I have a question for everyone who is commenting about not liking the leveling systems, as is being discussed in another thread. My daughter's school uses AR and I don't like it. It seems like basic factual recall. I've heard teachers at two different schools say the kids should take notes and study the books for the tests, but that seems to me like an effective way to make reading go from her favorite activity to a chore. It seems like one thing to really study a difficult book for an English class to understand it and analyze it, but very different to have to take notes on little details that won't have longer term importance.

So for those of you dealing with leveled systems at school, do you try to make it work for you as an educational exercise or do you just encourage your child to read whatever they like? I just don't even see the point of making her check out certain levels if her ZPD is so broad that she could check out a tenth grade book (if they had more than a few at that level), but most of what she checks out is at an upper sixth to seventh grade level (according to AR). I think it would make more sense to switch from AR to letting her explore interesting books in more depth without focusing on levels.

In the early grades, it seems clear that kids should be able to read challenging books that they enjoy and asking for higher levels seems straightforward. It is very different once challenging books would be beyond what is normally read for relaxation when there is no framework to have rewarding discussions and feedback on those books (like one would have in a good college English class or book club). However, the leveled systems don't seem to allow at all for starting to focus on depth and meaning instead of just choosing certain books.

Edited to add that she does very well on the tests with a 96 percent average. The problem is not that she does't do well on the tests, it's that I don't feel like it's contributing anything to her education except for the obvious value that reading is good!

My kids enjoy AR. My daughter left first grade with 200 points, and she currently has 210 with two quarters left in second grade. Her average book level is 6, and her percentage ranking is 96. All my kids have extensively tested, and because I know my way around the system, I volunteer at the school to teach how to use the program.

If a child is flunking the AR test on a book, there is a reason because the tests are extremely easy. You have multiple choice questions asking you to parrot back information from the book. I mean, they are as straight forward as this:

How did the Harry's first quiditch match end in Sorcerers Stone?
A. It was canceled because of rain
B. Draco Malfoy cast a spell on Harry and he broke his arm
C. Hermione was hit by a broom and the match was canceled
D. Harry caught the snitch in his mouth

That could be a test question!

If the child has read the book, they should never score below an 80. If they can not pass the test, they are either reading above their comprehension level, didn't read the book, or have some sort of reading problem. When a child was consistently flunking AR tests, I would give them a straight forward book to read with a known easy AR test (like Cynthia rylants Henry and Mudge series). After they tested on one they read independently, I read another from the same series and let them listen and then test again. Most of the late emergent readers would score 100% on books they listened to! and flunk the ones they read alone.

Some series are more complex than others. You would be surprised. Because Magic Treehouse contains elements of nonfiction, the tests are more complex. In general, the nonfiction tests are harder because you have to remember lots of minutiae. For instance, my little twins have never played baseball and one took an AR on a Pete the cat baseball book. Since the book focused on definitions and terms from baseball, he flunked it. I knew he would flunk it, because I knew he didn't understand the baseball terminology. I mean, for real. He flunked Pete the Cat, LOL.

I don't agree then, to study for the tests unless its a nonfiction book, since the information is much more specific.

The only time I was nervous about my daughter taking AR was when she jumped several levels at once. For instance, she one day in k class when she was five, picked up a novel and started reading it. It may have been sorcerers stone. I was not sure she was reading the book, because she had been reading mr putter and tabby and bad kitty. It was such a huge level jump that I didn't think it was possible she read it at all. In these cases, we would go to book adventure (a free website) and let the kids take their free test on the book. Generally their results were closely tied to how they did on AR. If they flunk a book Adventure test, I put the book away and say we can revisit it later on.

Oh, by the way. One reason they don't like for children to select books above their reading level is because they pass challenge and move into "frustration". The frustration level can impede reading and cause a child to stop reading.

And from personal experience as both an early reader myself and the parent of an advanced young reader, sometimes when the child reads above their level they do not check pronunciation of words and their inner voice comes up with a phonic that's incorrect. This has happened with my daughter when a series books that has words that do not obey phonics (maybe words with a French origin). There was a particular word that it took forever to relearn pronunciation of because her reading it her own way repeatedly over the course of a book imprinted an incorrect pronunciation. This happened to me as a child as well. We sort of solved this on our own by getting her a kindle. She can now tap a word she doesn't recognize and we encourage her to do so.

I don't think the child's ability to pronounce an obscure word id an indication of reading level, unless reading aloud it would be irrelevant, nor to I think the ability to remember trivial details is an indication of reading skill. Some books while entertaining enough during reading are simply not memorable enough to recall much. Personally having to write about or do tests on books would ruin the pleasure and I would either read less or lie about what I was reading.

I know you are talking about higher levels, but I am currently experiencing frustration with this with my DD's preschool. They are giving her level C readers, where she does encounter an occasional word she hasn't read before and needs to sound out. But at home she reads level J, talks about it, asks questions, and also encounters the occasional word she needs to sound out. DD(4y 1mo) doesn't like the repetitive nature of the level C readers but when they see she gets "tired" (AKA bored) and stumbles on one word, they assume it is her level. I just wrote a very heated email to her teacher (now regretting it) trying to explain this. But I just get so frustrated with having to go through this at every school (we just moved in January).

I don't believe in it personally. But it is the vehicle in which my son gets to read above level books although independently. The school just got in some new expensive sets of books that are also leveled fiction and nonfiction for leveled guided reading groups but I doubt his teacher will be setting him up in a group of one...he will probably be in the book group with whatever the highest is I his class...not necessarily his outlier level.

With AR, There are actually three kinds of tests in the system...vocabulary, multiple choice comprehension of basic facts of the story, and a third test that tests more literary elements. Not all the books have vocabulary or the lit analysis test.

I have edited my post because it was unclear. She gets 100 percent on almost every test, so it isn't a problem that she's failing them. I'm not asking for her to pick books above her level (the library only has half a shelf that would fit that description!). I'm just trying to figure out whether I should be trying to make it more educational by requesting something different. For example, I could ask them to make her level more narrow (apparently the levels are made very broad for higher levels because most recreational fiction is written at about a level 5 or 6, so it is harder to find good choices at higher levels, but reading at the lower end doesn't seem as though it is pushing a child to get more comfortable with more difficult work in the same way that a child with a lower range is being pushed). I could also ask for comprehension tests or for her to write about what she has read.

Alternatively, though, I can just let her enjoy picking out books without worrying about it. The tests don't bother her and she has special permission to get 2 books at one time instead of one, so she just feels like it's the same as getting books at the local library. I've asked them to let her get any level book (lower or higher) for her second book so she has more flexibility.

So I just don't feel she is learning anything from it at present, although she is enjoying the books, and am just torn about it. I'd like to feel she was learning at school! I'd like to feel like she was being pushed a little because she needs to be comfortable with doing things that are challenging.

Also, my daughter does run into the problem of learning mispronunciations through learning new words from books. I don't see it as a problem, though; I did the same thing. I just correct her if I hear a word like that and have installed the feature on her Kindle to check definitions and pronunciations.

But that's just it, Puffin. They don't pick trivial details. They pick obvious elements and primary themes from the story that you would have to either not have read or not comprehend to miss. My daughter has never failed one of the tests yet. Neither has one of my little twins.

About pronouncing words wrong, if the issue with the child advancing to the next reading level is phonics...? What was happening is my daughter did not learn to read by phonics. She was an early reader (3) and I didn't know what I was doing. I read to all four kids at once, with the book upside down in my lap so they could all see the pictures. She took a mental picture of each word, and memorized what I said the word was. This worked great when she was reading Outloud, or when I was reading Outloud. But once she started reading silently (5), I was not there to tell her the correct way to say the word. So, then she goes and takes the schools STar Literacy tests and she applied her own (phonics) to the test, thinking of how she would say that word based on memorizing similar words. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it did not. We wound up taking her k class summer and comprehensively teaching her phonics and it's not been a problem again.

But, as far as reading words you can decode but don't understand, this doesn't make sense to me ither, maybe I am missing something. My youngest twin is hyperlexic. He could read German at age four if handed to him, perfectly getting the phonics. How would this have benefitted him? He would not have understood what he read. In the same way, we waited until his understanding caught up with his phonics skills before sending him ahead in books. And sadly, he has lost most of hat hyperlexia which I read happens with children who are hyperlexic but not autistic. He still reads about four grades ahead though, so we are happy.

Apm, kindle is awesome for that very thing! If she gets 100 at my school, she can keep advancing until she gets a 70 - several- on a new level. That's when they ask you to stop.

Remember, I am talking about an 8 year old and not a younger child. If there is a word she doesn't know, she can often easily figure out the meaning from the context. If she thinks she knows how to pronounce it, there is no need to look up the pronunciation. So sometimes she does learn the wrong pronunciation, but I think this happens to anyone who reads a great deal and learns vocabulary that way. It's just important to pay attention and make corrections when needed. I don't think it suggests she isn't understanding well enough or shouldn't read that material.

Twinkletwice, it sounds like they use AR well at your school! My daughter's level never moved up no matter how many 100 percent scores she earned (they kept saying it would move up after she earned three 100 prevents). I mentioned this on the capped reading level thread. She's at a different school now!

I've been trying to convince her to use the Kindle to look up words she doesn't know, but she's usually too involved to bother if she thinks she has figured it out. Having a Kindle for her has been a huge help. We ran out of bookcase space a long time ago and the extra features you mentioned are great!

Apm, can we message off the forum about books? I have NO ONE to kindle book share with. For instance, I have the first four heroes of olympus I can loan one time each. If we have girls with similar reading interests, we could book share. However, your daughter may be more advanced than mine. My little girl is seven (an August preemie) and in second grade. I have all the original percy Jackson, too. Except sea of monsters which I bought at goodwill. Also... All four familiars books. Those are cute and fluffy, but do have advanced language. The AR are easy on them.

Do you want to talk about it by pm? I know it's possible to share Kindle books, but it always seems like the books we want to share don't have that enabled.

I am 40 something and I constantly have mispronounced outliers because I read it before I heard it.

Out-liers but I say in my head out-lee-ers

I like AR, but I've always viewed it as purely extracurricular.

I don't think that it's a great tool for teaching reading skills, or for teaching comprehension, but it's fantastic for motivating kids to pick up a book when they might gravitate toward a video game. At least for competitive children like mine....;) Just makes my job easier, I guess.

I think whether harry potter caught the snitch in his hand or his mouth is trivial in the great scheme of the book. Words that I used often had pronouciation corrected but some were much later - berefit, Durham, Worcester,Warwick are the ones that spring to mind. Not being able to pronounce these didn't affect my reading. Most of the time a unknown word can be guessed in context or looked up later but dropping ruins the flow. One thing I was always grateful to my father for is he always supplied a definition without suggesting I look it up. I love dictionaries but not while I am trying to read (do like this on kindle though).

Anyway we don't have AR here though there may be something similar later and so far I have only disagreed with the teacher's assessment once. I think he had a bad day because he was moved up to where I thought he should be less than two weeks later.

What are they doing for language arts INSTRUCTION in the classroom? AR is not an instruction program. Are they doing reading groups working on making increasingly complex predictions, inferences, and connections? Are they comparing texts and exploring purpose? Is there weekly vocabulary instruction? Do they work on looking up unfamiliar words and selecting the correct definition?

I'm always shocked by schools who use AR as seemingly the sole means of instruction. Tests don't teach, they assess. For that matter, computers don't do a great job of teaching either. Teaching and true assessment happens best during interactions with a living, breathing, responsive teacher.

My kids school introduced the AR when my son was in K, and my daughter was in 5th. MOST K kids didn't use it, but my son's K teacher used it for enriching those few kids who were reading WAY above grade level. Except for the challenge in finding good books to fit his age, interest & reading level. I helped figured out that the best books for him that year were the Magic School Bus books, they had a high lexile 450-550L but were short. On the other hand my daughters 5th grade class quickly abandoned using they system because of the difficulty of finding age appropriate books for a class full of gifted readers.

In K as a supplementary teaching program, AR worked fine but by 3rd grade this was not longer an effective or interesting teaching method for him. It was hard to find books to fit his "level", the questions/test because a testing system that works fine for checking the reading comprehension of pictures books doesn't translate well to 200 page chapter books with complex themes.

I have stated in other threads about this, that I feel this system doesn't work well past about the 4/5th grade level (about 700-800 lexile). There are a number of reasons for this. Plus like all teaching methods, AR works well for some kids but certainly not all. And this certainly should NOT be the only method used to teach reading.

Basically I feel the Lexile system while it works OK for "leveling" early readers & early chapter books and can be a useful tool for steering kids to books that will be appropriate. It should not be the only tool for teaching or assessing reading.

AR is a big component of reading instruction, but they also write essays and do some worksheets. Because language arts is my daughter's strongest area, I'd like to find ways to challenge her more. We can work on things at home (e.g., she writes stories at home), but her school does work with me if I suggest ideas. It is difficult to find ideas that work without her needing too much individual help from the teacher. We are trying to work on it, though.

My son's class has a reading book that is a fourth grade reading book that the whole class gets reading instruction from (vocabulary, literary analysis, etc.) and there are additional readers from that publisher for small group instruction (each group has a different reader if they are English language learners, below level, on level or above level). So in the book they might read a fictional story about a topic together and then the small groups get the readers that might be non fiction on the same topic for small group instruction...I assume they don't have a group of readers above level enough to actually make a difference for my son. I think when they do the small groups they rotate to centers and one of the centers they do is have free time to read the book they have selected from the library (the ar book) and take the ar test if they are ready. The ar books he reads are the only time he is reading close to his instructional level.

I just thought I would mention that my DD's gifted magnet has never used AR. I don't know the reason for this, but it is not a part of the curriculum at all. They do do reading responses--short answers, with the topics and questions varying, but it has to be general, since they read whatever they want. They also have no requirement for the level of what they read. This is outside of in-class reading, which is actually NOT differentiated--they all read the same novels, which are not that far above grade level but seem to be chosen carefully for complex themes.

Our school uses a similar approach to ultramarina's; the kids read whatever they want (at home or for free reading) and have individual work related to that, and then there are in-class books, sometimes whole-class, sometimes small group, where they have discussion groups and projects. I find the whole leveled-reading thing quite strange, to be honest. I remember several conferences where the teacher mentioned the measured level, then said something to the effect of "of course, she is probably really at about xx, but they don't let us test that high..." And we would all smile and move on. For kids like ours, I think the levels are pretty meaningless, and thankfully our teachers seemed to agree. There was no attempt by anyone to control or limit what our kids read, and the whole library was open to every kid, every book.

Indeed. I still do get into a twist about putting those false scores into writing that matters, like an IEP report. Because I like actual data that mean something. This is a minority position.

Oh yeah...I wouldn't let that stand. Data does mean something.

Here is what I see our media specialist doing (I volunteer 3 hours a day there so I see a lot). At the beginning of the year they test and the kids know their level range. One book they select must be in that range. The second book can be higher especially if they have a parent or sibling who will read aloud to them or if the second book is a non fiction on a topic they are very interested in.

Then as the year goes on she suggests that they stretch and look at books the next level up and see if it is a book they are interested in read a random page and see if it would be a "good for you" book. Then they test again and get new levels. And it starts over.

She does tell kindergarden children who barely can read that they can't have certain books unless they check with the teacher (sitting right there) so the teacher says yes her sister is going to read that with her or no let me help you find a good for you book that is like this one.

Some of it is that there are only so many copies of each book. For example, diary of a wimpy kid books (5th grade reading level)...very few of the 1st graders can read that high (in our school)... It is saved for the 3-5th graders who can actually read it. Someone like my son would be allowed to check it out earlier than that but a first grader reading on a first grade level would not be allowed to have it for two weeks. More of a supply and demand problem. We have 1000 kids and one copy of each wimpy book in English and one in Spanish.

My children have to do 100 book challenge at school, and have their DRA levels tested quarterly. For 100 book challenge - they are assigned books at a certain color level, and must read books from that level in class for 15-30 minutes and as homework for 15 minutes each day. They bring 4-6 books home from school to read each day. The color levels roughly correspond to certain DRA levels, but as far as I can tell, no child is allowed to move more than one grade level ahead.

I usually ask them to read at least one of the books from school for the home reading, but sometimes let them read other books, such as their library books, instead. I do try to ask the comprehension questions and have them read to me occasionally for practice. I do make them choose fiction books most of the time, as the assessments are all done using fiction.

The 100 book challenge philosophy has to do with practicing reading that is easy for the child, but my children usually find the books at their level to be so easy they are incredibly boring.

Interestingly, our school also uses Raz-Kids, which is an online system that allows reading and listening to books along with comprehension questions. They can choose books from the assigned level, or choose any book at their level or above. Both of my twins regularly choose books in raz-kids that are well above the DRA level assessed by the school and do well on the quizzes. I am somewhat looking forward to the next parent/teacher conference because this should be an interesting point of discussion.

They are allowed to check any book out of the library.

I always thought it was kind of odd... my kids' school uses the AR program, but they don't really do anything with it? They encourage the kids to take AR tests, and sometimes give them a grade (participation) for taking a certain number, but that's it. Last year (3rd grade) my son ended the year with a grade 6.6 average. And I never heard anything from anyone about it. This year the school year is halfway over and they are just now talking about it. *shrug* It's probably wrong of me, but I think my son's reading level is somewhere around high school level, and so I don't really worry about it anymore. I've accepted that he's not going to learn anything in that arena until H.S. I focus on his writing, which has always been much closer to grade level.

I hate RAZ, so much so that I have negotiated our kids out of participation. The quality of the books is so poor! I want them to spend time reading something worth while...

This is exactly how my son's school does it. It's that "in class for 15-30 minutes of free reading of 100 book challenge books" at "their just right level" with which we are having such problems. My DS almost always finds the books at his level to be so easy that they are incredibly boring. I send in whatever chapter book he is reading at home and that is what he gets punished for - reading the book that he brings in from home during the 100 book challenge free reading time.

I totally agree.

Incidentally, ever since we have pretty much completely opted out of the 100 book challenge program, as I can not remember the last time my son read an actually 100 book challenge book at independant reading time at school or at home, his reading achievement level is really going up quickly and nicely. In my opinion his rising achievement level is the best evidence that the 100 book challenge program is not necessary. When he is forced to do the program his reading levels drop or stagnate .. the more we move away form the 200 book challenge books the better his reading gets.

DS actually really likes Raz-Kids. I'm not sure why. But the school does it differently where the teacher assigns them books from their guided reading level, and then they have to read all 16 or whatever books and pass the quizzes before they can move onto the next level. So DS had to wade through a lot of books that were way too easy, and even now that he's whipped through about 6 levels in a couple months, he says it's still too easy. I don't make him listen to the audio, so he "fast forwards" through that part so the system will count it as done.
The quality of some of the books definitely isn't great (esp. the fiction books!) but I figure at least DS will get in some practice with dumb multiple choice reading tests, which will be so important as we move forward. No way to get into gifted programs here unless he does well on computerized reading tests.

We opted out of AR, which I believe was developed both to test comprehension and motivate reluctant readers. Teachers of DC have been open to us opting out as they are obviously bookworms.

Segue was a word that took me forever to recognize when hearing it. Even into college, I read "seg-goo" and heard "seg-way" and never put the two together.

My sons are learning new words from reading. We have had to correct their pronunciation on a few, but overall they are using the words in the correct context, which is good. I can remember it took me a while as a child to recognize "insomnia" when I heard someone use it in a sentence, as in my head it was pronounced in-SO-mania. LOL

My DS told me that he listens to the books on RazKids in order to learn how to pronounce the words he hasn't read previously. He then "fast forwards" through the reading-only portion. He is fortunate in that he seems to learn new words after one or two exposures, so this works for him.

For a while he was just listening and not reading along, and then trying to do the quizzes after only listening. That didn't work very well, so now he reads along with the audio version. His goal is to get to "z," so we we will see what happens. He is doing raz-kids on his kindle instead of playing minecraft, so I am not going to complain.

Funny aside re the pronunciation: My kid has been reading a lot of books with storylines involving Irish Mythology . Well, let me tell you, the prounuciation of Gaelic does not correspond well at to English...LOL For eaxmple, "Sidh" is prounounced "She" and "Cuchulainn" is pronounced Koo-hoo-lan (or something). Not sure how much permanent damage it is doing to him lingusitically but he loves the Irish mythology!

We just switched DD's school. She's in first grade with a reading level of 4.2-6.1. (Not sure how the range was figured on that.)
I do feel that the books she is bringing home are at a higher "level" than than some of the books she was reading from her book box at her old school.
Her new classroom has a lovely library with much more variety and many more chapter books! I don't know if this is typical of all AR classrooms, but I am impressed at what she has to choose from.
I think the biggest thing is understanding words she hasn't read before and how to pronounce them, but that comes with time. You should hear her pronounce Eucerine lotion….Eek urine!!!

Continuing to read aloud to kids helps especially if emphasizing isolating new words. Traditional dictionaries, online dictionaries, or the free online pronunciation resource forvo can come in handy. For example, here is eucerin.

Now that is a new word for me.

Thanks for the link to forvo.com. I still read aloud to DD nightly. Her favorite book is the dictionary:-) We are constantly looking words up!

Personally, I can't wait till my poor DD can stop answering stupid multiple-choice reading comprehension questions. She can write the most beautiful short answers and literary text analysis (I don't know what else to call it--it truly is analysis, and far above grade level), but she will overthink those stupid questions and get them wrong more often than seems reasonable for a child of her ability. I know she understands what she reads, but especially when it comes to "Was the author trying to convey a fact or opinion about the dog when he said that..." stuff, she starts to sort of go crazy and will end up guessing wrong.