I know this is certainly not a gifted-exclusive issue, but it does relate to giftedness in several ways. My children are 11 and 7, and quite nice to spend time with solo, but really pretty awful to be around together these days. It seems like they are just looking for reasons to be mad at each other. They are never physical, but it's like being with a bitter divorcing couple. Every remark (and this is partly where the giftedness comes in) is analyzed for hidden meaning, and they are so reactive to even the tiniest slight, perceived or real. They can fight over the placement of a napkin or the sound of a word, and with their excellent oral language skills, they will go at each other like lawyers in a courtroom. I often just make them stop talking about whatever it is and/or separate them, because it's so awful to listen to and sends my blood pressure through the roof, but that's not practical or productive.

If there is an actual conflict over a real issue (they both want to use the same item), we can usually problem solve that. This isn't really about that. It's perceived tone, someone not liking someone's comment, someone wanting someone to stop singing, things like that. Basically, they seem to just drive each other crazy--oil and water. I should note that they still do play with each other, but DD is getting to the tween age, and there is some angst happening regarding what she wants to do vs. what he wants to do.

I guess I am hoping that others have gone through this and have some thoughts. I have tried family meetings, asking them to compliment/do nice things for each other, giving them more solo time with each parent, and just having them spend less time together. They will start this within seconds of reuniting even if apart all day.

Why not?

Clearly they are getting something out of the bickering, or they wouldn't do it.

I'd separate them while also making sure that neither gets what they want while separated (eg the book they're fighting over goes away for everyone). I do this regardless of fault-- I don't care who started it, if everyone's behaving rudely, everyone gets consequences.


I'd also make sure that each child gets quality time with a parent, and that each one gets to spend time in situations that feel rewarding to them. It's important for everyone to feel valued.

My bet is that it may improve with time, but there's nothing wrong with keeping them separate more until then. For sanity's sake...

I guess, but if you're thinking it's attention, I don't think so. All they ever get is "Stop it! Both of you stop! I don't want to hear it!" or varieties thereof. Not very productive/positive/creative, but I don't take sides.

I actually think they are just mad at each other and/or have negative feelings towards each other and this is how it's coming out.

Separation is impractical because it's so constant, and we need to do things like eat together and do activities together and ride in the car. We have gone so far as to impose silence in the car when it gets bad, but it feels kind of awful to do that.

They are getting huge amounts of attention from each other by doing this. And it is surprising the extent to which negative attention is still attention.


It's OK (and productive) for parents to show kids where the line is.


I've done it. (We call it "the cone of silence.") It is far better than the bickering, and again, teaches them that their bickering is unpleasant and unacceptable for the people around them.

It is reasonable for you as a person to insist on civility in your environment.

Hmmm...I guess I hadn't thought about it being an effort for them to get attention *from each other.* I'll think about that some more.

I'm trying to work on helping them talk to each other. I don't feel like they converse much, maybe because there tend to be landmines (someone will attack/correct/take issue with someone else). They either play, which, oddly, they play much more harmoniously than they talk, or they fight. I would love to see them TALK.

May be difficult at this phase, but once they've worked through whatever they're working through, might be possible later.

Right now, I'd aim for sanity and civility, and work up to the talking.

Do you know the Dinner Games (little box of cards)? Maybe structured, gamelike conversation over dinner would help?

We do have something like that, and we use it...I am trying to pace it so we don't run out too fast!

More here. http://thefamilydinnerproject.org/fun/dinner-games/

Wow - my kids (DD10 and DS7) do this sometimes, but not as bad as it sounds at your house. My DD is also 'high needs' with a lot of anxiety issues that take up a lot of parent time. DS often tries to insert himself in the middle when I'm dealing with her - boy it's hard!

He also tries to get DD's attention - a lot! He'll go and just stand in her room and of course then she'll yell at him to get out - goes downhill from there.

I don't have any good advice, but there are a couple of books I've been meaning to take a look at:

Peaceful Parent, Happy Siblings: How to Stop the Fighting and Raise Friends for Life http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03...=yourparesolu-20&linkId=4YCOWSJBTYMZPFB6

I really like Dr. Laura Markham - I find her parenting advice very gentle and practical. Her web site is http://www.ahaparenting.com/

Another one recommended to me is in the American Girl book series:
Siblings: You're Stuck with Each Other
http://www.amazon.com/Siblings-Your...4_53?ie=UTF8&refRID=0AMHXH2WKX5RWKH2Y7S6

Again, I haven't read it yet, but a friend of mine said her DD found it really useful.

Hmmm...it's bad, and I hate it, but I don't know if I would consider it extremely pathological. I have been considering it a problematic phase. I guess I did use the word "horrific"...

DD is being evaluated this summer for various concerns, but we still have a while to wait. I would say that her concerns are a factor here for sure, but not the only factor.

Are you implying that my posts suggest I have boundary problems? I don't say that combatively. Curious, though.

I like the look of that American Girl book. DD has their puberty book and it's excellent. I like Markham pretty well, but the reviews of that book indicate it's similar to Siblings without Rivalry, which I have read and reread! We can use that S w/o R approach decently for actual conflicts over real things, like "You want to go to the library and you want to go swimming," and it is relatively productive. But that's really not what our main issue is here. It's deeper and harder to get a hold of.

We have the same problem at my house and it is overwhelming at times. Now both my kids have entered puberty (somewhat early) which makes me wonder if I was someone very evil in a former life.

I will freely admit I haven't read this book (who has time with all the squabbling?), but I own it, and it is highly recommended by all my counselor friends:

http://www.amazon.com/Siblings-Without-Rivalry-Children-Together/dp/0393342212

As for "no talking in the car," I consider that a safety issue.

Oops, I see that is not useful info.

Have you looked at The Explosive Child? (because you mentioned yelling and door-slamming):

http://www.amazon.ca/Explosive-Child-Fifth-Edition-Understanding/dp/0062270451

Our counselor recommended this because she thought the inflexibility fit my DD (although she doesn't have the explosiveness). I have read it - some of it was useful in terms of how I think about my children - ie in terms of problem-solving skills they've not yet developed. However much of the advice I find similar to Dr. Markham, so ...

My kids go after each other right now, similarly, and I don't really understand it either. I think it's developmental and asynchronous and environmental.

My DD is very upset bc I spend "all my time worrying" about DS. She has a point--except that I spend about twice as much time interacting with her. She is chatty, explosive and emotional and DS tends to withdraw.

I agree that having individual time with each child is really important, and that they know how valued and loved they are--but with some kids (like my DD) the bucket is never full.

Yes, I have The Explosive Child. (Can you tell I own a lot of parenting books??) It is VERY applicable to DD (actually, the book makes me feel better because she is not nearly as severe as many of the kids in the book...but you can definitely see similarities!) but I have not been able to implement the techniques consistently. It was useful as a "You're not crazy/there are other kids like yours" read.

When there are neurological quirks in play, that can change the game. Some children's hospitals run "sibshops" that help children ages 6-12 learn about their sibling's special needs and gather coping skills. (One should check content for appropriateness, of course.)

When the sibling is undiagnosed, it's harder to offer a handy label, but it can be important for everyone to realize "this is how your [sibling] is" and "this is what [sibling] needs" and "I will always try to make sure you both get what you need."

ultramarina, no useful advice right now, just hugs. DS10 and DD8 do a lot of this stuff. Drives me nuts.

I'm almost finished reading, "The Secrets of Happy Families," and I really like a lot of the ideas in it. You might check that out.

I'm not a fan of "Siblings without Rivalry," although I see it mentioned all the time whenever this comes up. It advocates letting kids figure it out on their own, and at one point said that parents should acknowledge and act as a sounding board for a child's very negative feelings about his sibs. I disagree with this advice because I don't want any of my kids to think I won't defend them if someone (even a sib) says something mean about them. -- Just my take.

I'll admit we haven't had a huge issue of sibling rivalry (twin boys and a girl), but I see this with my nephews. An observation I have about them is that their parents ignore their bad behavior until it's a crisis and then intervene with yelling and punishments. If it were me, I would stop it at the first bicker by asking them to speak kindly to each other. A big conversation we have had is, "Is this the kind of person you want to be?" "Are you the kind of person who would…."

I also think when bickering or mean behavior gets out of hand, it can be because there's not a clear manifesto, if you will, of who your family is and what you stand for. Can you get your kids to buy into/contribute to the idea that you're a family where you do.. (positive attributes) and where you support each other in attaining those goals?

When bad behavior strikes, I get a lot of mileage out of being shocked. I guess if it happens frequently, you can't really be shocked, but I have said things like, "Wow… I'm so surprised to see this because you're such a kind person. What makes you think that's OK?" I want my kids to think I know they're kind at their core and that bad behavior is not who they are-- seems like if I do that, they don't want to disappoint me.

And a final idea-- I read once that siblings who are friends as adults have memories of shared activities in their childhood, which creates a basis for their ongoing relationship. I think the book said the adults mostly don't remember momentary bad behavior, but do remember the good times camping or building legos, or whatever. So if you can create common interests with your kids, I think it will ultimately be OK.

We have talked about how DD has "big feelings" and how it's hard for him. He heartily agrees. It's interesting because he often seems very blase during her meltdowns and will remove himself, continue reading, go outside, whatever, but I know he's affected. Mind you, he is not a totally cool cucumber himself all the time, but if he loses it, it last 5 minutes, not 30.

I would agree with the advice to go to counseling... this is somewhat like the situation with my older sister and me - and if not dealt with, it only gets worse. In our case, it was special needs due to disability, not differing LOG - that fueled her jealousy - and her temperament tended to have her do all those negative behavior - yell, slam doors, sulk etc.

Also - make sure you know the peer groups your DD hangs out with. That was one of my parents' regrets - they did not move her out of what ultimately turned out to have been possibly toxic school environment, so her friends only fueled her negative behavior and anger.

My older sister's jealousy even got so bad that when she was 11 and my parents could only take my younger sister on a trip - my dad traveled a lot for work - the 11 year was determined to scare her 3 year old sister to the point that she refused to go to the water at the beach simply because she could not go on the trip.

She has a lot of issues stemming from all that today as an adult which is why we have no contact with her (thank goodness - I have no idea how she would have reacted if she ever got a whiff of the LOG of our kids but it would be ugly). She has not been able to develop the maturity and perspective that one tends to expect with adulthood so the rivalry is stronger than ever - but only in her mind since I don't bother talking to her nor really care that she is out of my life after the constant strife she dragged me through for so many years.

This is a good idea.


This is too shame-based for me. DD has a lot of shame already, which is partly her and partly a reaction to not-ideal parenting. Also, it's not shocking anymore, sadly. I do tell them they are kind people, etc.

I will say that the kids still do have fun together and enjoy each other rather often. I have seen families where there is none of this because the children inhabit very separate spheres, which ours do not. However, I am concerned, because the age difference is going to matter more very soon. DD is growing up. In fact, this could be a hidden but important factor.

Also, I would say that DD is probably somewhat jealous of DS, but DS instigates as well; they are both at fault. He is not by any means simply a victim of a jealous sister with emotional problems.

Both children have good peer relations with friends and at school. People who know them in isolation are often surprised to see how they are together.

Okay, I really think you are dealing with OEs and (mostly normal) jealousy and developmental asynchrony. I know you said it's "horrific" but I think I know what you really mean.

When they are close in age and very different temperamentally but also gifted (whew!) this is sorta inevitable. I don't think it's a LOG thing, either, but not sure (my kids are both about same ability level).

I suggest a lot of deep breathing. For all of you. The kids may very well end up being "besties" again after this period of differentiation.

Sorry for double post.

I would not use the character approach (shame based), either. I think maybe digging down into it via cognition might be helpful, as would broadening your kids' emotional awareness/ability to identify feelings/active work on coping skills.

That's my angle, at home, right now. We are an extremely intense bunch, the whole lotta us. It would be much easier if everyone would have the same emotions simultaneously (ha!).

Oh, I don't really have high blood pressure. It FEELS like I do when I listen to them, though! (as in, I feel my body reacting to their bickering) So in that sense, I am having a physical reaction.

I'm not totally resistant to family counseling, but without getting too far into this, we already have one member of the family in CBT, another member about to be evaluated this summer and likely treated, one more being watched for some other issues...family counseling is feeling like a bit much at the moment. I do feel it is bad, but it's hard for me to judge if it's way out there. I know families where kids are physically hitting each other and/or calling each other mean names, taking/destroying each others' stuff, etc. We don't have that here, but we do have a persistent atmosphere of negativity, unpleasant interactions, quickness to anger, and contentiousness.

ultramarina,

FWIW I agree with everything DeeDee posted above. I also wanted you to know that we went through a period of this two years ago with our dds and it was truly a phase. It happened here when my dds were 11 and 9 years old - they are 13 and 11 now, and I do believe a large part of it was due all the hormonal fluctuation due to going through puberty for my older dd.

I think one thing that's really important to remember is that each of our children are unique individuals, and they might grow up to have completely divergent interests, and that that is OK. They might not become friends who will play together all the time as kids or hang out enjoying the same activities as adults. That doesn't mean they won't share a close sibling bond, and it doesn't mean they will fight. My family does do things together, but we also let our kids pursue their own interests and activities (we have three very different personalities here). We expect and try our best to model good behavior and set behavioral expectations, but we don't expect our kids to play together - does that make sense? The thing that strikes me in your situation, personalities aside, is that your children are 4 years apart and different genders.. plus your dd is 11. Neither one of my dds has been very interested in anything there brother has ever enjoyed, and neither one was very interested in spending much time with a 7 year old boy when they were 11. That may sound horrible, but it's not - it's just a phase. My older dd now loves loves loves playing with the younger kids at school. If she had a younger brother, she'd probably love him to pieces *now*, but most likely not a few years ago lol. And even though she'd probably love him to pieces *now*, she'd want to do her own 13 year old things at home rather than hanging with her brother all the time.

I think it's really difficult to read tone on an internet posting, but when I read your posts they didn't come across to me as a situation that was severe enough to need counseling etc - it sounded like a mom frustrated with sibling behavior. I've so totally been there! For us it truly was a phase.

And the note about teachers/etc not noticing it - my children are angels outside of my house. I hear about that all the time. Sometimes I am convinced the teachers/coaches/whoever/ must be talking about someone else's children! They are sooooo not angels at home! Just remember - at home our kids can be themselves. In public they are trying their best to be accepted - and if they are behaving in public that means that the behavior lessons you are teaching them at home are working, it's just not apparent at home. That's all. At home they can let loose and act out and know that, at the end of the day and through it all, they are loved. They don't have that same security out in the real world. Soo.... they act out with the people who love them most and behave for the people who are truly incidental to their lives. Or at least my kids do. We have lots of deep talks at home about the irony of this

Hope some of that helps -

Best wishes,

polarbear

They unfortunately will do some of this (not to quite the extent) when with each other in public. I hesitate to send them to someone else's house together (they have some friends where this makes sense because the friends have a "matched pair" of sibs), which is too bad. I don't want another parent to have to referee this.

I definitely agree that they are allowed to have their own interests and not be together all the time. As I say...I think some of this may be related to DD pulling away as a natural consequence of her age. She is always allowed to decline him if he wants to play and their rooms are sacrosanct--if they want to be alone in there, I protect that space. DD just requested a lock for her door and I plan to get her one, although it makes me a little apprehensive. However...both are extroverts. So they have a tendency to drift into community space and interact even when I really encourage them to have down time/alone time. Also, though they are 4 years apart and different genders, DS is mature for age, DD is young for age, and nobody is very gender-typed here. They still have common ground, though it's diminishing. I admit, I'm sad about it. But I also recognize it as appropriate and inevitable.

I feel your pain. One line from report: when asked what she would change dd8 said dd14 does not her come into her room and closes her door. Now I have "Do you want to build a snowman stuck in my head! My brother and I are also 4 years apart and fought a lot at those ages. For us it was a phase. But, I feel sad about the current state of sibling relationships here. You aren't alone.

I sent you an IM, ultramarina. Let me just say that I sympathize. My kids are almost the same ages and are the same genders. It is hard to maintain a peaceful home, although our problems are a little different.

Sometimes we plan our days around separating DS8 and DD4. At their ages, the bickering isn't so intellectual and cynical, but they do get violent, and....I hear you of how intolerable it sometimes is, and how it feels it undermines my ow health.
Oddly, DD4 and DS2 are usually the best of friends, and whenever they do fight, it is short and quickly resolved. There is none of that relentless attacking. So it is a cake walk to just have the two little ones, or just have the two boys, but mix the two older ones...sigh.
I did ask the psychologist who specializes in testing gifted children for her opinion on this problem, and her take was that DS8 felt threatened by DD4 wanting to be his equal despite being so many years younger and not being at his level in anything, and that his contentiousness was part of his unfulfilled need for having real friends his own age. She suggested trying harder to have him spend time with congenial kids his own age and not rely on family providing companionship, which at the moment is sufficient for DD4 and DS2 (who do go to preschool and have activities and play dates, but who are just as happy to play together) but not for him. I do work hard at facilitating friendships but the few kids he really clicks with are busy, too, and have other activities and friends...we cannot just send him round to the neighbours or the playground or anything, it's always parents phoning to set something up, sometimes weeks In advance, and for some reason he is unable still to ask kids at school to play for himself. I also see that the unresolved tension from school (where he apparently is a model child) comes out not just in his interactions with his sister, but also with us (his fights with DH are like these bitter grown up spats you describe, and he's only 8) and his friends, and I, too, wonder about the atmosphere in school. Not that there is much I can do about it, as we really have no alternative but stay in this school through fourth grade, but I have hopes for the congregated gifted program in middle school, if only for the mental stimulation that he's craving and missing.

Well, this certainly rings a bell. I know DD feels threatened by DS for the same reasons (for instance, he is as agood or better than her at most games--she's no slouch, he beats us too--and also reads some of the same books), and also, DS, while socially skilled, has not found many true friends. It is NOT his fault. He is well liked and I am amazed by how I see him try to "be like" other 7yo boys because he has no other options. But...he wears the mask, IYKWIM. DD has a much better situation and has many good friends.

Actually, I watched him with school "buddies" at an event the other day where he didn't know I was there, and I was sad for him. He was faking it like a pro. But I could tell he was not really having fun. It was a little eerie.

Poor guy. That is tough. I hope that he is able to find a kindred spirit soon.

I hope so too.

At the same time, there is quite a lot to be said for "faking it till you make it." People learn to socialize with more different kinds of people by doing it. It's not always a good time (especially for brainy introverts, a book is generally more fun). But it is very good learning, and can actually become more fun the more you do it.

Five year difference between my two boys. At one point there was a bit of "he can't read that...it is my book and he is 5 years younger" (which sort of meant that if the "baby" could read it then he, the big boy, was reading "baby books"). That was a short lived phase because then he realized he had a built in confederate to discus his much beloved books and at a deep level (not like kids at school).

And really we have set limits with the younger with some of the dystopia genre books (no need to read that stuff at age 7 even if you can)...and what is a good limit if not to be broken (or bent), but I digress.

I will say that if you fast forward to age 10 and 15 there are good moments and bad moments but the good does rule mostly. And they do move on to separate lives with different stuff to do. I think it is hard to live with anyone for years and never bicker. For my two it is nice to have a brother who is an intellectual peer. And the love is there even if the 15 year old isn't as demonstrative anymore about it.

My younger brother (one year) and I fought like you couldn't imagine. He is PG and I am (don't know exactly but definitely) not-PG and we always were competing for the same things: Keys to the car, attention, prize, last piece of cake, whatever. But now as adults he is so quick to say how much he does love me. He turned out to be an awesome adult and I am lucky to have him.

I followed this whole topic with intense interest - mine are "perfect" out and about, but oh my gosh, so exhaustingly horrible at home sometimes. The car can be the worst place as they are smashed in there with nowhere to go. Our former psychologist recommended something that has worked very well for us (most of the time). The girls (10 and 11) have to "earn" something they desire, be it mommy reading at night, a special snack, etc. They have to "use nice tone, hands to self, use nice words" for only 30 minutes, and the reward immediately follows the 30 minute time period. They get only 2 warnings and then "so sorry", no treat or book, whatever. It's the 30 minutes and positive reward that does the trick. I had tried using rewards for a whole day of good behavior. Nope, too long. Short periods of time is the way to go.
Perhaps this can help others. Now I am on to post about something else!!!!

30 minutes...interesting. We have used longer-term reward systems, but nothing this short.

I agree that it's good to learn to socialize with many types of people, but at the end of the day, it can also be tiring and isolating. You need someone who "gets" you. I think we are still those people for DS. I hope things will be better next year when he moves to the gifted school, but he's not necessarily into typical gifted boy stuff.

Just wondering if dd is having issues outside the home you are not aware of? I have a friend whose Dd went through a similar stage and some of it was triggered by an unhealthy peer group at school.

If we're in the car and the kids start screaming, I pull over and tell them I'm not moving until they are done. I can't concentrate on my driving when they are screaming and hitting each other in the backseat. Usually they stop immediately and I say "So you're done?" and get back on the road. If they go at it again, I pull over again. I think if you're consistent about this, and consistent about separating them in other places (or having a consequence), they will get the message after a few days that the bickering and negativity is not going to be tolerated. I know that's not the main issue, though...you want them to stop feeling so negative about each other about everything and like each other.

DD is fine, I think. DS is more likely to be the one having issues at school. It's been a bit of an issue all year.

They don't generally scream in the car....while there is screaming sometimes, it's really more endless, pointless, annoying bickering that sucks the joy out of life. "Why did you smile like that?" "I didn't smile. You're imagining it." "I saw you look out the window and smile when Mom said that to me about having a lot of homework." "I can smile if I feel like smiling." "You're just gloating. You wait. You'll have all this homework one day, too." "Well, maybe I won't whine about it all the time like you do." "GOD! You are SO annoying!" "Stop calling me annoying! Mom says you can't call people that!" (Mom throws herself out the window of the vehicle)

Sorry, I know I shouldn't laugh. This too shall pass!

schadenfreude

Just wanted to chime in on one small issue. My mother used to tell me all the time when I was a small child that my older sister was special and had big feelings. Her tantrums and meltdowns were unbelievable at the time. I had the same big feelings, but learned from watching how her behavior pretty much destroyed every one around her. I had my own meltdowns and tantrums alone in my room so as not to burden anyone else. My parents were so out of energy from dealing with my sister that they just didn't notice.

I categorize meltdowns as when the person's brain essentially isn't present and they just can't take anymore vs tantrums having an element of manipulation.

Her behavior always resulted in attention, positive or negative, but it also resulted in my parents choosing or avoiding situations that may have led to her having a tantrum. As a parent now, I fully understand, but as a child whose older sibling didn't want to do some of the things I liked, at the time I felt like I was being shorted. I felt at the time she was getting all of my parents energy and that life and activity choices revolved around her.

All of this is to say, be sure that the needs of your younger DS are being met. My sister and I played beautifully together, but the sibling flare ups in our family were real, even though no one paid much attention to them.

The flare ups are likely due to your daughter's age and desire to feel more grown up. Please don't discount any frustration your son might have, particularly if he has to present a false front with his friends all day.

Thank you for some very wise words, SAHM. Having an exhausting, very high-needs first child, my mantra from the time of second pregnancy was "this one will not be short-changed, this one will not be short-changed" - but of course, she is, all the time. It's my constant battle with myself, and it needs regular reminders like yours of why I must keep at it.

It's easy to get in trouble when the sibling mix goes the other way too. I constantly see friends succumb to denying new, age-appropriate privileges and independence to their older child, because they wish to avoid the battle with the high-needs younger child who can't have it yet.

"But Mommy, it's not FAIR! Sibling X gets to...."

The whole "being fair does not mean treating you the same" thing can be so hard to live up to in real life. It's complicated, it's messy hard work, and there's a lot of short term pain for (hoped for!) long-term gain. You can see why treating everyone exactly the same in the name of equality and fairness is so seductive to schools...

"Principal, it's not FAIR! Kid X gets to..."

Sigh. Yes, I know what you mean, certainly. He puts up with a lot. One reason we make sure DD goes to sleepaway camp every year is so he can have a week at home with us where the focus is 100% on him.

I have sometimes wondered if he really "is" this way (much easier to parent) or if he figured out he just has to be this way for practical reasons.

I sometimes wonder how it all will be when she goes away to college and we have 4 years alone with him. It's hard to imagine now.

I think here we as parents are all doing the best we can. As long as we are doing our best to care for our children, that's all we can do. We will always second guess ourselves, because we care and want to improve.

As long as you love your kids, they are not getting shortchanged. If you care enough to be on this forum looking for ways to improve their lives, chances are they are really really lucky to have you. (Even if it doesn't always feel that way...)

Wanted to update on this. I had time to sit them both down for a family meeting this weekend. It was eye opening and powerful. They both talked about what the other sib was doing that upset them and what they themselves might be doing that would aggravate the other. Apparently, DS is triggering DD by using a superior tone and attitude at certain times (I seriously hadn't noticed this, but he totally copped to it) and they both are annoying the heck out of each other by inserting themselves into parental discipline of the other (THIS I know about!) The issue of DD not wanting to play and DS feeling alone came up almost right away, with tears flowing on both sides. Wow...it was intense. I can say it was a profound moment for everyone. They have been able to play together for longer than many children with their age gap, which is lovely. But all of us except, I think, DS, knew this day was coming. They talked about it honestly and I think the reality is something DS is going to continue to have a hard time with, but amazingly the rest of the day was very harmonious. I think that is the core of all of this. Wow.

Sounds like a great start! Did you all talk about what you wanted to change, exactly, and how you might do that? Can your DS start having friends over more often or otherwise feel less lonely?

Yes, they both talked about some habits they need to change. Today was good, too! DS should have a lot more friends next year, or I hope so, anyway.

We do 20 minutes and they still struggle! It really does help, though.

I hope he finds his tribe soon.