I haven't been around in quite some time since my kids have been getting older and doing well. But we've run into a problem and I'm hoping someone here might be able to help figure out what's going on.

DD14 (IQ 149) is in 10th grade and advanced a year into Pre-calc. She early entranced K (early September bday) and then skipped a grade in early elementary. Math was always her best subject and finally she was further advanced one grade in Math. She has always done awesome in Math, loved math, and never was really challenged in Math through Geometry (so, for two years after the math grade advancement). A straight-A student.

Last year she had a tough year with a new chronic medical condition and medication issues that we didn't discover until spring (drowsiness in class) and a friend issue to boot, although she was generally happy. She was in Algebra 2 and all of a sudden got a C in math both semesters. Now we've got her medical condition and medication under control and she is in Pre-calc and is again having trouble. She seems to understand setting up the problems and gets the concepts but is somehow messing up too many calculations toward the end of problems. It's her test grades that are terrible.

Any idea what could make her go suddenly from an A math student who doesn't have to put in much effort to a C math student? BTW: she's still having a relatively easy time getting As in all her other classes and she's happy socially. Any thoughts? TIA!

I don't know, but I'll be watching this space carefully-- any chance that she also has perfectionism issues in play? That has led my DD to have wicked underperformance on exams-- and while most of the time it isn't terribly noticeable, it's enough to drop her a full grade in STEM coursework at the college level, and it shaves off a few percentiles here and there in other assessment, too (So national merit commendation, not semi-finalist, that kind of thing). She does MUCH better on essay exams where she gets deep into the test and isn't watching the clock or doing a lot of shallow attention 'task-switching,' where she feeds her anxiety.

My DD had a somewhat similar pattern with math-- it really wasn't until calculus that things didn't look so rosy. Honestly, one problem was that she simply wasn't accustomed to NEEDING to work practice problems, and so she secretly feared that there was something wrong with her for needing to do her homework.

I also think that there has been more of a tendency to focus on THE right answer, as opposed to (in years, er-- maybe decades past) an emphasis on a correct APPROACH, which, if arithmetic were correct, would lead to a numerically correct answer. I mean, sure-- some point deductions for sign errors and bonehead mistakes were taken, but it wasn't so all-or-nothing. It's more labor intensive to grade that way, I suppose. It's why homework is no longer graded, either, in most instances.

I'm sure that you've thought about a stealth LD already. Just the same, I'd look at the anxiety piece of things first.

I'm going to speculate a little, in a moment, but first our own anecdote:

Our #1 has been having a similar situation. Also net grade advanced two years, and an additional year in math. Also seemed to bump up against something at precalculus. We homeschool, so rather than grades dropping, the pace of math progress just slowed to a crawl suddenly. A similar phenomenon with conceptual understanding, but many minor (careless) computational errors. None of the medical or friend issues you have in your situation, and nothing special happening elsewhere in life, that appears to be having deleterious effects. Our DC does have some ADHD/executive dysfunction-esque characteristics, but is neither diagnosed nor treated.

Here are some of my thoughts: I wonder if there's a leap in maturity that is necessary when moving into the increasing abstraction of precalculus, much of which is harder to connect to meaningful applications (especially the way it's taught in North America). In addition, the number and complexity of computational steps in each problem demands greater executive functions to keep organized, sustain concentration, and self-monitor (screen/check for minor errors) all the way to the end. The difference in frontal lobe development between an early adolescent and a late adolescent is quite substantial, and may be enough to account for the experience of these early adolescents with precalculus.

You mention messing up calculations toward the end of problems. That sounds consistent with EF difficulties, as that is the kind of error that happens when one is unable to sustain attention throughout the entire problem/exam. (Not saying this is your child, but for example,) Even if attention is managed with psychostimulants, the underlying disorganization does not necessarily improve much. And self-monitoring skills are both developmental and learned. If they have not previously been necessary, and one's native ability for self-monitoring is marginal, then they will not suddenly appear without instruction and practice.

ETA: Oh, and I've noticed that having an adult scaffold EF helps our own child substantially. Scaffolding consisting often only of company, "yes, you can do it", and "please check your work". And the occasional, "hyperventilating will not help your math brain work better."

My kids are younger but this discussion is interesting to me because my kids are also tending to make those EF-type errors. DS is 8, but in 6th grade math and he recently did long division with lots of digits and decimals, and there were tons of careless errors. He knows all the steps and conceptually understands it, but seems to drift off in the middle of problems and isn't necessarily even copying the problems correctly (although this could be from dysgraphia). With one problem he got so fed up that he attempted to do the whole thing mentally, it was something like 766.22/ 33.88. Needless to say he got it wrong on his test. He thought it was acceptable, apparently, to just "estimate". DD on the other hand seems to have full-blown ADHD but she is meticulous with her math and rarely makes careless errors. She is excessively slow, though, and it could easily take her 5X longer to do the same problem as DS whipping right through it.

Unless DS improves a lot with his EF ability I'm anticipating problems down the line as the math gets harder. I'm not opposed to having him repeat any material that he's stuggling with, and see flexibility as the key with these accelerated students, although I don't know how that works once you are in high school and you have credits and grades on transcripts.

Could EF difficulties show up only on math problems? Otherwise she is actually much more on her organizational game than her grademates, in life and in school. She also doesn't seem to have this problem in other subjects. Could it just be showing up in Math because of the long detailed nature of problems? As far as self-checking her work, I don't think she's ever had to do this before and so I doubt it's something she does. I'll have to ask her about this part.

HowlerKarma, she would be one that would definitely benefit from a grading standpoint with a focus on approach. As would my DS11, who often has a unique but conceptually sound way of working problems!

I'm going to have to ask her about the perfectionism piece. And I do think there is some adjusting to now having to work when she hasn't before. I could see her finding it easier to do poorly when she didn't put forth her full effort.

By birthday she would be in eighth grade but she was never actually in that grade because she just missed the cutoff and ability and achievement testing showed she was more than ready for "early" K. In early elementary she grade skipped after a year of subject acceleration (several subjects). In 7th grade she skipped pre-algebra. Other than math she is doing all 10th grade work (she is in 10th grade), although she is on the advanced track in science, which at her school means chemistry this year.

She was just telling me, "The thing is I totally get the math and what I'm doing. I'm just having trouble getting it right on tests." She did say she loses her concentration sometimes during the long problems and that she's definitely not used to having to think/work hard after all these years. She also said that she is anxious about not doing well on tests, because she hasn't been.

I've also got younger ones, but back when I did high school, pre-calc was the easiest of the high school maths. The first half is generally review, and the second half trig. If she was struggling in Alg II and didn't get the concepts/automaticity/etc., you may just see that repeating itself this year.

By this stage, she should start checking every problem on a test. For a tough exam, it's good advice to skim through the questions and start with the easiest ones. Move on to the harder questions. Then, always, always save time to go back and check answers. Having a good strategy for exams will help her confidence.

Also, how does the homework go? If she's struggling, do you see that in HW problems? By college, generally you decide how much homework to do, so it's good study practice to learn that when you're struggling doing extra homework will help. Math is a lot of practice, and with more practice, her performance will undoubtedly improve.

Is it possible that she isn't fully comfortable with the concepts? In my experience (as both a learner and as a teacher of my kids), I've noticed that basic mistakes show up when the student is still having to work at understanding what a problem is asking and at setting up a solution. I've seen this in my sons, my daughter, and myself. I suspect that the problem happens because the mind is focused on two big things: concept and calculation. The horsepower that's required to think about the concept diminishes the ability to calculate.

I've also seen that students can give an impression of understanding something when they don't fully get it. In my experience, this situation is common, and I wonder if it's even a normal part of the learning process. I've observed it not only in my kids (and myself), but in students I taught at a community college. They seem to understand something when I ask a straightforward question, but falter when I ask a question that comes from a different direction --- even if the second question is a logical extension of the first idea.

Hmmmm.... picking up on the last few thoughts, especially Val: we after school with AoPS, and there is a radical difference between what DS learns at home and at school. At school, he's likely to see a concept, then the exact same problem 50 more times with different digits, then a few ridiculously simple word problems. AoPS in contrast gives you one shot at it, then next problem comes at it from another direction, then another, then another, then.... ad nauseum. It's really brought home to me the profound difference between "understanding" a concept and *understanding* a concept. At school, you learn to rote repeat the same steps to finish the task. But change anything, and it's not the same task anymore and the kids struggle to fit it into the pattern they learned. With something like AoPS, you learn why it works, how it works, and what happens to it and how you can use it in a hundred different "but what if" scenarios that may look nothing like the original problem.

Would it possibly help your daughter to work with some "deeper" math than she might be getting at school, where she can get more practice and help in seeing how the concepts play out in a wider variety of problems?

mnmom23,

Are you comfortable with the math? If so, I'd spend some time reviewing her homework with her, which would give you an opportunity to tease out whether or not it's truly just EF issues as she completes long problems, or if it's an issue with not fully understanding concepts. I wouldn't 100% rely on her telling you she understands it - watch over her work and see if she really does.


It's possible she might not have gained a thorough understanding of her studies in Algebra II last year. If there's any chance that's tripping her up, I'd consider reviewing it, or even (I know this is going to sound completely radical here).. repeating it. The repeat doesn't have to be through school, but if she's interested in studying the sciences and/or math further, she'll need to have the concepts down and solid. It doesn't mean she isn't insanely bright, just means she had a rough atypical year last year.

"She seems to understand setting up the problems and gets the concepts but is somehow messing up too many calculations toward the end of problems. It's her test grades that are terrible."

Is her homework ok? Does she get to the end of long problems without issues? Is she truly setting up the problems ok? If all of those answers are yes, and the trouble is isolated to tests, then work with her on test-taking strategies, including not just checking your work, but talk her through what happens when she takes tests. Does she feel rushed, is she having difficulty getting everything done within the time given for the test? Is she anxious? Is the room noisy? etc. If she's having the same issues with homework, see if there are commonalities in the things that she messes up on, or if it's random.

I'd also review the situation with the teacher and class - is it possible she's had two years of teachers who weren't the best at communicating concepts or inspiring students? Note: I'm not mentioning that to be cold-hearted toward teachers - I love and respect and think the world of teachers - just mentioned it because I've seen that it's tough for *my* kids to stay focused in class when concepts in math are explained in a dry, not-so-interesting approach. One of my teens has no trouble with this, but he's a math whiz. My dd, otoh, who is *trslly good* at math and is accelerated in math, but it isn't her strength or passion, flounders when the teaching method doesn't keep her engaged.

Best wishes,

polarbear

We are also seeing this for the first time with our 9-year-old, accelerated to 6th grade math. Huge grade drop got our attention. Seems to be a few things: setting up problems in a clear, consistent manner (the clear part is harder when your handwriting isn't too neat and the spaces are small), checking over the work, rechecking. He's made a lot of progress with those things.

For the original poster, I would think perhaps this is an important time to coach her through approaching a challenge and figuring out things to try to overcome it. Based partially on personal experience and partially on our son's experience of finally hitting a struggle. It's easy for girls and particularly, gifted girls, to hit that first set of bad grades and to decide they are no longer good at the subject.

Does your DC make the same mistakes consistently? For our DD, highly gifted in math, when she could see where she tended to make mistakes on the math it made all the difference. She would work all the way through some moderately hard problem, get to the end and get some basic math fact wrong. Think working a Trig problem, getting to the end and subtracting 3 from 32 and getting 30. Once DD knew she tended to do this, she corrected for it and slowed down on the simpler math at the end. Still made some of the errors, but was much more likely to catch them herself when checking over her answers because she knew that it might be wrong. This was crucial for her when she was taking the SAT because she was 3 years beyond that math and it was really easy to "rush" on the problems.

Also found that talking about test taking strategies like what to study (and how), what will most likely be on the test, how to check problems (many kiddos do not know how to work the problems in reverse because the teacher may not have covered it), as well as assessing what this teacher wants on the test and homework was helpful.

Since your DC's grades were impacted last year, could you give an end of year exam for last year's class and see if she has any weak areas? Shoring those up with a tutor (or knowledgeable parent) may improve things for her now.

Thanks for all the input. It's given me some good questions to ask her and to ask my DH, who's the one who has looked at her homework. He confirms that she always sets the problems up correctly and can talk about her reasoning, and it's almost always sound. He says she just makes calculation errors in the middle of problems and then works the remainder of the problems with faulty numbers. This seems in line with what her teacher says and with what DD says about getting distracted. So I think that she really needs to work on focusing and checking her work. We talked about it and she says she thinks this might help.

She did have a very dry teacher last year who was super-particular about non-math things like where to place problems on the page and other things that were really just jumping through hoops.

As far as assessing whether she learned the concepts last year in Algebra 2, she took a standardized assessment that included Algebra 2 and even some calculus and she got a 99%Ile score.

She has a test tomorrow and we've talked about taking her time and checking her work. I will talk with her about taking time to work the problems backwards. Hopefully since we've talked about how she thinks she loses focus she will be more aware of that as well. I will also ask her what she thinks about working the easiest problems first.

Thanks for all the ideas. Hopefully she'll see some improvements.

Well, anxiety is the obvious first issue since test scores are the biggest factor in her grade decline. After that, I think working memory, processing speed, and executive functioning (in this specific context) could be contributing factors. It has been my observation that most kids of average or above intelligence are actually ready at a conceptual level for more accelerated math than their school provides to them; however, most kids do not have the working memory, processing speed, or executive function to handle the accelerated curriculum as designed. Schools hold half the kids back because it is much easier to teach them when they are not just conceptually ready but have all the supporting tools to succeed without accommodations.

DS12 is one year behind your DD math-wise and hasn't hit his wall yet in school math; however, I have seen this phenomenon in competition level math with a time element like the AMC 8 and AMC 10 over the years. He simply made far fewer "careless" errors after he mastered/internalized concepts versus when he just understands these concepts - this conforms with what I have heard from some top math competitors.