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Posted By: Bostonian College debate - 04/18/14 08:08 PM
This article surprised me. If you go to a tournament where you are supposed to debate X, and you decide you want to talk about unrelated issue Y, you should automatically lose. But nowadays you can win. Some people in academia do not respect rational argument.

http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...debate-reinforce-white-privilege/360746/
Does Traditional College Debate Reinforce White Privilege?
JESSICA CAREW KRAFT
The Atlantic
APRIL 16 2014, 12:06 PM ET

Quote
It used to be that if you went to a college-level debate tournament, the students you’d see would be bookish future lawyers from elite universities, most of them white. In matching navy blazers, they’d recite academic arguments for and against various government policies. It was tame, predictable, and, frankly, boring.

No more.

These days, an increasingly diverse group of participants has transformed debate competitions, mounting challenges to traditional form and content by incorporating personal experience, performance, and radical politics. These “alternative-style” debaters have achieved success, too, taking top honors at national collegiate tournaments over the past few years.

But this transformation has also sparked a difficult, often painful controversy for a community that prides itself on handling volatile topics.

On March 24, 2014 at the Cross Examination Debate Association (CEDA) Championships at Indiana University, two Towson University students, Ameena Ruffin and Korey Johnson, became the first African-American women to win a national college debate tournament, for which the resolution asked whether the U.S. president’s war powers should be restricted. Rather than address the resolution straight on, Ruffin and Johnson, along with other teams of African-Americans, attacked its premise. The more pressing issue, they argued, is how the U.S. government is at war with poor black communities.

...
Posted By: Dude Re: College debate - 04/18/14 08:35 PM
I would say that their style reflects the reality of "debate" as it currently exists in public discourse. If college is supposed to prepare you for life, they're doing the right thing by rewarding students for ignoring the topic at hand, substituting anecdata for actual data, disrespecting rules and limits, and utilizing performance art. In the real world, anyone who debates using formal techniques has already lost the argument.
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: College debate - 04/18/14 09:18 PM
How depressing, Dude.

I fear that you are correct, however. frown
Posted By: puffin Re: College debate - 04/18/14 10:19 PM
Except for the obscenities it will prepare them admirably for NZ politics. But that is not the purpose of a debate and if they do not stick to the rules they are arguing not debating the same as if you use your hands you are not playing soccer.

If people are keen I would go for one tournament with two categories - traditional and modern. If they end up split along racial lines well so are a lot of sports competitions.

I do think it is ludricrous to suggest afroamericans can't follow debate rules though.
Posted By: Val Re: College debate - 04/19/14 01:48 AM
Yikes. I was a member of one of the debating societies in college, and if you didn't stick to the point or follow procedure, people would jump up and shout "point of order!" or "point of information/misrepresentation!" These statements could come from the audience as well as people actively debating.

There is no way that a side would have been able to get away with an argument that didn't address the point. They would have lost and never been invited back again. But as Dude and HK have said, none of that seems to matter these days. frown
Posted By: Bostonian Re: College debate - 04/19/14 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by puffin
If people are keen I would go for one tournament with two categories - traditional and modern. If they end up split along racial lines well so are a lot of sports competitions.
Some people had a related idea but abandoned it under pressure:
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To counter this trend, Hardy and his allies want to create a “policy only” space in which traditional standards for debate will be enforced. However, this is nearly impossible to do within the two major debate associations, CEDA and the National Debate Tournament (NDT), as they are governed by participants and have few conduct enforcement mechanisms. [...]

14 schools expressed interest in sending debaters to Hardy’s proposed alternative tournament, scheduled to occur last month. But after word got out that a group of mostly white teams from elite universities were trying to form their own league, Hardy and his supporters were widely attacked on Facebook and other online forums. Ultimately the competition didn’t happen, purportedly because of logistical issues with the hotel venue. Nonetheless, Hardy wrote in an email that a “toxic climate” has precluded even “strong supporters of ‘policy debate’ from “publicly attach[ing] their name to anything that might get them called racist or worse.”
Posted By: madeinuk Re: College debate - 04/19/14 10:55 AM
I had to re-check the publication date ( nah, not April 1st) and whether or not I was reading an Onion article. Words fail me...
Posted By: indigo Re: College debate - 04/19/14 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by puffin
I do think it is ludricrous to suggest afroamericans can't follow debate rules though.
Some may say that a select group CHOSE not to follow the rules, and this ought not to reflect on all persons who share an ethnicity. This group seemed to find it more beneficial to act outside of the established, accepted practices. There is an adage, "What you reward, you get more of." The throwing of chairs and other disorderly behaviors described in the article revealed a lot about the content of their character. The described behaviors may not only violate debate policy but may violate several civil and criminal laws as well.

Quote
But that is not the purpose of a debate and if they do not stick to the rules they are arguing not debating the same as if you use your hands you are not playing soccer.
Well said.
Posted By: madeinuk Re: College debate - 04/19/14 01:49 PM
What's next, cold cocking your opponent during a chess game and being declared the winner?
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: College debate - 04/19/14 02:36 PM
There's no doubt that this constitutes "breaking" the game you don't feel like playing, however. wink

Of course, that didn't work out so well for Tonya Harding, last I checked.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: College debate - 04/19/14 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
There's no doubt that this constitutes "breaking" the game you don't feel like playing, however. wink

Of course, that didn't work out so well for Tonya Harding, last I checked.

No, they are winning, so it's not really a good example of nihilism.

They are clearly breaking the rules to win the game, which is quite different from breaking the game to make sure that it can't be played.
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: College debate - 04/20/14 03:34 PM
In a larger sense, though-- no rules, no game.
Posted By: madeinuk Re: College debate - 04/21/14 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
There's no doubt that this constitutes "breaking" the game you don't feel like playing, however. wink

Of course, that didn't work out so well for Tonya Harding, last I checked.

No, they are winning, so it's not really a good example of nihilism.

They are clearly breaking the rules to win the game, which is quite different from breaking the game to make sure that it can't be played.

They are clearly breaking the rules, period. They should have been disqualified.

You cannot blame them for trying as they obviously lacked the skills needed to win by the rules but I do blame the judges for allowing these blatant breaches of the rules to prevail.
Posted By: HadwinFire Re: College debate - 04/21/14 07:48 AM
The purpose of a debate and if they do not stick to the rules they are arguing not debating the same as if you use your hands you are not playing soccer.
Posted By: Dandy Re: College debate - 04/21/14 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by Article's Comment Section
BTW tennis is clearly racist. Arthur Ashe and Yannick Noah would have won a lot more tournaments had they been allowed to arbitrarily move the lines on the court
That story is amazing.

I, of honky heritage, attended an inner-city high school where I was definitely a minority. Our debate team -- reflecting the school's racial make-up -- performed quite well, including making it to State one year.

I don't recall a single n-bomb or f-bomb even being contemplated, let alone utilized during competition. And no chair throwing, either.

Guess we weren't "alternatively stylistic" back in the day.

Here's a sample from CEDA 2013:


And here's a point wherein one of Aff speakers criticizes the Neg team for failing to remember their respective roles and responsibilities in the debate format. Or something to that effect.

(Not particularly safe for work... or tender ears, but certainly exemplifies what is discussed in the OP article.)
Posted By: JonLaw Re: College debate - 04/21/14 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
In a larger sense, though-- no rules, no game.

Well, there are basic rules that arise from basic human nature, biology, and physics.
Posted By: ultramarina Re: College debate - 04/21/14 02:05 PM
I think this story is missing a lot of information. Let's look carefully at the bit about the chair-throwing:

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Hardy and others are also disappointed with what they perceive as a lack of civility and decorum at recent competitions, and believe that the alternative-style debaters have contributed to this environment. “Judges have been very angry, coaches have screamed and yelled. People have given profanity-laced tirades, thrown furniture, and both sides of the ideological divide have used racial slurs,” he said.

"People" have done these things. What people? Hardy believes that the debaters have "contributed to this environment." That could mean that people got mad about the alternative debaters and they were the ones throwing chairs at THEM.

I have the feeling this is a long, complicated, interesting story that merits a feature-length piece. This isn't it.
Posted By: Questions202 Re: College debate - 04/21/14 02:29 PM
I agree. I was a high school CX debater. When I was participating, if you wanted a polite, well-reasoned debate, you did Lincoln Douglas. If you wanted a creative, high-stakes battle where random ideas hit you in the face and forced you to think crazy, random thoughts creatively on your feet and then find some evidence for them even faster, you went CX. We had workshops on speaking and reading quickly. That was absolutely the most important skill you could have. It didn't matter what you were saying, you just needed to say it fast.

I was in it for the disadvantages and counterplans. It was fun to get as creative as you could. If you could come up with a good counterplan or disad that would lead to nuclear war and nobody had evidence against it, you could win a tournament. Not always. Some judges frowned on that unless it was very creative and made some kind of sense. And not more than a tournament, because by the next tournament everyone would be prepared to take you down. But you could win a tournament.

I don't know the trends in CX debate now, but it hasn't been about the policy in a really long time.

Edited to say Wikipedia actually has a good description of how the game is played. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_debate. Kritiks did not exist when I was involved, but everything else did. It can sound very odd and incomprehensible to people who haven't participated, but that's the game.
Posted By: Nautigal Re: College debate - 04/21/14 04:48 PM
I'm sad to hear that debate has turned into politician-speak, but that's what it sounds like -- instead of answering the question, turn it around and talk about your own subject.

I was a debater in high school, and a debate judge after, and this breaks my heart.
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