger children... middle schoolers.

It is possible that experiencing "natural consequences" as middle schoolers, the children may have a better concept of consequences as high schoolers, when they are facing higher stakes.

Huge hugs, ultramarina. You have gotten through much, and you will help your DD through this, you really will. Deep breath. (Deep wine glass.)

Grasping at straws thought: is there by any chance a teacher, friend or relative whose opinion of her particularly matters to her, who may be able to talk to her about what's going on? Someone who's out of the daily fray can often get traction where we're just in too deep.

Natural consequences can be a tough concept when you can't separate the "can't" from the "won't". You don't want to accept unacceptable behaviour, and you do want your child to build up self-responsibility - - - BUT you don't want to punish for disability. And so often, the underlying driver for obnoxious behaviour is fear. What is she afraid of?

Digging out and supporting the underlying problem while uncompromisingly addressing the bad coping behaviour is a brutally-tricky tightrope walk. With flaming alligators underneath (uh.... think I've been reading too much Rick Riordan with the kids, sorry). The Manipulative Child is the book that keeps coming up here; I remember HK and others as huge fans. Maybe it could help untangle some of this?

Second the wine glass, in the evening, preferably with your spouse I front of a good TV drama. Escapism.

If this were my kid, which I expect it may be in a few years time because they are so very alike, I'd say his anxiety is through the roof. I'd see a psychiatrist to try and get a diagnosis that will get her out from getting 0s for not handing in stuff - generalized anxiety disorder, ADHD, anything. And then I'd consider medication. Not Ritalin, but rather Prozac or Zoloft. I'd think she is old enough to need it.

Zoloft is what we went with, and the change has been dramatic. Of course, there were the assignments he legitimately forgot, was too nervous to turn in, the one he lied about having turned in, and now the worksheet he didn't realize had to be turned in even though he complete 90% of it. The big difference is that now we can deal with it together.

I mentioned we tried SOAR system over the weekend. Best thing ever for the past three years in keeping him organized! As simple as it sounds, putting everything in one binder, it worked the magic. NO single assignments missed this week, which is hard to believe. DS is very proud of this.

I would suggest to give it a try, no need to buy the book, which is nice but pricy. All you need is a 1-1.5 inch binder with plastic pockets for each of the classes. Make sure no loose paper in the book bag, everything going into the binder. DS told me he used to spend long time searching in every binder looking for the math paper while the teacher has already gone to a different topic. He had to give up which resulted in a missing homework. With Soar binder, his work for every class is right there and he does not need to spend any time looking!

I just regret that we didn't think of this earlier.

Agree with several PPs:
--I'd see EF difficulties and very serious anxiety/perfectionism as likely root causes
--I might consider medicating for the anxiety (if she will agree to that); it's clearly causing real suffering. I would use a psychiatrist or developmental pediatrician to select a medication rather than a primary care doc.

When our DS lied about assignments, it was because the fear of being in trouble was worse than the fear of the zero. We needed to ramp the anxiety way down, then deal with the EF failures. (The EF failures were a combination of perfectionism and true disorganization. Some support at school and some maturity and some ADHD meds helped greatly.)

She worked with the counselor on anxiety issues (unrelated to any of this) and seemed to make significant progress. That was actually the one area where we saw results. According to the counselor, anxiety was not nearly severe enough to call for meds. However, school was much more under control last year.

There appear to be some social issues operating here. DD is on the borderlines between a more popular crowd and a nerdier crowd. I know where I want her, but she doesn't know, of course.

I find it hard to understand WHY DD is doing this and if it is condition-related or a more intentional choice. She seems unable to understand this herself. She offers some reasons from each column.

I am now going through her binders with her every weekend. They look disorganized, but not terrible. There are usually 3 or 4 loose papers in the bottom of her pack, but not essential ones. I will find things misfiled (wrong binder) or somewhat misfiled (wrong section of binder), but LOSING work doesn't seem to be her issue. Her issue is failing to turn in. The work IS typically completed UNLESS it was assigned in a method that is not typical. If a teacher specifically asks for work, it will always be turned in. If she needs to remember it on her own, good luck with that. If there is a routine (HW every night, HW every Wed and Fri), that will work. If random and not often, uh oh. If HW is usually online but oh, today it was a worksheet? She is going to forget that because she will only check online. That's the way it is. And in one class, I swear the teacher has ADHD and it is SO VERY hard for her to manage due to the scattershot way things work. In contrast, another teacher dictates exactly how the binder should be organized in an intuitive way, tells them where everything should be filed, assigns HW the same day of the week always, etc. She has over a 100% in that class (that teacher has been teaching 20+years).

My kids also have a problem with not turning homework in. A good friend is mystified and says to them, "But surely, DOING it is the hard part --- not, you know, handing it in when they ask for it." It has to be a developmental thing.

I'm pretty sure that the lead teacher at their junior high told me that most of the kids there struggle with this problem. The school's philosophy is to scaffold as much as possible at that age, and to ramp down as they go through high school.



I think this is the way it should be. It's not reasonable to expect 11- and 12-year-old kids to have a high level of executive function, and IMO, the school should be helping to develop it by ensuring that stuff is filed properly and that homework assignments get written down (e.g. "Okay, I wrote the assignment on the board, get your organizer out and copy it in."). In this way, behavior can start to drive attitude.

My kids also lie about the assignments because "it's easier to lie than get in trouble/do the homework." So there is that. They've started to learn that they're going to get into trouble for lying and (hopefully) are starting to consider the possibility that it actually is easier to just do the work. That said, their school doesn't hand out a lot of busy work. I can understand reluctance to waste time on busy work. I can also understand that it kind of has to be done anyway. Busy work (don't know if your daughter gets it) isn't an easy situation.

I don't feel that the school is assigning a lot of unnecessary work, thankfully. It's much better than her elementary school. And I also know that other kids and families struggle with this issue. What I don't know is if they struggle to the same extent (maybe?) and/or how much of her problem is intentional rebellion/not caring/ a choice vs failing to handle it for other reasons not of her choice. She also seems significantly spacier this year than last. Hormones? She is a late bloomer physically--that is just happening now.

Well, there's certainly nothing that prevents the behavior from being a 50/50 split between condition-related and intentional choice.

I'm really struggling this week with similar questions. Although with DS 12 our confrontation point isn't lying about the work, I am dealing with flat out refusal to do it, and an unbelievable amount of negative attitude and refusal to take responsibility for figuring out how to deal with the problem.

For what it's worth, on pretty much every resource I've ever looked at about ADHD or executive function, doing the work but not handing it in tops the list. Coupled with lying about it to cover up the failure. These are pure, archetypical behaviours of people with executive function deficits.

But - - - but - - - there's so much behaviour that feels so much like choosing, like it's intentional. What do you DO with that? I too find this really, really hard. When the kid says "I can't do this" and yells and freaks out and cries at every possible question about what, exactly, is making it so hard; at every offer to brainstorm ideas; at every suggestion of a possible different approach. Who every time I try to speak is yelling "No! I am NOT being negative and I'm NOT shouting down every suggestion you make without listening to it, I have NOT made up my mind that this is impossible and I am NOT refusing to consider alternate approaches". Oddly, when I asked if he saw the irony, it didn't help. :P

This 3-piece assignment was given ages ago, and there has been some class time to do it. I have been lightly checking in, but on his teacher's clear request, not getting directly involved. A week ago, however, I started asking some pointed questions. It's pretty clear his plan was going to involve simply not doing it, and hope, somehow, that it would magically go away.

His plan did not involve in any way discussing the work with the teacher, despite our many, many discussions that he can always get help, even discuss the possibility of modifying tasks or deadlines if need be, AS LONG AS HE ASKS WELL BEFORE THE DUE DATE. But you can't, can't, CAN'T wait until something should have already been handed in, and THEN say "I'm having a problem".

But somehow this is my fault because he didn't go to the teacher anytime in the last several weeks because he wasn't having a problem until I tried to make him finish the work this weekend. And the assignment he didn't ever even start because it was impossible (as opposed to the others which were just hard)? It was too impossible to ever start in all the time he had, but somehow he didn't know until this weekend that he *couldn't* do it, even though he didn't try to start it at any point in the last month because it was too hard, so he never discussed it with the teacher because it wasn't a problem until I got involved and somehow this is all my fault.

(Did I mention that we had a four-day weekend up here in the Great White North, so all this is going on at my mother-in-law's? Oh so much fun).

I am trying to come at this from a nice , calm, OK, you need to do this. How do you think you can get there? What's another way? How can I help you?

I know that if he sees this work as "impossible", that's not choice. That's his deficits speaking (I suspect a big dose of expressive language in with the ADHD). And I know kids with ADHD avoid and lie. That, too, is not "choice" in the way we usually think of it. But taking responsibility for his work, his actions? Recognizing what's hard for him and owning it, so that I and others can help him find other ways? Where in all this mess does choice come in? How do we hold him accountable for his work and the unacceptable behaviours, while recognizing the disabilities that are driving the behaviour? I am trying to separate the two and help him understand the difference. He's not accountable for his LDs, but he is accountable for how he chooses to deal with them. I'm failing miserably, and we're both pretty miserable.

But his life strategy for *everything* emotionally or cognitively difficult is avoidance. This is a deep, fundamental piece of him I am struggling with.

Yeah, no suggestions today. Just a whole lot of empathy and lots more questions.

Oh man, this sounds horribly familiar!!


Also this. In general, she wants me out of her life, except when things are somehow all my fault.

*sigh*

I bought the Smart but Scattered Teens book. I think it's going to be very helpful. We also had a big "come to Jesus" style talk about her current life goals (music/writing/art/creativity above all) and the fact that yes, she still needs to complete school and go to college to achieve them. Apparently, she had quietly decided that les artistes need not "do" school.

Mine used to do the math and get 100% on all the stuff that he could. Then when thrown an assignment that upset his Aspergers logic would just skip it because mathematically, his grade would be okay maybe a letter grade down.

I told him turning in anything would be better than skipping it. A zero brings your average way down, but a 50, 60 or 70 is much easier to keep an A. This was a skill he needed to develop. To turn in something "good enough". Even if he had to modify it a bit to his liking. Assignments he couldn't handle were like write an essay about why your middle school is THE best. Well he had evidence that his school wasn't "the best" and couldn't get past that. I said write an essay about three things you like about your school that makes it "tolerable", then go back and write the topic sentence to match (or come close) to the prompt. OMG you would think I suggested a crime against humanity. But he is now a junior in high school and he has got the hang of it. He really needed middle school to learn this and the arguing and carrying on was a phase he had to go through.

Good advice from you. I'll add that whoever dreamed up that assignment should get a big green barf-out! badge.

I suspect that most of us who grew up in the US had to write at least one of those bogus essays. Mine was a mandatory contest called What America means to me! I was only 12. Mrs. W. read the contest rules while Mr. S. marched around the auditorium carrying a big sign with the essay topic printed on it (along with lots of stars and stripes). The other teachers all looked very sincere --- kind of like Linus did when he was talking about the Great Pumpkin.

I had no clue what to write. The day before it was due, I cobbled up a draft describing an ancestor who had immigrated here. It included some drivel about how excited she was when she got off the ship, because she knew she had arrived in the promised land. My mom read it and said, "Actually, she wanted to get back on the boat and go home straight away. The pier stank and she didn't know anyone, not to mention barely speaking a word of English. Plus, she didn't have the slightest idea how she was going to travel a thousand miles to her sister's house in some exotic place she couldn't pronounce called Ohio. She was a teenager and she was terrified."

Sigh. So much for that idea. I sure didn't win that contest. So your son has my sympathies on that one, as does any other kid who has to write 500 words on why [insert theme] is SO INCREDIBLE!!!!!

Those essays certainly aren't where truth or free speech should be exercised, as always found that out the hard way.

I had to write that exact same essay at 13!! What being an American means to me, or something. I was a smartass and wrote that I was too young, sheltered, and inexperienced to know. I got an A, because I had a good teacher that year.

Val this is going to be even more upsetting. This state had at the time a yearly writing assessment given by the state. So this school district decided if one writing assessment was good, multiple assessments all year round was better. This was one of the district prompts. He had 45 minutes to write it and 15 minutes to pre write. And the teachers used it as a test grade. And the he handed in a blank page at the end of the hour. Not because he couldn't write competently. He could write things that would get an A in a college class at that age. I constantly got emails that basically said "um, your son, wow!" This was a major grade and he got a zero.

At that point he did not have a 504 for accommodations. But we did work on it at home just working through the problem of being stuck, what can you do to reframe the prompt. Conferenced with the teacher. And after a week of histerics I think he wrote something in school finally. I told him even arguing the opposite is better than turning in nothing--My school isn't the best and listing all the facts would be better than nothing. He didn't get credit but he had to work through this. I think the teacher dropped everyone's lowest grade and that assessment was his.

This assessment was used in the discussion when we got him 504 eligible and wrote a plan for him.

When they make up prompts they have to pick topics that everyone can relate to. The topic is fairly benign. The wording of the prompt is only problematic to those with atypical thinking (my son is ASD). I mean historically people chant "we're number one" at pep rallies without giving it a second thought. People just aren't so picky. My son has always gotten snagged on particulars though ...favorite is another problem word, the best, etc.

I don't have this challenge, but I wanted to reassure Ultramarina (and others in the same boat).

I had my explosive/defiant/angry at my mother stage in middle school too - and largely about the same stuff (disorganization, or inexplicable lasps in academic tasks that would tank my otherwise good grades). I would scream and shout and say terrible things when my mother tried to discuss it with me.

As an adult, I can see how clearly my parents were trying to be neutral, helpful, authentically concerned (and rightly so). My mother bore the brunt of my emotions at the time and I recall us both reduced to tears multiple occasions. One strategy she tried to use was writing me letters that her concerns - which I would read on my own time, when emotions weren't so at the surface. Of course, I also remember sighing, rolling my eyes and feeling guilt tripped by the letters at the time, even though I've re-read some as an adult and they were perfectly loving and supportive.

I was sent to a counselor (fairly unproductive). Probably the most effective thing my mother did was ask my older sister (13 years my senior) to talk with me about my behavior (yelling at mom). I could hear it much more effectively from her than I could my mother, and for the first time, I felt a sense of empathy for my mom's position.

Ultimately, the pattern changed when I got to high school. We still had typical parenting issues and discussions about organization and grades... but the fury, angry yelling and relationship strain ended after MS. Hard to say what changed other than maturity, but rest assured, if your relationship feels tense now, it doesn't mean it will stay that way. By the time I got to HS, my mother had become a confidant again, and as adults, we're very close.

Maybe consider writing down your thoughts for her to read on her own time, so she can step into your shoes. I echo the advice about having someone she trusts try and talk with her too. The reality is, she probably feels safest with you and that's why you get the worst of it. But it won't be that way forever!

Boy, I feel like a lot of cynical teens would dislike that assignment. Mine likes her school fine, but she'd roll her eyes at it for sure. She wouldn't not do it, so maybe that's the difference, but she would be annoyed and her heart wouldn't be in it.

All those cynical teens had better get over it, so they can write their college application essay. Even the most objective prompt on the Common App this year, the only one DS feels he can write, has a personal reflection aspect that's putting him off. We are talking about how to write it so that the personal reflection isn't there but won't be missed, how to write it without using the word "I". Or, he can apply to Rose-Hulman, which doesn't require an essay

Yes, unfortunately, some may say the schools are requiring the children to craft propaganda. Other examples of this are graded assignments which require children to identify words which are "new" vocabulary for them in assigned reading (when the child knows all the words and none are new), and/or to identify something new they've learned in school that day (when they've learned nothing new). This is early exposure to coercion, intimidation, and the unethical behavior of creating false documentation.

Beatnik, welcome!

This is such a beautiful and encouraging post.

Well, I regret to say I fully agree, spot on with your observation! In my case it was also censoring views/idea which I felt were essential to convey the message of the paper, of course taken as trying to be provocative.

Beatnik, I missed your post earlier. Thanks--I hope that happens with us! DD is certainly acting like a textbook teenager. Actually she also reminds me of her three-year-old self quite a lot these days!!