In the last few months I have witnessed DD10 getting "stuck" by a problem that she can't work out immediately. Most of the time she will accept help from me, DH, or DD11, but every once in awhile she just freaks out. I posted before that I once had to take the computer away and talk her down like someone ready to jump off a building "It's ok. You don't have to do this. You are finished. Let's move on." Meanwhile she is sobbing that she has to finish it right now!!!!
Yesterday at the library she had a problem that she wouldn't accept help for and then she became louder and louder "I don't get it! It's not making sense!!" I recommended that she just skip it, do the others, and come back later. Then she wailed that she had to finish it NOW!!!! Meanwhile people were staring. I was as quietly gentle as I could be, but it was beginning to bother people. Finally I stated that if it went on we would have to leave the library. Oh boy, then she began loudly hissing that I hated her, this just proved it, and she was NOT leaving the library. I just kept gathering up the books, and we all left. In the parking lot she just broke down and sobbed that I hated her; I embarrassed her (by pulling her out of the library). It was ugly. I almost didn't go to work, but my husband was almost there to pick up the girls.

So, a couple of questions. How does one stop the cycle when a kid gets that ramped up? How does a mom deal with the guilt when child is saying she hates her? This is a theme in our house for DD. My statement back is I am getting her ready to be a grownup (making her do chores, behave, etc). It has nothing to do with love or no love on my part. Perhaps this really got to me yesterday and the last time because DD rarely cries. Oh, and I told her this morning that we were going to discuss this later so maybe you all have some ideas on how to frame that conversation?

So, I think many of the parents in this group are dealing with more extreme situations than you and I, but I still think some of these approaches are helpful:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/parentingwithconnection/837469033003595/?notif_t=group_comment_reply

Also--my bio dd would occasionally get stuck like that (usually over a math problem) and end up in tears.

I know how hard it is in a public place when you feel like people are staring and judging. Check out the above group, and maybe even post a specific example. I have gotten some good inspiration from lurking there.

I don't have any advice on how to frame the upcoming conversations, but I am wondering since I recall she has undergone a lot of changes (in her life, and also just recently) - if I recall, she is the one who was grade skipped to her sister's grade... if so, maybe you need to sit down and talk to her about whether your DD is finding that she thinks she needs to be able to "think faster" or such. And also, when there is no immediate problem to be solved - maybe it is an idea to talk about how you can help her when these intense emotions of "must get this done right now!" - see if she can think of strategies you can implement or you make some suggestions that helps.


Also - something that I have thought about whether I would explore when my kids are older is something like a shared journal or book where you both can write your perspectives in the same book, and write down the feelings, concerns etc. Dealing with intense emotions when they burst out is not usually the right time for this, but most likely if it explodes like that, it is buried in calm times, but reachable in ways maybe she can write it down. I am a big journal writer myself and during some of the major emotional turmoils I was struggling through, I wrote volumes (literally).

At the start of puberty, girls become SUPER volatile like this-- given her age, that is a distinct possibility.

A major melt-down like that in a public place where others go to work in a quiet environment? You're more patient than I'd have been, most likely.

Once she's calmed down-- if it were me, and I realize that it isn't-- I'd point out that her conduct was interfering with the ability of OTHERS to do what they went there to do, and that it is, for that reason alone, never to be repeated.

It's one thing to lack emotional regulation and throw a tantrum. Quite another to subject innocent bystanders to such a thing.

Then, I'm afraid that I wouldn't take her BACK to the library until she demonstrated that she has the ability to regulate herself better. Sure-- go for a quick trip to get books or whatever, but no more settling in to work there.

(I realize that probably isn't what you want to hear.)

Also-- know that for some kids, the "I hate you" gambit is one that they trot out because it gets to you. Honestly, you kind of have to let that one roll off your back a bit. I figure that if I'm doing my job as a mom properly, there are GOING to be times when my DD is furious with me for exercising my judgment... .um, instead of hers. LOL. I have learned to not worry too much about what she says to me in a fit of pique.

Then again, we come from pretty volatile (genetic) stock-- so that may be easier for me to say that for some parents. Our home is not 'tranquil' nor 'soothing' as a general rule, emotionally-speaking. It isn't who we are as people.

Also know that truly secure attachment means that your kids will feel that they CAN say anything to you as a parent, and know that you'll love them anyway. They say such things because we're the ONLY people they can let that much out with. It's a back-handed compliment, to be sure.

We tried the journal thing-- didn't work very well, since DD didn't approach it seriously.

When my son used to get this way, I did exactly the same type of thing you did. The work was immediately stopped and my son send somewhere (usually his room) where he could calm down. What I learned was to not try and reason with him once he would break down because it never worked and only made things worse. We would discuss the situation later (next day -- at least 6 hours later) after he had calmed down and had time to recoup. We discussed that I was sending him to him room wasn't to 'punish' him but to give him space to calm down. I had been taking classes in "non violent communication" that I found helpful in talking my child through his feelings and keeping him involved in the solutions. I don't feel real comfortable in explaining this whole system but one of the main points to to talk about both of your feelings and make sure you DD hears you state that you recognize her feelings before moving onto solutions.

My personal belief is that early puberty exasperated this situation. My son was the most difficult at 11-12. My DS16's never did this type of thing at a library but did throw these fits AT SCHOOL. And believe me that got him into a heap of trouble. I ended up taking DS to a psychologist who diagnosed him with anxiety disorder. He did end up helping him a lot. That and the social skill class I put him in that spring. Screaming fits in class did nothing to make his classmates like him. The professionals that worked with him taught him some technique to help "center" him.

At 16 my son is an entirely different child. Although it's not that he doesn't have similar problem with perfectionism and getting stuck on work. But he has learned how better to control his emotions. We have worked hard at managing his stress but cutting back the difficulty level in some classes. I believe some of this is just growing up and getting more mature. But as I've stated I've also gotten him professional help.

Good Luck. I've been there and it's not fun.

HK brings up a good point about puberty. My bio dd14 had quite some meltdowns, and then felt terrible and guilty about her behavior and hated feeling out of control. For her it did pass.

I think it is also important to recognize that there are differences between kids who are being raised in their biological families and kids who are not. And I think in a gifted kid this can be even more intense. Obviously not everything is attributable to this...but I believe that a lot more actually is than many APs (myself included) have acknowedged. This is not excusing bad behavior, but rather, considering the impact of early experiences on brain development and how to best understand and respond to help the child regulate.

"In the first year or so after adoption, it’s easy for adoptive parents to remember what a difficult journey their child has been through. As time passes, parents expect their children’s challenging behaviors, anxiety, and mistrust to fade away. And oftentimes, they do. So why does your child still react to lunch being delayed by five minutes if they haven’t gone hungry in eight years? Why is it still difficult for them to trust that moms and dads will meet their needs? Despite years in a safe and loving home- children adopted after traumatic beginnings still feel and act as though they are stuck right in the middle of their trauma. What is happening in a child’s brain when an old memory becomes triggered? Why does it seem as though the past nine years haven’t made any difference in healing a child’s trust in you? Up-to-date information about your child’s brain and the latest understanding in memory processing theory will help provide you with new empathy and understanding about why your child is ‘flipping their lid.’"

https://gobbelcounseling.wordpress.com/2013/06/13/trauma-doesnt-tell-time/

Here are some things I would try for the conversation today. Caveat: I do most of my parenting on feel and intuition rather than following others' philosophies or methods, so what I do may be specific to my own kids. I'm also really bad at judging what is blindingly obvious and what is my own insight. Please forgive me if this is what everyone does already or it would never work for anyone else.

- for talking them down: it's ugly, yes. Try distraction, especially with food or exercise. My kids don't ramp up that fast, so I'm usually able to defuse the situation early.

- for setting up a serious conversation: make the situation as cozy and non-threatening as possible: cuddle on the couch, milk and cookies, not so far outside the norm as to raise suspicions but generally a situation that exudes caring. Plan to do as much listening as possible, and plan to keep your own emotions as muted and gentle as you can. I think some kids respond to emotional 'noise' and can't handle it.

- for "you hate me": I see a couple of different possible motivations for this, that would get different approaches in my house. It may be a combination of the two. Maybe ask her what she expects to happen when she uses those words, or what her feelings were during an incident that prompted them, or ask directly if she feels out of control or feels you want to turn her into a grown-up that she isn't yet. This is the trickiest part; you have to get her to think a ABOUT the situation, immersively enough to identify emotions, but with enough remove that she isn't overwhelmed. Watch out for signs that she's starting to build up stress, and offer a way out of the question if it's too intense. "Hm, my milk cup is empty. I think I need a refill. Do you want some, too?"

One possibility is that she knows it's one of your buttons and she's trying to get a reaction. This might be something she feels like she can control when she feels out of control - like when a problem is too hard. You don't hate her. Hold tight to that, and don't try too hard to convince her of it; this is the response she's trying to get. Instead, offer her other things to control, in this moment and out of it. Not knowing your DD, I'm not sure what to suggest for this.

Another possibility is that she's feeling like the child she is today isn't getting the love; it's all saved up for the adult she will be someday. Remember that this is her perception, not your intent. It deserves attention and conversation but not guilt. The solution is better communication. Ask what a loving parent would do; how would she take care of her kid; how would she prepare her kid for adulthood; how can someone love the kid WHILE preparing them for adulthood; just keep her talking so you can keep listening.

- to make it stick: this sort of conversation isn't easy, and will probably make her tense up at first. When she's talked out, she will begin to relax a bit. When you see that happening, ask what the two of you can do in the future to make things better. Try to let her make the suggestions, but offer some if she doesn't have any ideas. If you have to turn some of her ideas down, explain why they aren't practical. Hopefully you will end up with a couple of strategies that she thinks will work to defuse situations and make her feel loved/in control.

Wishing you patience, composure, and luck.

This might be helpful:
https://gobbelcounseling.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/whats-regulation-got-to-do-with-it-behavior/

When she says, "You HATE ME!", she may be using that in a number of ways:

- She needs reassurance, and this is a quick way to try to get it.
- She's angry and lashing out with a verbal WMD.

You kept your calm, and extricated her from the situation. I wouldn't have tried to handle it any differently. The only advice I can offer on how to stop the cycle in the future is to be ready to end the activity sooner, before it escalates to the same point.

In case she's trying to weaponize it, I can only recommend that you not show your DD how much hearing "You HATE ME!" bothers you.

As for framing the conversation, the problem here seems to be one of unrealistic expectations. Your DD will often find things confusing. Some things take time to learn. We often need to have information presented in more than one way, before something clicks. Sometimes we need additional information that hasn't been presented. Sometimes we just need time to process what we've learned, in order to put it into practice.

When this topic has come up with my own DD10, I was able to offer her my own professional experiences with difficult problems that weren't offering themselves any solutions:

- When things don't make sense, my frustration can build, which becomes an enemy to clear thinking. Also, sometimes my thinking is just plain wrong, but in the moment I'm locked into that bad logic path. In both cases, a key trick is to WALK AWAY, and stop thinking about it for a while. Even in high-pressure situations, I've found it helps to leave the room, grab a beverage, go find someone and talk about their day. After some minutes have passed, I come back in, and take a fresh look at it. It's often times that this fresh perspective shows me my error, I laugh at myself for missing something obvious, and that ten minutes away pays off in spades.

So, your proposal to come back to it later was a solid strategy used by a great many smart people, and your DD should give it a try.

- Sometimes when I use the above trick, the other person ends up drawing me out to talk about the problem that drove me out of the room, even though my purpose was to think about anything but. Even if they're someone who has no background in what I'm working on, the process of explaining it to them so they can understand enhances my own understanding, and once the problem has been given full explanation, the next steps tend to present themselves.

This ends up as a one-way conversation, with the other side limited to, "Oh." "Uh-huh." "Yep." "Uhhh.... you're welcome?"

I've been on both sides of this conversation. It's rather common in my world.

- And then, of course, there are the conversations with someone who knows what I'm talking about, which very often leads to helpful information, because they've dealt with something very similar, and they may have tools or strategies to offer that you've never seen or considered before. These then become part of your permanent toolbox, helping you grow. Learning from other people is ALWAYS a good idea.

- For some even harder problems, I've seen where considering the problem in idle, random moments often leads to breakthroughs. To illustrate this, I describe one of my most brilliant coworkers, who would announce a big idea to a problem that had been perplexing us for weeks with the prelude, "I was in the shower this morning, and..." It was amusing and disturbing at the same time to hear so often about his showers.

- I've also mentioned the neuroscience of how people process information in their sleep, and the thing which was difficult the day before, becomes obvious and easy the next day. So, when time is not a factor, "sleep on it" is solid advice. DD has seen this in practice, where that gymnastics move she failed on 50 attempts one day, she nails it first try the next morning.

The overriding theme here is that this is how really bright minds work on difficult problems. Nobody gets all the answers right away. Forcing yourself to get the absolute right answer immediately can actually be counterproductive.

I would start by telling her I loved her. I would keep the conversation light and pleasant, and ask her about things you do that show you love her, maybe trail off into things she wishes you might do (or do more of) to show her you love her. The conversation might even be framed with a bit of silliness, "How do I love thee... let me count the ways..." Some kids like hugs, or backrubs, or story time, or going to the mall, or doing crafts together, or going for a snack or treat... any of these usually form a backdrop for pleasant conversation, opportunities to bond and keep in touch with the growing, changing child. You might share that other ways of showing love for our children including guiding, correcting, advocating for, providing for... and a host of other things which kids may tend to discount or take for granted. The idea of talking about "love language" is to find areas of agreement, and build trust and understanding.

You might then explain that frustration is a natural, normal part of life, and help her to identify if that is what she was experiencing. You might brainstorm on things in life that need immediate attention (must be done NOW), and things do not need to be addressed right away, and may even benefit by "putting it on the back burner", "talking it over", or even "sleeping on it". Be sure to role model this in daily life and share out loud when you are stumped and need a "PLAN B", a fresh set of eyes to look at something, and/or are setting something aside with a plan to return to it later. The idea is again to find areas of agreement.

Then you might want to address behavior, especially the point at which the escalation of her behavior crossed the line to being unacceptable. Typical conversation might focus on seeing if she can identify when she is escalating, and catch herself, using self-talk to deescalate rather than lash out at others. This can be done gently, without seeming harsh or punitive. The idea is to gain agreement as to what might have been done differently, and how these ideas will be incorporated when she experiences frustration in the future.

Then you may wish to close with some of her qualities that you especially enjoy, helping her to see that is valued for who she is, not for her accomplishments & achievements.

In general, when delivering feedback, using a "sandwich method" may help keep the tone constructive.

Wishing you all the best in helping your daughter slow down so she can gracefully navigate these speed bumps in life.

I wanted to add that once my DS ramped up there was no way to talk him down. You HAD to remove him from the situation and give several hours for him to calm down. He honestly didn't even know he was doing it. (And yes lots of homework didn't get turned in the spring of his 6th grade.) What we did work out was a non-threatening phrase I (or his teacher) could say when she started noticing his fretting. I got good at noticing when he would start to spin and fret because part of the problem was he rarely realized he was doing it. I would jump in and just say something like "your starting to get loud". I found that keeping the phrase simple and non confrontational helped. Reminding him of what would happen if it escalated usually made it worse.

The trick is working out when she is calm and rational how you should try and handle when the situation happens in the future that works for you both. Be consistent but know that it will take time. Try to understand that this is not personal and she may have little idea what she is saying once she gets on a rant. And that yes puberty and hormones are probably playing a part but don't tell her that.

As to the "I hate you". I would ignore that when talking to her for the initial conversation. The current conversation needs to be about what you do to PREVENT this type of situation in the future. Don't get stuck on the words she said. Sure in some later conversations you needs to talk about how much those kids of words hurt. Make this about how you can NOT throw screaming fits when you get stuck on a problem.

One thing that surprises me is that my son remembers none of this and he has just turned 12 at the time and is 16 now. It was very dramatic for me and for him at the time. He remembers the social difficulties

I think bluemagic has great advice above. The only thing I see differently is that it helped my daughter to understand that puberty and hormones were playing a part. Not for her to have an excuse of course. Even now, there are times when it is obvious that her disproportionate reaction is hormone related and realizing that is a good thing for her (and us!).

Also, when my daughter had those meltdowns over math we just talked a lot about why that was why we chose to skip, so that she would learn what it was like to struggle and not understand immediately.

The American Girl books on puberty/feelings etc. were a good resource.

My son started social group therapy and the word they use for this kind of "stuck" is rockbrain. Before, he never understood what it was and the problems it caused. Now, it's a code word for unstick. I say "rockbrain" and he understands what he's doing and tries if get it under control.

It has also helped to set a boundary before we go out-- one major boundary is that I won't tolerate public scenes. A scene in public can be unsafe, disruptive to others and just plain embarrassing for the whole family. If there is a public scene, we will leave and when he calms down, he can expect a major consequence

I think for kids who get "stuck" (mine has ADHD) they need to know ahead of time what the expectation is, be cognizant of the kind of thoughts/ behaviors that are warning signs (in this case rockbrain) and have coping skills to stay in control (counting, deep breaths, in my son's case, when possible, he leaves the area for a few minutes).

just a personal experience - although I never melted down (too scared of dear step dad for that!)I did often have very angry outbursts and called my mum all sorts of things. The worst thing for me was that she would engage with me. I was just blowing off steam and she was taking it as a full psychological assault and start her own histrionics. Too this day (I am 40) I don't talk to my mother about emotional issues because it becomes all about her.

I think you need to look at this a s too separate issues. One, potentially a hormonal/coping issue that really is not about you and can probably helped by general parenting tweens advice (I'm not there yet).

Second It sounds like your daughter really is struggling with her perceptions of what she needs to be doing and I think you've been given great advice above re that.

Really though, unless you have immediate concerns about your DD's safety I think you need to be your DD's emotional rock right now and just not buy into the drama. Oh and I'm def with HK on the whole, have your tantrum but don't interfere with others take on it.

I missed this post before. This is VERY familiar to me, like to the letter, although DD is significantly less likely to do this kind of thing in public now. She is a total "rockbrain" at home, though.

I really endorse bluemagic's approach. When DD gets like this, the best/only option is neutrality and calm as much as possible. There is no getting through to her logically. We have to talk about it later. Sometimes removal is VERY difficult (what am I going to do, pick up my 11yo?--and she does NOT care about consequences in the moment). That's the worst. But separation is a good idea. If I have to, I separate myself, as long as it seems safely reasonable.

Oh, and I would not make a big deal about the "you hate me" thing. DD has said the same to me, if it helps (and "I hate you," of course.) I remind her LATER, briefly, that these are hurtful things to say. She is always remorseful...I bet your DD will be, too.

There should be no guilt when your DD says that she hates you - it is obviously emotional manipulation and you should treat it as such. I would tell her casually that it was all right that she hated me or that it was not a problem or even that "I hate myself sometimes too, so it is nothing new!".
I set very high expectations on behavior, especially when out in public places and expect my child to not create problems for others who have a right to conduct their business without being subjected to emotional drama from others. If this happened, it would be the last time that my child would go to a library or a public place to hang out, work etc. The child has to prove to me over a long period of time that they can be trusted to behave without having meltdowns before I take her out to such a setting again.
As for how to defuse the situation when this happens, I would try distraction. That is the only way that I can manage an emotional situation. This behavior may be the result of anxiety, stress, tiredness, hunger etc in addition to the puberty hormones that HK pointed out.

As for the "I hate you" line, my stock response is, "that's alright, you're feeling X because Y. I'll always love you, and nothing you ever do will change that." It's a covert way to succinctly communicate that the underlying emotional need has been heard while reframing the incident around love. In any given incident, it might not be effective at tamping down hysteria but, used consistently, helps with the faux hurt feelings.

As to the hysteria, don't feel that you have to explain or justify yourself in the moment. The rationality train has flown over a cliff at that point. I think of my job during meltdowns as containment, then discipline, then discussion.

You've received a lot of good advice from the trenches, above. Whatever you choose will depend very much on you, your children, and your family system. I'm just going to add that, no matter what strategy you end up using, stick with it for a little bit before deciding that it is ineffective. Children commonly will up the ante when you implement a new strategy. An initial escalation in undesirable behavior may be a test to see if you really mean it. (Whether it's limit-setting, or expressions of unconditional love and affection.) Almost any mediocre approach, consistently applied, will be more effective than the most fabulous technique employed weakly. Don't feel defeated if it seems to get worse before it gets better!

Another thing you can do is in other areas show her it is not a big deal to skip around and come back to something later.

Got a nasty crusted up cooking pan? fill it with soapy water over to the side to soak and wash the rest of the dishes....no big deal to skip around.

Got a stack of mail to look through? ...no big deal to handle the junk mail first, the easy to handle second and the more difficult mail last.

Have a stack of reading to do? You might want to tackle it shorter to longer or by a different order. The order isn't set in stone you can change your mind.

Just because math problems are numbered 1-20 doesn't mean you have to do them in that order.

This is fantastic - thanks all! I plan to create a document with this all and sit down and think it through. So much good stuff to think about and then come up with a plan. DD is, like many kids I read about here, intense. She is so amazing and sometimes so exhausting!!! Right now she is petting her kitty and just looking so cute. Hard to believe that a bit over 24 hours ago she was so angry.

Yes, DD was accelerated into her big sister's grade. It has gone so smoothly - thank you for pointing out that she might yet be dealing with the change. Also - just tonight we were discussing starting another journal. I told her I would read my 6th grade journal to her and her sister so we could compare 6th grade experiences. I have kept diaries/journals my whole life.

With respect, I don't find this a helpful suggestion. Think of what you are saying. The last time your child would go to a public place to hang out? Ever again?

You probably didn't mean exactly that, but even if what you really meant was "The child would be barred from going to the library till..." (what?) I have stopped thinking of my child (undiagnosed, but lacking in emotional control and maturity for sure) as intentionally doing things like this to be "bad" or "manipulative." Some children really have trouble with intensity and huge feelings. What you're suggesting is somewhat similar to punishing a child for depression or anxiety. This may even BE anxiety. I don't think the OP's daughter is being bratty or Veruca Salt-ish. I think she is having trouble.

Yes, absolutely. Early childhood trauma may follow some adoptees their whole lives. Not to say they are eternally damaged, but that the trauma will be part and parcel of their being. I sometimes wonder if it is possible to pick apart which issues are adoption related and those which are part of giftedness in a child.

I like that phrase! I need to write it down so I can remember it.
And, to all who talked about why it's important and how to walk away from a problem and come back later, thank you. As I said a bit earlier I will take a look at all the responses and come up with a game plan. I love concrete ideas about how to handle things.

YES-- this is it exactly-- some combination of factors is leading to difficulty with regulation.

The underlying reason for restricted space to work it out is actually two-fold, here:

1. Being in a place/space where options are less limited in the moment means more chance to escalate to a point of no recovery and full, red-alert meltdown.

2. There is the matter of others and their needs/wants to consider. Throwing a hissy fit in a library IS rude, and it IS an imposition on others who did nothing to deserve that.


Now, the "rational" part of her is likely to see item 2 as being significant there, but parents are likely to view 1 as equally important, if more of a stealth reason in their explanations to her.

I'm just saying that life in a civilized society means being unselfish enough to admit that 2 is a consideration at all. From the OP, it is clear that this family does consider that to be a matter for consideration.

It will need to be approached gently, however, so as not to make it a matter of shaming, so much as a matter-of-fact consideration. Something about working in public in a space where behavioral expectations are so narrow was not a good addition to this problem for now. Ergo, until that is no longer true, that setting seems an inappropriate location for the activity.

Well, I think it would be fine to say, "I don't think doing homework at the library is working well for you right now." And I do think it's appropriate to go over, "So, it's not considerate to be loud and distracting in the library," although I bet she darn well knows this, so IDK. (You know, TBH I haven't been to many libraries where it was stone-quiet; some child, adult, or homeless person is periodically loud at ours on a very regular basis). But I wouldn't want to see this turn into a shaming, "No public places for YOU! YOU can't CONTROL yourself!" thing, not that I think the OP will. It's more that I read a post like that and feel sad and wonder how many people are thinking that sort of thing all the time about children with challenges, emotional or otherwise ("They should not bring that child in public!")