In the early years, how big of a deal is it to be working a grade-level or two grade-levels ahead?

For example, when I look at a kindergarten workbook and a first-grade workbook, I don't notice a huge difference. And of course as an adult, it all looks easy. And I'm also a gifted adult, so trying to think back to what I knew when I was that age isn't an appropriate comparison either.

The main reason I'm asking is that I'm currently homeschooling DS5. Husband is not fully on board going forward and would like to enroll him in school next year. There's a part of me thinking that if I have DS complete a first grade workbook, it will be a sort of "proof" to hubby that he really is ahead. Though we have test results showing giftedness, DS isn't really the overachieving type, so I think it's hard for hubby to gain some perspective.

He's not yet reading, and I'm suspecting dyslexia (which is a whole different beast), but now thinking this, I'm starting to adjust my approach to reading with him. He also hasn't memorized the math facts, but he understands what's going on. But beyond these, I think his skills are a bit more advanced and that sending him to school would be a disaster.

So, I guess what I'm asking is if at this age, "working above grade level" really is significant.

In maths it's significant - but that doesn't prove school will be a disaster; it depends what the school is like. Rather than have him complete a first grade book, I'd be inclined to test him systematically and see what he can and can't do. One option - there are lots of others of course - would be to have him do (for free via a trial period) the initial assessment for ALEKS third grade maths (it does assess skills from the beginning, so this isn't something that would make sense only if you thought he was at that level). Then I'd ask hard questions of any school I was considering.

Thanks! That's a good start. An assessment is what I need. I also just found a local group that seems to be to support gifted kids in our (rather small) city, so I'm pretty excited about that. They'll be able to give me more info about what the schools have to offer.

My perspective is that an ability to work well beyond grade level at this age is a HUGE deal. It's an age where children are less able to tolerate boredom and repetition, and often leads to maladaptive coping measures: acting out on one end of the spectrum, depression and self-harm on the other.

My DD was on the latter end of the spectrum, and we had significant reasons to worry for her mental health if she was to remain in that educational environment... and so she didn't.

You need to meet your child at your child's level in order for them to feel happy in their learning environment. Sending this child to school may or may not be a disaster - you are only making assumptions that it will not work. There are a lot of good things about schools - things that get talked down when homeschooling is being touted.

I personally would like to homeschool but in our child's case, the benefits of the school environment far outweigh the benefits of learning at home. We make up for the lack of sufficient acceleration at school by afterschooling intensively and sending DS to a school that will accomodate his learning needs somewhat.
Since you would like to prove that your DS is ahead - you can have him take a placement test with Singapore Math or the EPGY Mathematical Aptitude Test. I remember doing these when my DS was 4 just to get an idea on where he was at.

As for listening comprehension, you can ask your DS to summarize and narrate an advanced book that you read aloud to him and show your DH the video of that narration.

Also, you might get some above age level logic workbooks from Critical Thinking Company or Prufrock press and have your DS complete some of their mind bender like puzzles to show his advanced reasoning skills.

It is hard to quantify the "above grade" performance for a 5 year old in all the other subjects like history, science etc. in my opinion. That will be only possible when they systematically study these subjects at a later age.

ashley has made some excellent recommendations already. DD4 is advanced in math and has completed 1st grade level math (on ixl.com) a few months ago and comfortably working on 2nd grade (conceptually knows even higher). She has just started to read but readingeggs.com estimates her reading age at 5.5 (for what it is worth) and she is making progress in leaps and bounds. Her school is not academically focused at all. Her teacher is not providing her challenging material at all. However, DD is very happy. She is partially home-schooled (1.5-2 days a week) so she is able to satisfy her academic curiosity at home. She goes to school to play with her friends, do art and yoga and drama and hands-on projects. I am planning to continue her there for kindergarten later this year. Maybe you can find a similar setup.

One grade level may or may not matter significantly, especially in reading. Many classrooms have kids reading 1 to 3 grades above "grade level," though this is less common early on. It's a bit less common to be ahead in math because most kids don't study math at home.

A lot depends on your local school system. It's hard to assess at this level, as you say. K12 placement tests can be helpful.

I would not be quick to assume that school will be "a disaster," unless the idea is that you want to homeschool anyway. Your child might like school and there might be more options locally than you know about. In a relatively educated area, you will find other kids (one to five per classroom) who enter K with some advanced abilities. "How advanced?" is the question of note. Personality is also obviously a factor.

Another example (but every child is different): I was told by preschool teacher than k would be a disaster. I didn't "hear/ understand" what she said. Ds went to k. K was a complete disaster. He was in the "high" group, but what they did was soo excruciatingly repetitive. Ds had a hard time understanding why the other kids didn't read or do math or whatever. (When assessed professionally, reading was end of 3rd, math end of 2nd- with no real exposure, play.) whether other kids were at that level, I'm not sure. However, that was not the kind of instruction he received at school. At that point, I really started after schooling to his interest; and struggled to get through.

(We were promised things would be better in 1st.) they are better, sort of- because the teacher is kind. Yet, not socially or academic

So, now, my dh and I are trying to decide what is best. (I want to homeschool.)

In sharing our experience, if you want to try school, it may work. Just have a back up plan if it doesn't work, have a back up plan. If you want to homeschool, go for it! Everyone here who home schools, seems quite happy!

Keep us posted!

I agree with ultra. There were kids with a huge range of reading and writing ability in our K-2 grade classrooms because of simple differences in when those individual children were developmentally ready to read/write. This includes significant differences among gifted children too

If I was in your situation, I would probably try school next year since your dh wants to. If it doesn't work out, then you'll both be able to see the challenges and issues first-hand, rather than assuming there will be challenges.


What type of workbooks are you looking at? I wouldn't put too much weight into the typical grade level workbooks you find at bookstores etc - in early grades in particular the work level can be all over the place, what is "2nd grade" in one book might be "K" in another. If you want to use workbooks, I'd take recommendations from homeschool parents - either ask online or friends you know or at a local homeschool bookstore if there's one near you.

One thing I like about using Aleks is that it will show you what your child has mastered as measured against your individual state standards (other programs/software/etc) may do this as well. That gave us a really good way of understanding (and proving to others) what grade level our children were working at.


If you suspect dyslexia, that *might* be a very good reason to actually put him into public school next year - to have the opportunity to have an experienced teacher give you input on his reading ability, to have him evaluated and possibly to have access to resources that will help him learn to read. You can request the eval even though you're homeschooling, but in some areas you might not have access to as many resources through the school district for remediation etc. Public school was ultimately not the best solution for my own 2e kids, but fwiw, it was really helpful for me to have had them in public school for awhile both for evaluation purposes and for learning about what their needs are. If you are committed to the idea of homeschooling but think that at some later point in time you are going to have to give public school a try (for your dh), I'd personally try it now while your ds is younger and while you're trying to get a handle on what's up with reading.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thanks.

He was in a Montessori program for 2.5 years and when the teacher refused to give him harder work, we had A LOT of behavior problems at home. (He was generally well-behaved in school, but would let it all out at home.) I'm talking 45 minute long screaming tantrums where he would try to punch or kick me. He HATES repetition, sometimes even when it's something fun.

It's been a year since the real problems at his Montessori school started and he stayed in that school through to the end of the school year. I'm only *just* now starting to feel like he's gotten over it.

These are the main reasons why I hesitate to put him in school. I went to school and enjoyed it for the social aspect while still excelling academically. (My senior year, I skipped class so often that I technically shouldn't have been allowed to graduate, but since I was valedictorian, the principal made up a "doctor's note" excusing me.)

I do have lots of conflicting feelings about school vs. homeschool. On one hand, I'd like him to have some of the social experiences that come with real school (I think he blends in well with most kids and is usually well-liked, so I wouldn't worry about bullying, as some of you might have to worry about.). I was more impressed with the school he'd go to than I thought I'd be. And truthfully, sometimes I'd like the break. On the other hand, he's active and a perfectionist and hates repetition and I can see the school environment crushing him. I've also had the benefit of seeing the type of luxuries that homeschooling offers, like never facing crowds at the science museum and spending the whole day in the park with friends riding bikes.

I just feel that his personality and learning style are not the best fit for the traditional classroom, and I worry about it crushing his spirit (and dealing with the behavior problems). With age cutoffs, he'd be going into first grade next year as one of the youngest in the class (Cutoff is Dec. 1 and he's mid-November.).

My husband is from Japan and they have no differentiation in the school there. Performance on a test literally defines your life path, as this gets you into the right elementary school, which gets you into the right jr high, and so on. Hearing that our son is "high iq" ("gifted" never sticks for some reason) just equals school success in my husband's view. He doesn't understand the emotional differences that come with that high iq. Things are just black and white. He also doesn't have much experience being around other kids, so he doesn't see our kids as being somewhat out of the norm.

The workbook thing just popped into my head as an idea after getting a coupon for 40% off any workbooks in the store. haha. But I think that having some type of "hard data" to show husband that DS is more advanced than other kids his age might sway him to see that homeschooling is the better choice for us.

Lilmisssunshine- my dh NEVER got it until we met with the tester. She talked until he got it.

Good luck! Whatever you choose, it's not finite. You can change your mind/ change to meet ds needs:)

Why are you suspecting dyslexia? It is not at all unusual for 5 year old's to be unable to read at this age. I have known gifted children who didn't 'read' until they were 7, and then learned to read at an extremely rabid pace.

It is possible he has dyslexia, but at this age it's probably hard to tell unless you see an expert. Public schools probably wouldn't be worried about a 5 year old even one they consider gifted. My school district won't test for LD's until 2nd grade.

How are you 'teaching' reading? There are a number of different methods and not all methods work for all children.

I definitely understand that this could be developmental (and it would be great if it was!). There have just been a lot of little things that when I bring up among other parents, quite a few have said that it turned out to be early signs of dyslexia in their child. These things are knowing the sounds of the letters since he was 3, but not being able to blend, not being able to rhyme at all ("Bed and led rhyme. Can you think of something else that rymes with bed?" "Yes! Jacket!"), randomly guessing at words based on the first letter, and other little things like that. One or two on their own wouldn't worry me as much, but putting them all together just seems to indicate something more. Additionally, his test scores showed very high visual-spatial scores, which seems to be a profile more associated with dyslexia than other types (and having the positive traits listed in the book Dyslexic Advantage).

A friend who was a special education teacher before taking time off said that it does sound like a definite possibility, as does another friend who's a school psychologist. I've put in a phone call to the school district about testing, but I think that they wouldn't normally test this early. And this is normal. But everything I'm reading about dyslexia says that it's best to catch it this young and start remediation before the child falls too far behind, that even when kids start to get help in 2nd or 3rd grade, they never catch up with kids who were better readers early on.

We've mostly been doing phonics based work, extending the type of things that he was doing in his Montessori. He's been very frustrated with this, though, because he's just not getting it and he doesn't like things that "make him feel stupid". More recently, though, I've tried changing things up a bit, using techniques that I've found on Pinterest for dyslexics, as I read through the book Overcoming Dyslexia. I figure, even if he's not dyslexic, using different techniques can't hurt.

ETA: We've also been working on reading Japanese and that's going much better. Though there are more "letters", everything about the "alphabet" is phonetic and there aren't the variations you see in English.

My DD8 was showing signs of dyslexia around age 4-5... "guessing" at words, frequently misidentifying similar letters like b, d, p, and q, and even writing entire words backwards. We didn't do anything special with her for remediation, and she ended up doing the reading at story time for her pre-K class. She tested at lexile level 1000 at the end of 3rd grade (7yo). She did have phonics videos that she watched over and over, and we did read to her every night, which would have built up her catalog of sight words. But I say "nothing special" because these were activities she actively sought.

I'm currently working with another 8yo gifted girl who has a previous identification of dyslexia and is significantly behind grade level in reading... and honestly, I'm not seeing dyslexia. I am seeing a kid who will guess at a word when she sees it, needs support in sounding things out and blending the sounds, and tries to avoid reading. Those sound like dyslexia. But the major problems here are actually:

1) She prefers whole-word recognition as a reading strategy, which is why she "guesses." My DD did the same when she was starting out.

2) Too many of our basic words violate the rules of phonics, making sight-recognition a better strategy.

3) Blending sounds is actually difficult.

4) This child has missed tons of school, where she would have been expected to do the practice necessary to build up skill at 2 and 3.

In just the few weeks she's been working with me, she's made noticeable progress (even to the point where she noticed it herself). But it's been a major challenge to get her to see herself as able due to the dyslexia label. It really has done this child a world of harm (though maybe not so much as the missing school).

So I would tread very carefully before rushing to use the d-word.

Guessing words is pretty normal and often encouraged at school. Many kids even the very gifted have trouble with rhyming but I have seen a lot (including ds6) click between 5 and 6. Ds4 clicked at 3 or just 4 but he is more language and less maths oriented than ds6 (and still can't read and prefers not to write).

I agree with Dude wholeheartedly. My DS who has very high level of reading comprehension guesses at words a lot when reading aloud - this is because he "expects" certain word formations and is used to certain speech patterns and is not exposed to other speech patterns (for example he gets distressed trying to read pirate books with "me hearties, I be goin' " etc) and he is extremely impatient in doing anything that takes time. I have finally got a handle on this situation - when he reads to me, i go in with a pencil and mark each word that he gets wrong and he needs to reread the sentence with the wrong word slowly back to me. And that annoys him enough to slow down and really read the first time instead of guessing.

We all, as parents and educators, are looking at the world, by default, through our own perspective, through the filter of our own individual experiences. My guess is that you're going to hear parents of children who are dyslexic or who have reading challenges chime in with things that sound very familiar in their parenting experience and parents of children who are not challenged with reading chime in with things that ring true from their experience, hence some of us will be saying yes - definitely act now, check that out, and others will be saying don't rush into an evaluation, everything sounds completely typical and normal. The reality is it's very difficult before around the age of 7 or 2nd grade for parents and teachers to see what is typical vs developmentally challenging with reading (or writing) for any one child simply because there is such a variation in when neurotypical children are developmentally ready to learn. However - reading specialists and neuropsychs etc are trained and capable of teasing apart what is developmentally typical and what is indicative of a challenge even when a child is young.

When dyslexia or a related challenge is suspected, early remediation can make a HUGE difference, and waiting until it's so obvious that everyone in the child's life (teacher, parent, babysitter, distant cousin) can see that the child is struggling with reading means several years of missed opportunity for remediation + most likely several years of frustration for the child that can result in huge impacts on self esteem. So my personal advice is that when a parent has a hunch, test, evaluate, whatever. If you have an evaluation and find out everything is developmentally a-ok - that's GREAT. Wonderful on many levels - first because it means your child isn't going to struggle learning to read - it will happen, second because you can look forward knowing you don't have to plan remediation etc, and third because you don't have to spend the next 2-3 years as a parent wondering if something is a challenge or not.


I agree, it's not unusual for 5 year olds to be unable to read, but I see some other red flags below (disclaimer: I have a 9 year old 4th grader who has a reading challenge, so that's the lens I'm looking at this through).


This absolutely happened with my dd who is reading challenged. She learned her alphabet sounds when she was very very young. She started trying to read when she was around 3 years old. She stumbled and struggled on sound blends - it was like hitting a brick wall. The same girl who was so eager to learn how to read books at 3, by the time she was 5, was refusing to try to read and still tries to avoid reading in 4th grade. Kids have to learn individual sounds before they learn blends, so it's totally typical to learn that first and not expect the blends to develop overnight. But if a child who was able to learn the sounds with no problem and who is interested in learning how to read stumbles over blends, seems to be frustrated over it, or is just not getting it in spite of instruction in which he/she is a willing participant, that's a red flag for a reading challenge. Same with other reading skills.


This is also something that happens with children who have reading challenges, and happened with my dd. She still isn't very good at recognizing rhymes or will think something rhymes which is entirely not rhyming-at-all.


Again, something my reading-challenged dd did (and still does).


I totally agree with this - added in with the fact that he's been trying to read and has had instruction in reading. I would also look at your general family history - are there any dyslexics in your family, or any adults who have struggled with reading or who just don't read.


It sounds like you have people who know you and possibly your child also agreeing that there might be a reading challenge. I would second the concern that it's better to test and know early so you can start remediation (and appropriate curriculum/etc) early. There are many different skills that go into reading, so it's not as simple as saying a child is or isn't dyslexic therefore we pick remediation technique a or technique b. Having thorough testing is really key to understanding what is going on, especially when children are very young. And early remediation is sooo so very important - again, jmo - but what I've seen happen with my dd really makes me a believer in the importance of it with respect to reading. I don't want to scare you lilmiss, but teasing out what's the challenge can be tough without thorough testing, and it took us until 2nd grade to really get a good understanding of what was going on with our dd and then again another round of testing in 3rd to fully understand what type of remediation she needed. She's been tutored this school year (outside of school) and it's made an amazing difference in her reading ability, but in the meantime I can see what she's lost in the years that she wasn't reading well - while she was struggling her peers were taking in all kinds of information that she wasn't simply because she wasn't reading. She had a lot of stress in her life due to seeing how much and how quickly the other kids in her class read. She missed questions on worksheets and tests because she either misread directions or misread specific questions. Her self-esteem has taken a big hit and she has a lot of anxiety around schoolwork and reading. She loves to listen to audiobooks, but I am guessing she will never enjoy picking up a book to read - and even though it's easy to say that's not a problem in this day of high-tech, the reality is it's not as easy supplying your child with never-ending audiobooks as it is just having books lying around the house to pick up and read or going to the library for an afternoon and just browsing. I'll acknowledge this might be *my* personal challenge - so if anyone has any suggestions to make it as easy or easier please tell me lol! I so want to be able to open her life up to books and being excited about books - but I think remediation for her, honestly came just a tiny bit too late.

Sorry for the ramble, I just wanted to try to explain to folks who's children haven't struggled with reading why parents who's children have struggled would encourage a parent of a 5 year old to seek out answers/help/evals etc when the parent has a hunch something might be challenging.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Children with dx reading disabilities also qualify for free books for the blind lending library audio books. Or they did back in the 1990s when I was a teacher. You make selection out of a catalog and they are mailed to you and then you mail them back.

I'd like to comment on two of the issues raised here.

Firstly the reading thing. You have described my DS(7) almost exactly! And for a long time we suspected Dyslexia. Now we are not sure because as was pointed out to us, he is smart enough to find a way to work around that and so even a really good tester will not pick it up now. Having said that, he is a whole word reader and phonics just never made sense to him. He was reading simple readers at the start of pre school (here that is age 3) and was then made to spend months learning phonic sounds etc before being allowed to have more early readers. Perhaps if the phonic thing doesn't work for him try whole word?

The second thing is the school vs. homeschool thing. While there may well be benefits to schooling, if YOU want to homeschool then homeschool for that reason. You don't need to justify your reasons. You had a very similar experience to my oldest son - and I remember very well those exhausting moments of anguish and temper. The last one we had I got a black eye and he tried to choke me. I cannot fathom the level of desperation he must have felt to do that. I simply cannot go back to that - I don't think he or I will survive that again, and at the beginning of homeschooling my husband made comments here and there about school and I would just remind him of the tantrums, the bed-wetting and bad dreams, the loss of appetite, the anxiety (we still have some signs of it nearly 2 years later), the costs of the 9 months of play therapy and so forth.

In your case, I would suggest that 5 is so young still - stay home for another year (or 2) and then see how it's going. This will give your husband a chance to see how things are progressing at home - and you can keep reminding him of how far your son has come from those angry, anxious days.

I often snap photos with my phone and send them straight to hubby during the day to show what we are doing and how happy my kids are. And now he is as equally committed to homeschooling as I am.

All the best for making your decisions!