Hello all,

My 8 YO has been playing piano for the last three years, practicing every day and progressing well with her talented piano teacher. She performs once a year at recital. Apart from performing once a year for audience, she doesn't get many opportunities to perform. The school has talent show, but they decided to give performance chance to older grades (as there are many students playing piano)/ In our area, youth orchestra doesn't audition for piano as well.

Do you have any ideas of creating opportunities for her?

Should we add/switch to another instrument to get better chance to shine?

I think it really depends what your/her goals are- what do you mean by "shine?"

I don't know much about competitive piano, but I do know lots of kids around here play in competitions; some travel for it, some of these competitions have cash prizes, etc. It sounds like it could keep one quite busy if one chose that route. I expect your teacher would know more. (Have you asked the teacher's opinion, by the way?).

Some kids here accompany the choral groups/choirs in school. They also are sometimes asked to serve as accompanists for students performing in solo festivals and similar small performances. (However, this is generally at the middle school level, I don't know about students as young as your DD). You could also contact the school music department to see if there are students interested in working in a small ensemble. Our school jazz groups usually have a couple of piano students playing with them (here that is a pretty competitive position, though, through auditions). Some kids play, either through their private teachers or I believe through their own arrangements, in local bookstores, museums/galleries, nursing homes, etc. (I suspect some of these are arranged to fulfill some sort of community service requirements, but some are surely to gain performance experience). Also, I would look ahead in the school/community; she is only 8- will there be more opportunities she is interested in as she gets older?

I think adding a second instrument is wonderful; piano can make that second instrument much easier to learn, but again, it really depends on your DD's goals.

ETA- forgot to mention solo festivals- I think these opportunities vary a lot by region, so you may need to look around for information; here they are primarily run through the schools. These festivals are a great opportunity, and as they get older, most kids here are expected to participate if they are in the school music program. Basically, one prepares and plays a graded/leveled solo for a judge. The kids gets specific, written feedback, and usually a number grade as well (one can ask for ungraded evaluations, too). At older levels, some of these performances are used as auditions for regional performance groups (all state-type stuff).

Have you considered having her perform for those in a nursing home? What about a special song at Christmas if you worship somewhere?

Does she want to perform?

Does she want to try another instrument?

I think it is good to perform to get used to it (so she won't be as nervous later) and it is also good to try another instrument (when does band/orchestra start in your schools?) but also, she has plenty of time for that later.

I would also ask if she wants to perform more? If not, it's really not a big deal. Plenty of people enjoy playing piano just for themselves. If she wants more performances, I think the first thing is to talk to her teacher and see what opportunities she is aware of locally. Maybe the teacher can host more recitals if a number of her students want this; maybe there are local festivals or joint recitals by a few piano teachers; maybe your child can enter exams/competitions etc. Playing at nursing homes is a great ideas almost in any community. There are lots of opportunities if you explore.

Children's hospitals are good too

I agree with talking to her piano teacher. If the teacher is a member of your states Music Teacher's Association there are more opportunities. My DS6 has been playing for almost a year and is progressing rapidly. His teacher totally understands him (she's a very gifted musician and plays multiple instruments) and had him in his first competition this last winter (which he won his division ) and he will be doing a Piano Exam this weekend. I highly recommend the Piano Exam. He will be tested in a variety of areas in piano theory and has to play 3 pieces. It has been very hard! Your DD8 might enjoy the technical challenge! It's been amazing for my son who has not been challenged in school this year and he truly loves it! It's been very empowering for him.

Also, our state piano competition is based on age, not ability. This is why his teacher signed him up for the Piano Exam. There are no age restrictions so your daughter can compete at whatever level she is at. My son thinks this is very cool!

I also agree with a second instrument if she's interested. Or, get a keyboard and she can start a band with some friends! Does she like to perform? She could also try recording and writing her own music at home. My son loves to compose and we purchased an inexpensive recording device and he can now burn his own cd's. He's going to work on mixing in Garage Band this summer. Good luck!

Thank you all for great suggestions.

My DD8 likes to perform. When the school decided to accept only higher grades for talent show, she got upset a bit. That's why I am looking into opportunities for her. I will look into opportunities at nursing homes and children's hospital.

Solo festivals sound very interesting, I will do some research on that that. I hope we have it in WA.

As far as teacher, our teacher is an older teacher who teaches at her home. She doesn't do any Piano Exams. She suggested my daughter to try PAFE competition next year. She is a great teacher, but at some point, it might makes sense to move to a music school where there are Piano Exams and more chances to perform etc.

As far as goals, I would like her take advantage of her music skills when she applies for college. Playing at home and once a year at recital won't add much to her application especially when piano is a very common instrument. I might be overthinking here :-)

And one more thing about additional instrument. She is very social kid. I feel playing at a youth orchestra might be exciting for her. Piano is very competitive and not many opening in the orchestra for piano. In the long term, it might be again limiting.

Hi, Leyla,

You're definitely thinking about the right things. Piano is great, but it can be lonely. The piano competitions are great for developing skills, focusing, performing, and dealing with nerves, and a win always has resume value. But my dc (who has kept up with piano, including competitions) really enjoys playing an orchestra instrument too for the social aspect. There are also different musical conventions: there's less memorization, so it's less stressful on that front too.

Perhaps people have different suggestions for instruments, but here's our experience. Bassoon and French horn are always in demand, and oboe generally too. These are all hard instruments, but they're rewarding. Oboes are expensive (a good one is $11K new, $8K used). You won't have to spend that till your dc is serious, though. Oboe study at a high level requires reed-making (bassoon too), which is essentially a woodworking skill, very difficult.

Brass players generally are in demand in youth orchestras -- so not just French horn but trumpet, tuba, etc.

I am not sure where to find it but a friend of my daughter did chamber music groups for years. These were small groups of kids of varying ages that would practice together and then showcase them. The groups were all different groups of instruments. They were introduced to it from their music teacher so I have no idea where to look for this.

Do you have school or youth orchestra's, choirs or band in your area? As long as she isn't stressed for time adding another instrument or joining a choir can be a good way to add performance time. And probably be easier to find a group that performs often. How about summer camps? My son attended a jazz camp for a few years and they had pianists in their small groups. The camp was only for junior high kids and older though.

If you are really want your daughter to have something to put on collage apps she should look into the Piano Exams. (It's really young to really worry about college apps yet.) Maybe it's time to look at a different piano teacher? It sounds like you like her piano teacher, but if your daughter really wants to perform more perhaps she had grown out of this teacher and she isn't the best fit for her needs.

I suggest the National Piano Guild Auditions - you can find a local piano school that conducts this exam and enroll your child in it. The guild sends a judge who is a very very experienced music teacher (ours this year was a college professor in piano with a ton of experience) and your child will audition their pieces for the judge and the judge will review every aspect of the music with the child and give advise and comments on how to improve as a musician and pianist. It is non-competitive and highly valuable to a budding pianist.

GF2 - I will talk to her about which one she would like to learn. I feel it's time to add another instrument at least. Also, what are your thoughts about flute?

Bluemagic - will look into chamber music groups, it's something my daughter will be very interested in. As far as our teacher, we really like her, but feel like we will need to switch in the longer term for additional things ie. more performance opportunities, competitions, participating in festivals etc.

Ashley - I believe our teacher was doing National Piano Guild Auditions, but not anymore. I will bring it up to her to see if she can at least add it next year.

Chamber music is a great idea!

I wonder whether someone else could offer input on flute. There seems to be a greater supply of flute players in the orchestra context, but as with any instrument, a good player is always valuable. But it isn't an instrument with which we have direct experience. Also, it probably isn't good to choose an instrument solely for its scarcity; a young player can end up in a cohort with lots of oboes and few cellos, for instance!

If you really want your DD to shine, regular misting with water can help.

If your DD is practicing piano regularly, making progress, and seems to enjoy what she's doing... where's the problem?

More importantly... what does your DD say about the situation?

Agree with GF2, in that you should not choose based on perceived scarcity- our school currently has a glut of bassoons and oboes, and a healthy horn population; they seem to be trendy at the moment. Much better to choose an instrument that speaks to you (your DD) and excel at it because you love it.

Can she try out/listen to some various instruments? If your school has a music program that is often how they start. You can also usually do this in a good music store or rental place, and many symphonies offer "instrument petting zoos" where she could get a feel for different things.

As an aside, one thing to consider is what type of music she is interested in. Things like flute, clarinet, and trombone are all nice because they can play in moats types of ensemble, from chamber to jazz to marching, etc.

Another thought is that at 8, she may not be big enough (hand size is important for bassoon, for example, general size and arm length for trombone) to play anything she chooses.

If you mean the possibility of applying to music conservatories, I'd say, again, talk with the teacher. You will want to eventually send your child to a teacher who has had experience preparing kids for conservatories. But at this age it's probably too early. If you mean resume padding, well, it may or may not work, and your child may or may not want to do it...

Thank you all so much for valuable information and pointers of things to look into :-) It has been very helpful.

Leyla, it's still not completely clear what your goals are-- or what your child's goals might be. I'd offer specific advice on that basis, but don't feel that I have a good handle on what you're asking about. So instead, I'll offer advice to my ten-years-ago self, instead.

Okay, I have a 14yo graduating senior in high school, who was, at your child's age, quite similar, it sounds. She was motivated and clearly gifted at piano, and chafing for more performance time (or so it seemed).

She lost interest as difficulty increased in the classical and baroque repertoire (which her teacher specializes in)-- her progress wasn't as rapid and for that reason, the rewards were slower in coming, providing her with less motivation. She also was NOT interested in piano competitions.


We have offered other instruments over the years, because yes, piano is inherently not as good an "ensemble" instrument as some others. However, she's never seriously wanted to quit, either, and she loves to use the piano as a means of coping with emotional intensity.

She simply likes a different style of music than what she has needed in order to hone technique.

All of that to say that I'd have been worried about possible conservatory work at 8yo, too, and in the end, she didn't really use it to "pad" her college resume in the least, has done no competitions, and simply ENJOYS playing-- for herself. That's enough, in our opinion, and we feel that she is likely to continue playing, which was our ultimate goal.

Some ideas to make playing more interesting/exciting:

* nursing home/etc, in the community, as others have noted

* musical theater? If you have community theater, special children's events, etc, this could be a GREAT way to expand into 20th century popular music and more improvisational work.

* composing?

* Recording-- put up a YouTube channel!

As for other instruments... what does your child have INTEREST in? What musical genres? Those are considerations. I would say that flute is best for chamber ensemble work in folk or classical genres, but not a lot else outside of symphonic and marching band work. It kind of bites as a jazz, pop, world, or 'social' instrument, truth be told. I enjoyed marching band a ton, but not enough to keep doing it in college.

Personally, unless my child WANTED to play the oboe, I wouldn't do it. I know no fewer than five parents who have specifically got their kids studying oboe right now-- all of them in high school-- for the express purpose of pursuing a "good scholarship" instrument. {sigh} Only one of those kids is doing it because they simply LOVE the instrument.

My personal list of less-common but still extremely useful and versatile small instruments includes:

viola
baritone saxophone
alto saxophone
English Horn
recorder (for students with interests in traditional/early music)
clarinet (way less common than it used to be!!)
trombone (but getting large for smaller kids)
accordion (yes, really)
percussion of various types
classical guitar

Also-- don't overlook the other related-to-piano instruments-- chimes, marimba, xylophone, harp, etc.

I'd see what she prefers to listen to and enjoys AS MUSIC, because that will govern so much more of her willingness to practice and tackle difficulty as she grows older. If I knew then what I know now, I'd have had DD play an instrument other than piano, because she really doesn't like LISTENING to piano. She likes listening to plucked string instruments, or reed instruments.

With a child this age, as others have said, you also have to consider genetic potential (as well as current) physiology.

Practicing is ideally NOT hard work-- because physiologically, it should be natural to develop good technique just by working WITH your own body-- and subsequently, more or less effortless to practice good technique and ergonomics. That's the kind of instrument-match that I think is ideal for kids, truthfully. Different kids, different instruments.

My daughter showed real interest in the piano and we were pushed by a high level Russian method school to start her at lessons before she was 3.5 but we didn't and then they pushed again around her 4th bday and we thought we should so we started. She participated in a concert at 5 and again at 7 and was slated to do the American protoge competition at 8 but she hit the wall and started to hate the piano. I backed off, got another teacher for a year, who wanted to push, so I found another, a jazz musician and he it taking a totally different approach and now she is seriously composing and finding her love of music again. I tell this story because doing piano or violin or cello at a high level requires serious commitment these days. There are too many parents pushing. Her friend, who plays the violin practices at least 2 hours a day weekedays, 4-5 hours weekend days. Plus she takes piano lessons on the side. And she is not good enough for American Protoge, which is the level you kind of need for Ivys to be impressed these days.
I recommend the harp. It is a different type of instrument but expensive.
If your daughter really likes it, then I think you should consider a better school and get her evaluated. Perfect pitch, etc to see how much she wants it and wants to apply herself.
We pushed in the beginning because we thought we should but she didn't love it enough. In hindsight, DD likes the fact she did those concerts but doesn't want to go back to it. But she will sit and work on compositions now, going over chords, writing the notes. So in the long run it worked.
Also, a good school will allow recitals all the time. DD's Russian school had a recital you join every Sunday afternoon. 10 kids would play any Sunday and so each time you mastered a couple of pieces, you could go play them for an audience. It was a good way before moving on.

Thanks Wren for sharing your experience. Given the amount of practice/dedication of other parents (which I respect a lot), I don't know if DD8 has any chance in American protégé(which is totally fine to us). She practices willingly everyday but her practice is around 45 mins. She doesn't even have more time than that to practice. She is in full time gifted program and it itself keeps her quite busy. Given for her love of piano, I guess we will keep it as it is currently (no pushing her). Maybe we will switch to a music school so she has more opportunities to perform.

I will also look into harp. The only thing with the harp it being very heavy. I wonder if it's limiting because of that to join to school band etc. We will listen together and she will see if she prefers harp.

Yesterday, I showed her recording of different instruments and she was interested in viola. Maybe She will try it in summer to see if she likes to learn.

HowlerKarma - Thanks so much for taking time to write. You always give great suggestions. As far as goals, let me try to list (writing clearly is not my strong area, maybe listing can help :-)) So here it is:
1. Find DD opportunities to play piano for audience (short term goal). She likes to perform to audience and once a year is not enough for her. Got great recommendations about this one here and will look into each one.
2. Find ways to measure her progress. Playing piano is not enough information for later, playing piano in X level is better information. This is a longer term goal. I am hoping this is going to be used somewhere in college application to list her skills vs. It is why I am after something measurable. (Maybe I am overthinking here :-))
3. She is interested in music and interested in adding a second instrument, so the goal is finding a second instrument that she will like to practice and give her better chance to participate in orchestras/bands or so.

Hope it's clear now :-)

HK makes great suggestions, as always!

Leyla, you might have a look at the Royal Conservatory program here: http://www.musicdevelopmentprogram.org/teacher-directory

It is a system of testing/measurement that is nationwide in the US and Canada (I think). One of my dc's piano teachers was very interested in this, but we moved before she took it up. The site has a list of participating teachers. One of the features I like is that the program not only has annual (or perhaps semiannual) juries for performance testing, but it also requires a theory test.

The way in which DD ultimately found piano to "impress" come college time was the number of years at the activity, quite honestly. There's a lot to be said for a decade or more of sustained study like that, and college ad-coms seem to know it. It speaks of a genuine commitment, not window dressing, if that makes sense.

EVERYONE knows that piano or violin is a very common instrument choice-- so sticking with it (over the latest "hot ticket" scholarship sure-thing, whatever that looks like in middle school) says something about the student when they are teens.

DD was probably ready to give up formal lessons last fall, but we all agreed that there were some great reasons to sustain them through until she graduated from high school. Her heart hasn't truly been in it; we all know that. But it's the task commitment that's important at this point.

It sounds like you have a great understanding of what your daughter's interests and needs are, Leyla! Good luck.

HK, could you please let me know how you documented the decade of sustained study of the piano for college admissions? Was it through a letter from her teacher? Or did you have cerificates from exams taken over the years?

The thing is-- nobody is checking up on your claims (at least not that we're aware of, anyway).

Basically, you just list it as an extracurricular in with the rest of it. It's not that big a deal, honestly.

I could have gotten a letter from her teacher, of course-- and if someone has checked into the veracity of the claim, we certainly don't know about it... and I suppose that there probably ARE candidates that claim a dozen years of viola or something, without any basis for it. At least so far, your word that you've done it seems to be enough; there is surprisingly little "documentation" required to "prove" claims made on college applications. The only deterrent to lying egregiously seems to be the idea that if you get caught, you'll have massively torpedoed your chances of admission anywhere but the local community college.

For MIT, I think that she had to provide contact information for all of her listed extracurriculars; she gave her teacher's name, studio address, and phone number.

Realize that this wasn't anything like a major 'hook' for DD, though-- it was just part of her personal landscape, like a regular long-standing community service gig that she also listed. She had probably four other activities that were as long-running and significant. Music is just part of the big picture for her.

Thank you, HK!

Thank you all :-)

Leyla, I think your approach is very sensible. If my DD wanted to focus on music, I don't think I'd ever be comfortable with that idea until she is in college. Even then, I'd try to encourage her to not put all her eggs in one basket especially if that basket is music, art, dance, etc.

There are very few opportunities for kids to compete/perform in our area. The very talented kids from DD's school often busk for the performance experience. There's no pressure, it's good practise and they get to earn their performance chops. We have a 7 yo & 11 yo who take their keyboards to the local mall once a month for 2 hours (with parents of course) - maybe that could scratch an itch.
Otherwise, if she has the physical development for it then brass would be my suggestion. Then she can do jazz, pop, orchestra etc so much more in demand.

DS6 has been learning violin for a few years (at his insistence) because he loves classical music. He desperately wanted to learn piano at school last year (I suspect partly the excitement of skipping out of class for 1/2 hour had something to do with it). Having 2 instruments has been great though as there is some cross-over but also differences. He will do his 2nd grade exam in violin soon and does theory and more 'technical' stuff with that teacher, piano he tends to play for enjoyment, informal recitals at school, and for the challenge of working out the last song in the book when he is nowhere near that... Down the track he can join an orchestra if he wishes(invited already, usually starts gr 5) which may give him access to a different group of older peers. Apart from his enjoyment, music is the only thing he has to put in some effort with and it has been great (albeit taxing at times) in helping with perfectionism.

My 10 year old dd has been taking piano since she was 5 in kindergarten. She has participated annually in the National Piano Guild auditions since then and also plays at a number of festivals and local recitals throughout the year. Lately she has developed an interest in jazz and hopes to join the jazz band when she starts MS in the fall. In last few months she was expressing that she was tired of playing and wanted to quit.... I will not force her to continue but am hoping she will want to keep going with it because she enjoys it..otherwise there is no point really. She is quite talented, but not mature enough to see the long-term.

If your daughter is enjoying lessons and practicing diligently then just keep supporting her!