I have finally arrived at the point where I need to figure out recommendations/suggestions for DS for math the last quarter. Even as much as we have been stretching it out, it is unlikely that the last 10% of the Algebra I course will last beyond the third quarter. (DS takes an online algebra course through the school district and also has access to a live teacher one day a week (most weeks) because he is still in elementary (5th). I am thinking independent study with one of the AOPS books (not Algebra II or Geometry but maybe Counting or . . .) along with Alcumus. I am also considering programming but it may not pass the bureaucratic hurdles if it is not even technically math.

Anyhow, that isn't why I am disturbed. As a result of the above-described situation, I did research into our district's mathematics program to ascertain the courses/curriculums, particularly in view of pending changes some administrator had warned me about previously. Starting with next year, GT Geometry precedes GT Algebra II. There is nothing inherently wrong with sandwiching Geomety between the two years of Algebra and that is in fact the traditional sequence for non-GT and non-Honors math. However, both my own school district and DS' school district (thousands of miles and decades apart) have always placed Geometry after Algebra II for GT students. I believe one of the compelling reasons (when I was in school) is because trigonometry, which is combined with Geometry into a one-year course, is considered more difficulty than Algebra II. One of my concern is how painful it will be for GT students to have to spend a whole school year on just Geometry. Does anyone have experience with a decent GT geometry course that spans a whole year? Furthermore, Pre-Calculus is also a whole year (two semester) course instead of one semester when I took it. I can see how that can stretch to a year if they throw in trigonmetry and probably some stuff that were formerly covered in Algebra II so that may not be too bad. However, AP Calculus AB is now also a whole year as oppose to one semester when I took it. I suppose it is possible that they are taking some of the material from AP Calculus BC (the following year) and teaching it in Calculus AB, but in that case there will be less material to teach in Calculus BC. In any case, this is definitely watering down of the curriculum and I can't see how it would serve the high ability population. I also don't see Differential Equations and Linear Algebra in the flow-chart, but it may be that they just don't want to advertise it. That last point I am less worried about because by that time there should still be dual enrollment and I imagine that on-line options would be more and not less acceptable.

I am tempted to blame it on our district's implementation of Common Core, but whatever the impetus, the result is disturbing.

My district places Geometry between Algebra & Algebra II even for the "honors" versions. And this was the path I remember from both high schools I attended. Trigonometry was introduced a bit in Geometry (just one chapter), there will be more two more chapters of Trig this year at the end of Algebra II. And then my understanding more Trig is taught in Pre-Calc.

My son's H. Geometry class was a year course taught in in junior high but supposed to be as rigorous as the Honors High School course. I could look up what text was used, my son's Algebra II book is Prentice Hall. I honestly don't remember what particular subjects they covered, as my son asked for & needed no help. There is NO problem finding enough material for an honors Geometry math class. For one my DD who took "regular" Geometry was never asked to write any proofs, while my son in Honors did a LOT of proofs.

My son did some Linear Algebra this past fall the first quarter of Algebra II.

My understanding is one takes EITHER AP Calc AB OR AP Calc BC. That is the way it was when I was in high school, and the way it is currently in my son's high school. Although that might change as the AP tests are undergoing quite a lot of overhaul.

So it really depends on what texts they use and how they break it up. As far as I always new the "normal" high school sequence was always Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, Pre-Calculus. And IF you took Algebra before H.S. then you can get to AB or BC Calc. And at our H.S. if you finished that ahead there aren't any more advanced classes, they recommend AP Stats or AP Computer Science.

BTW I have also hear of Integrated H.S. Math I, II && III that take all these subjects and mixed them up. A bit of algebra & geometry all three years. This makes more sense to me but I haven't seen the details of it's implementation. It is hard to change the traditional Algebra, Geometry, Algebra II model. But there is a lot of math that would be helpful to kids that don't fit strictly into "Algebra", such as probability that can be better.

In my state the only math REQUIRED to gradate from H.S. is two years of math class and mastery of Algebra I. For the kids that struggle in math, they often now take a 2 year Algebra I sequence and never get Geometry. And even most universities only require math at the Algebra II level for general entrance.

Yes-- see my recent rant up in resources re: the second semester of Precalc.

BTW, first semester Precalc was mostly review of previous topics from geometry and algebra II, with a few new things and some linear algebra thrown in.

Semester II is pretty hard-core trigonometry. It's college level, for sure.



In my state, anyway, the year of Pre-calc following the Alg1, Geometry, Alg2 sequence is the equivalent of Math 111 (College Algebra) and Math 112 (Trig + analytic geometry).


HTH.

FWIW, my GATE high school offered an entire year of geometry for 9th graders: one semester proof-based geometry (proofs every night, I loved it!), and one of coordinate geometry. (It was assumed that if you were going to this school, you had already taken algebra I). (Take this info as you will, as it is a couple of decades old. But just know that they managed to fill out an entire year of geometry and make it rigorous and interesting).

And as an aside, there was also a separate track of math classes, like bluemagic mentioned; kids were randomly assigned to one track or the other. Luckily I was in the first track, since my family moved after my sophomore year. So, it's not a new concept, but I don't know how successful it was.

Yep - the devil is in the details. DS' GT Pre-Algebra course actually had a unit on trigonometry and many units on Geometry. They have finally renamed the course "Transistion Math," which makes a lot more sense than Pre-Algebra. In my day, we had a separate trigonometry textbook that was covered in full all at once the same year as the Geometry textbook. I think that was why the Pre-Calculus course couldn't be stretched beyond the one semester and they crammed AP Calculus AB into the second semester of that same year.

I agree that the textbook makes a huge difference. Traditionally, the GT classes use different textbooks and they don't seem to change as much (LOL - I guess no one wants to spend money on them).

My concern is that they are stretching the material to fit the audience because they also try to be more inclusive with the GT and Honors labels as they go up in grade.

By the way, I think there is a distinction between the courses and the exams. If you completed the AP Calculus BC course, then you have the option (depending on your confidence, etc.) of taking the AP Calculus AB exam or the AP Calculus BC exam. If you have only completed the AP Calculus AB course, then you would take the AP Calculus AB exam. In our districts, you cannot sign up for the AP Calculus BC course without passing the AP Calculus AB course since the former picks up where the later left off.

That is another problem when we have fifty states with different standards - I suppose that was one of the arguments in favor of Common Core. High school graduation requires three years of math, which is typically Algebra I, Geometry and Algebra II for the non-college or community college tracks. However, the Honors Track would include Algebra II, Geometry, Pre-Calculus, and AP Calculus AB while the GT track would include Algebra II (formerly Geometry), Pre-Calculus, AP Calculus AB and AP Calculus BC.

That may be how our district has Pre-Calculus set up as well. I will have to look into it although that may well be subject to change as well. For some reason, that long-ago semester of Pre-Calculus is more fuzzy to me that Geo/Trig or Calculus. I vaguely remember a bit of very quick review and then miscellaneous new stuff as well as a bit of basic introductory calculus - kind of like the way Pre-Algebra includes some basic introductory Algebra.

That is another example of different state (or college) different system. It would be so much clearer if everything were uniform. My college (private) didn't offer any math courses below 1st semester calculus. I remember someone who changed her mind and wanted to be pre-med and had to go pay one of the local public univiersities to get a refresher course before taking Calculus.

I think if the course did in fact dug deeper and focused on deriving proofs, then it could work. The problem is I am not confident that the text or the instructors are up to the task. The idea of randomly assigning a track is just plain crazy.

Nobody seems to derive anything anymore. It's very passé, apparently.

To be honest I am a bit confused/worried about the AB/BC Calc questions myself. A friend has me concerned that if my son doesn't do honors pre-calc next year... he might be required to take AB Calc junior year, only allowing him to take BC Calc as a senior. I'll admit I am a bit confused by this and I'm not sure this is correct. Claiming there are some changes in my district in the next year or two.

Just tried looking at the college board document and I find it confusing. The way this is written it seems a school can implement it either as AB being a pre-req for BC, or as two different levels of the same class.

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/repository/ap-calculus-course-description.pdf

But AP Calculus is not necessary the benchmark. Keep in mind that if you are studying science or engineering at a top research university, even a 5 on BC Calculus doesn't cover all topics of a year of university calculus probably only the first semester. The topics that top universities cover is NOT the same as the AP courses. And what they expect as prerequisites may not be the same.

My understanding (from way back when) was that they planned to eventually get rid of the original/traditional track. But maybe that was just a rumor, who knows.

We did lots of proofs, our textbooks were ancient (probably from the 60s or early 70s), and the teacher knew her stuff. YMMV.

That's too bad. I just don't see how you can really learn it well without deriving the proofs.

I can't shed any light on your confusion as in our district, the regular (non-accelerated) GT students would take Pre-calc as sophomores, Calc AB as juniors and Calc BC as Seniors.

You're right. Many of my college classmates who got 4's and 5's on the AP Calculus BC exam chose to take 2nd semester calculus in college. Sometimes it was so there would be one easy class.

Well, in the dark ages when I was in high school, deriving geometry proofs was the norm. However, there has been some discussion that many schools no longer emphasize that. In our district, the regular geometry course has some regular proofs as well as some watered down proofs where you only fill in every other line or so.

I am not familiar with that Geometry book but at least some of MacDougal Littel's math textbooks are geared toward gifted students.

I don't know that it is so much a question of getting rid of Differential Equations and Linear Algebra as downplaying/not advertising it. For example, the Pre-Algebra program that DS was in last year was not advertised at all and the Algebra that he is taking this year is not even a program as there are only two students (counting DS) in the district of over 100,000.