I'm curious to hear others experiences with their children learning instruments/ reading music.

Did you share with the music teacher their intellectual giftedness? Was their learning rate fast? How did they deal with the frustrations of learning an instrument (fingers need to build strength and coordination)? How do you balance musical talent with academic talent? Also curious, does anyone have thoughts on how a significantly stronger VCI or stronger PRI could impact how a student learns music?

We had to talk a guitar teacher into taking on our DD at 6, and we mentioned her intellectual abilities as an argument in her favor. He'd never had a student that young. She learned very quickly. Unfortunately, she didn't have the discipline to practice or tolerate failure, and she ended up dropping it after several months. The maturity factor wasn't there yet. There's plenty of time yet for her to pick it up again later, and I'm sure she will.

My personal thought is that music naturally lends itself to the visual-spatial mind, because of the way it's written (the symbols are largely visual), the way it employs patterns, and the way it's underpinned by mathematical constructs.

We were trying to get into a group piano class and were being pushed to give DD lessons before she was 3.5. We said no. Her birthday is end of Sept so when the group piano started in Sept, the instructor pushed me again and DH and I decided to start. She had perfect pitch and her coordination and ability to move her fingers quickly was extraordinary. She did a concert at 7 but she didn't love it enough and the work for the concert was tough on her. The pieces were very fast and very strong, so she had a lot of pounding of chords with one hand rapidly scaling down the piano. And for a concert, where people are paying, it has to be really good or you cannot play. We took a down year and now she is with a jazz pianist and starting to get into it again. I want her to enjoy her talent. So DD has the piano ability/math combo that some gifties have.

I think it is VS since I was able to pick up the piano much easier (you sort of try it again when they play) than DH, who thought he would be couldn't. He was a verbal kind of guy.

Ren

DD7's virulent perfectionism almost disappears when he practices piano - it's a bit eerie. He will repeat as necessary to reach perfection without the tantrums/quitting/bad attitude that can occur in other pursuits. For that reason, alone, we'd stick with it, but he also genuinely enjoys it. He chose the instrument and has played for 3 years. We haven't shared any testing information to date, but he's switched music schools and I'm considering doing so to help his new teacher understand his strengths and weaknesses. That seems a kindness to both of them. He picks up the concepts very quickly and the beauty of piano is that he doesn't have to learn how to make the note, he just has to learn the right key to press, which mitigates some of the frustration of comprehension outpacing fingers.

No, we let that be its own little surprise. LOL DD is in year 8 of piano lessons. She also took violin in a group setting (with me) when she was 7. That didn't last, for reasons I'll elaborate upon later.


The thing that made the biggest difference I think was that her cognitive ability has made learning to read music effortless. It's been osmotic-- and I get the sense that is NOT the case for most piano students who study theory and technique. She also sight-reads amazingly well-- nearly pro level, and always has done, right at the limit of her technical skill level.


Yes, dramatically-- at least for the first three years (piano). Yes also with violin, though not nearly so dramatic as with piano, and the challenges experienced by not yet having a sense of absolute pitch made the challenge unacceptably high for my DD. Also-- Mom was better without practicing (having had 12 or so years of additional experience with a treble clef instrument, mind). Unacceptable.
She has now decided that she'd like to try a string instrument again at some point-- so who knows?

Piano again: she still practices about half what someone at her level "should" in order to make progress the way that she does. If she were to double her practice time, I think that her skill advancement might well triple. We insist on a minimum and don't really fuss about it. Piano is for a lifetime and for learning task persistence/frustration tolerance/etc. Not for competitions in the here and now.

She does things for fun that many students never attempt-- like introducing a steady swing into something like.... one of the Bach two-part inventions, for example. She likes to just "tweak" things like that, just to amuse herself. She improvises during about 15% of her "practice" time daily.

Practice: what this means to my DD is something quite different from what her teacher (or myself, truthfully) have in mind. But there's no moving her. She practices by: a) warming up for 2-5 minutes with Hanon, Concone, or something similar then b) 5-10 minutes playing each of her "in progress" assignments through, with the instructions her teacher has given her-- unless they've slipped her mind or she doesn't like them, in which case she ignores the advice on fingerings, etc and just plays them through the way she pleases, and c) 10-15 minutes of playing whatever she fancies... often improv on piano standards, or tinkering with show tunes, sometimes sight reading. Yes. She practices (at most) 30 minutes a day. Late intermediate, why do you ask?



Piano: badly-- but raw talent and aptitude was enough to make it tolerable until she had enough invested that it made no sense to quit and start something else. (See above note on sight-reading). We also "fed" her desire to master with a steady stream of the types of material that she personally preferred (Russian and eastern European folk, ragtime, jazz, and FAST paced baroque-through-classical). Now it's Broadway standards, and has been for several years. It's a serious shame that she doesn't have an emotional connection to Debussy, because man-- she can move a listener to tears with it. In a good way. She can also move a listener to tears with how lackadaisical she is when her teacher is trying to tell her something.

Violin: This was the kicker, ultimately-- she couldn't develop hand strength and skill without practicing, and muscle memory never developed. Mental skill was fine, but didn't ever match the (more anemic) physical skill set. Intolerable. She quit.


I tend to think that this is generally the same TYPE of problem as with any other extracurricular. That is, for most of them, they find a point of balance with it. For those who are prodigy-type talent or who are OBSESSED and using it as an escape from an otherwise intolerable educational setting, parents may have to put limits on things to maintain a healthy lifestyle. It's never been a problem here.


No idea, really.

Both our kids learned to read music without specifically being taught- they were in group cello lessons in school and the teaching was primarily by ear, but the kids did for some reason get sheet music of the pieces. The group lessons were frustrating, as they did learn faster and were ready to move ahead way before the group. The hand strength required for cello was frustrating for my DS, but he was able to see the benefits of regular practice. Still, after a year both kids switched to individual lessons on woodwinds. Again, both have found it easier than their peers seem to; DD earned first chair in her All-county orchestra at the youngest age eligible to try out. DS is still in the early stages and braces have added some frustrations to his initial progress.

As far as balance, the only issues have been the occasional major conflicts like science olympiad tournaments and all-county on the same weekend kind of stuff; you learn to prioritize and work it out (remarkably, the same kids are usually involved). Overall, it has been a great escape and relaxation tool, particularly for DD, and both enjoy the camaraderie of band, even if the music is not particularly challenging for them.

ETA: forgot to mention that although DD refused formal piano lessons, she has always been able to play her band and orchestra music on the piano, and has taught herself to play fairly well things which she finds interesting enough to work at- usually minecraft music she finds online, or Journey songs😊.

Also, our experience with sight-reading is like that of HK; my DD is very, very good at it. DS is hard to tell yet- he's crafty with his skills

Thanks for all the input. I ask partly because of an interest in the impact of early musical education on a large scale (think Venezuela and El Sistema). Is early music education a key component in shaping certain cognitive abilities?

I also ask because DS7 is drawn to music and after a few years of cello, he asked to add piano. After three piano lessons, his progress struck me as fairly rapid- sight reading music with both hands (though fairly easy pattern to recognize). I think we understand his strengths and weaknesses fairly well, but we are still in that phase of discovery (and in all honesty, disbelief at times). How different is our child's learning style, rate? He is also very hard on himself in the initial phase of reading a new song- he pushes himself through it, but I've witnessed him hit himself on the head with his fist in frustration when he struggles. My husband says not to worry, if he hurts himself, he will stop the behavior. Once again, he struggles the first few times through his songs, but by the end of the week they are fairly polished (and he is all smiles and proud of his work.) Since he seems to push himself so hard, having some references from other parents of gifted children helps me shape what is "normal" for him.

DD6yo just started piano this August. She practices maybe 3-5 times a week, weekly lessons, and seems to be picking it up quickly, according to her teacher. The teacher discussed realistic expectations (just a standard discussion of a bunch if stuff before starting lessons) and noted she had one gifted student before, but his hands still had to grow before he could do everything his mind would let him do. But even when we called she said six was on the young side and asked about sitting and focusing, reading, so those were two times we had an opening to mention DD's typical abilities. I reiterated that we wanted something challenging for DD, we didn't care about what she could play by what time, as long as she enjoyed it. DD has been very dedicated to practicing and figuring out how she likes to study her note flash cards. She can definitely see how going through practicing multiple times takes her from rough to competent, so I'm very happy that it is something to counter perfectionism.

My ds6 has been taking private violin lessons for 6 months. He learns quickly, but gets frustrated with "not sounding as good as his teacher". In the last few weeks, his teacher has changed the lesson to be half "book work"- learning to read music, and half on the instrument. We have also made 10min daily practice part of his homework. This has made him feel better as his "sound" has greatly improved. His teacher recognizes his natural talent and strong memory. I had eluded to his intellect, but not forth right. My ds is eager for more and faster, but things are working for now. He just can't wait to start playing a song. Last lesson, the teacher mentioned that maybe ds would want to play his own song. Overall, a good experience.

Mr W has taken piano lessons since he was almost 4. The first three months he just played along. Then, one day it clicked and he sight read the music, played the notes, and sang the words on key. We still have the email from his teacher about this saying she was stunned. She still talks about him.

At age 5, he knows hundreds of songs and can dance pretty well, too.

She did not know about him. He pretty much sold himself. His PRI is very high. He did large puzzles at 12 months and was able complete the SET game between 2 and 3 years.

He can sing back a song on key after hearing it once. Then can play it on the piano. Nearly perfect recall of anything he hears even a year later. He loves musicals - he sat through the full wizard of oz at 8 months of age.

My DH is extremely musically talented and won many competitions as a child and teen. It's been hard for him to see that our DD does not seem to be musically talented. In fact, he was worried she was tone deaf. She absolutely is not--she simply is an average singer. He just doesn't understand that an average child takes a while to learn to sing on key--but she improved dramatically from say, age 6 to 9. She also doesn't seem to have much rhythm.

However--and this is interesting--she has been composing music since she was tiny. She had us write down songs when she was two. She was in a music camp this summer where they formed bands, and her band's song (music and lyrics) was written almost entirely by her. The counselors also commented on her songwriting.

I've given her access to my MP3 player, since it has a recording feature, and she records musical snippets all the time. Again, her singing voice is average at best, but when you can hear what she's after, you realize it's good.

So this is all kind of interesting. She's an extraordinarily creative kid, though.

Most definitely.

Our son has been playing for seven years this Fall and continues to impress us. The trick is that he could be phenomenal with just a bit more practice, but after a spirited debate here a few years back, I decided that it was more important that he enjoy himself. He's continued with music in high school and does very well there with another instrument, so I'm satisfied.

He and I both read Tiger Mom and it's very clear that I can't do what Chua did, and it wouldn't work with him even if I tried.

But part of me, yeah, part of me wishes he'd taken piano more seriously. (I'll consider our efforts successful if, in 30 years, he still plays for enjoyment like his mother does.)

Dandy-- same exact story here.

I mean, she plays Bach and Mozart, and she plays Billy Joel and Elton John... and (lamentably) Coldplay. Mostly to irritate my DH, who loathes Emo. LOL.

But she plays and enjoys playing, mostly. That's far more important than a willingness to develop the chops for competition.

My son is hearing impaired and he wears a hearing aid. He is pretty musical. I didn't tell his teacher he was bright. For the last two years, he got a perfect score on our state piano competition's written exam, for music theory. He just started viola lessons.

I'm green with envy of y'all.

I must admit, while I try to accept DD for all that she is and isn't, I am slightly disappointed that she doesn't want to learn piano or any other musical instruments yet. It's not just that she doesn't ask for it but when we gently suggest music lessons, we get a very angry passionate "NOOOOOOOOOOO" in reply.

We never expected her to be a musical genius but she has always shown many indications that she is very musical but maybe musical interments aren't her thing. Sigh.

I tried to teach DS (10) to read music when he was about 5, but he wasn't interested or making progress so I dropped it. Then, when he was 8, he picked up a music theory book we had lying around and completely devoured it -- loved learning about the circle of 5ths, etc. So we started him on piano lessons, and his progress over the last year or so has been very fast indeed. His teacher is wonderful and they are very alike -- math-oriented eggheads.

We don't have to remind him to practice -- he really enjoys the challenge. And physically it is a challenge, but he drills and drills. His math aptitude and easy absorption of theory help him with skills like transposing on the fly.

It is such a pleasure to hear him play, and I am so happy he has found this creative outlet.

My DD7 is phenomenally fast with picking up cello. She started only 18 months ago, but is already very fluent. She's working towards ABRSM grade 4 at the moment. I attribute her rapidity in learning cello to her focus: she is intensely focused and will literally choose to play cello for hours on end. She loves it to bits, which is so thrilling. Her VCI is 155, so perhaps that has helped.

There are marked differences in speed of progress with Piano between two of my children, who have a significant gap in both IQ and level of LDs, my 2nd child having the higher IQ and far less challenges. Both have hyper-mobility and low tone, but the 2nd more so in the hands, which might actually be making the gap less dramatic than it could have been (for which I am grateful).

Agree with ultramarina that composing is a neat facet or musical ability. The creativity is so fun to watch, and it is totally different from the other writing /art that DD enjoys. She is able to write for multiple parts and seems to innately understand the theory and structure well-enough to produce some decent sounding music (having access to really cool computer software that enables this is definitely a plus). We feel lucky our school offers a music theory sequence in high school if she is still interested.

We keep offering my DD9 piano lessons on the theory that that would help her write music. She turns them down because she does not want to practice--although any time she's near a piano or keyboard (we don't own one), she sits and makes up songs. (She also writes songs on her recorder and writes them down.) Her free time is very precious to her, which I understand, given that she is in several after-school clubs she enjoys and has close to two hours of HW a day (yes, really). I guess this is a separate post, but I do wonder if I can enable the interest in songwriting somehow without getting her committed to a lot of time in lessons. It may just be a matter of finding some good software?

Well, it may be tangential, but I'll answer because it is a topic dear to my heart...

Our DD sounds very similar, except we do have a piano and I play, so that has made it easier for her to learn on her own terms. This summer, after a lot of discussion, she did take piano lessons, with the stipulation that it be for the summer only (she also values her free time and has a full plate during the school year). I was lucky to find a teacher who understood what DD wanted from her and was willing to take her on on those terms. They also worked out of a theory textbook each week. DD practiced very little; she is an excellent sight reader, but I suspect this experienced teacher could see through that. But in this setting, that was fine. (The teacher did mention at the end of the summer that DD would be an excellent pianist if she decided she wanted to work at it, but that's a different thread altogether). If you can't find a teacher who will be flexible (or if your DD still balks), does your school offer anything along those lines? The middle school theory course here is half workbook theory, half composing, and the school subscribes to several software programs that facilitate this (DD didnt want to take the course- I suspect she thought it would be too easy, and she may have been right, but she has used the software thanks to her band teacher).

I can't bring up the names of all the programs off the top of my head, but there was a thread about composing that was pretty good some time ago. Noteflight is one, I think there is one called Sibelius, but if I recall correctly it is a paid subscription. GarageBand has some cool features- DD went through a stage of recording herself playing multiple parts and then putting it all together- pretty funny but neat. Also, I don't play guitar, but i wonder if learning the chords and progressions would serve the same purpose? Or even ukelele or something like that?

Gosh, this thread just inspired me to listen to some of the MANY sung snippets she has recorded on my MP3 player. She does this in her room and we don't hear her, though sometimes she shares. Some of them are really lovely. Her lyrics are beautiful. Her voice is slowly developing. She has times when it's just--agh, not good!--and times when it sounds really great--it's quite odd. I don't quite know what to think about that because it seems to me that voice talent is usually quite natural from an early age, but perhaps for some, a voice can be trained into shape?

We keep saying we are at least going to get a keyboard. DH doesn't really play, but he does some electronic music composition and one would be helpful. Music at her elementary school is, unfortunately, bad.

Piano and guitar are the two main instruments that let you pick out notes and play chords (or both at the same time), and of the two, my opinion is that guitar is the far better teacher of how scales and intervals work, because there are no black keys to get hung up on... all semitones are treated equally.

Of course, it's also entirely possible to pick up a guitar, look at some tablatures, and play passable music without ever learning a thing about how music actually works. So there's that.

Check out Reason software. I think it's up her alley.

My dd is 7 1//2 and has been playing for almost exactly a year now. She's started on some easy Beethoven and Mozart now that I didn't play until I was in about 7th grade and had been playing for 5 years. So I think she's moving along really quickly, especially in the last couple of months.

But she's a whiz at memorizing and that's mostly how she plays. Note reading is really difficult for her, and she still has to think about what each note is. She read books at age 3 1/2. How strange is that?

um, it sounds like you don't need to "enable her interest" - she's actively writing, isn't she? I'd let her continue as she is, and I suspect that at some point she'll most likely want further knowledge in music theory etc. It's ok if it doesn't happen right away as long as she's having fun. My ds loves to write songs too - he's taking piano lessons, but the songs he writes have nothing to do with what he studies in his piano lessons, they are mostly inspired by things he hears and enjoys, and just by banging around on the keyboard and finding something that sounds good to his ear. As long as your dd is satisfied she's able to write down and play back what she's hearing, I wouldn't stress over finding her technical help (lessons or online) at this point. Just let her be creative

polarbear

I admit I struggle with the feeling that every child should learn to read music and understand basic music theory, but she just doesn't want the lesssons right now, so there we are. The MP3 player was a "duh" innovation that has really allowed her to do more and enjoy herself, so maybe some other computer tool could allow even more exploration. She can't notate anything except for what she writes for recorder (which is, uh, not the world's most versatile instrument!--but I'm glad she has learned it).

I haven't seen recorder music in ages... is it not regular notation with the usual music notes, bars, etc? If it's not, and if you know how to read music, maybe what you could do is spend just a small amount of time showing your dd what notes correspond to which lines etc on the piano so that she can transcribe her songs - *if* she wants to.

polarbear

Yeah, she didn't learn the staff (sigh). She learned A-G-D-E or whatever the few most basic notes are on a recorder and their corresponding fingerings. To be fair, she was taught recorder in K and 1 at her first school. When she writes songs down that she wrote on recorder, she will just write D-D-G-A-E-A-D or whatever. You're right, though, that this would be easy enough to teach. In fact, for all I know she does get instruction in this in elementary school music.

It was very good for my kids to take private music lessons (violin, piano, bagpipes)because they moved at their own pace (quickly)-- which did not get to happen with school subjects. Also, this was a place they could be challenged, struggle a bit, learn to "try hard"; school was too easy, and these important skills could not be learned there. I learned that to keep the learning going, I had to change teachers a couple of times. Either a child would "outgrow" a teacher or I would see that one of them needed a teacher with a different style/personality in order to work well. The most successful two teachers were probably highly gifted individuals themselves.

So, DD8 decided she'd like to tackle composing an original song for a school project (she could choose any media, so naturally she chooses the most difficult), which put me in the market for some software. I see Garageband mentioned frequently here, but it's only for iOS and Mac, and since we're not an Apple family, that wasn't an option.

Aquinas recommended Reason software. It's $450 after the trial period. No thanks.

I found something called Mixcraft, and downloaded it for trial. The license is only $80. So far, I can already see ways it could have been better, but it gets the job done. I crafted 8 measures of music with two tracks (a melody and a chord progression), set it on loop, and DD was pretty excited by the result.

I found out that DS was gifted after I enrolled him for group piano lessons at 4. He is very musical and has had music around him all his life. He was in a group piano class where it became obvious that his abilities were standing out. They had to go at a slower pace and repeat more often for all the kids to catch up while he got a concepyt on the first attempt and memorized a song after playing it once or twice. I stayed on for a year in that group because of the group dynamics, excellent teacher and the "fun" aspect of it. But it was too slow and I reluctantly switched to private lessons when he was 5. What a difference it has been - moving at his own pace is so liberating for him and he is learning at an accelerated pace. He enjoys his lessons a lot and the opposite of what we feared has happened - he sits still with his teacher for 45 minutes and focuses through the entire time. He also retains all of it!
As the OP said, my child has perfectionism meltdowns when practicing songs for the first time. We are still working on it, but I have been able to convince him to stop hitting his head when he does not get a note correct on the first attempt. It has been very hard to convince him to slow down when learning new pieces and play only one hand at a time for tricky segments to get them right. He expects things to come easily and he is baffled when he has to try so hard at anything. I am not sure if he will continue piano or switch instruments, but he will stay with piano as long as he enjoys it.
It is a good learning experience for our whole family. And no, we never mention his giftedness to anyone - some teachers figure it out themselves when they interact with him. Some other teachers (like in his PS) think that he is not gifted because he gets bored easily and tunes out.

DS 4 has been taking piano lessons for about 6 months. It has been good for him. He struggles with perfectionism and he is learning that practice makes perfect. His teacher says that he progresses quickly and plays as well as some of her 7-8 year olds, although I personally have nothing to compare him against. One issue that has come up that was unexpected is that it seems that he has perfect pitch and that has some how kept him from learning to read music very well. So now we are having to go back and practice just the theory of which note is what on the staff.

Dude-- DD has used Finale Notepad. It's fairly versatile.

One of DW's aunts give us a pretty decent upright piano - apparently nobody wants one these days and you are actually doing the giver a favour by accepting one. Who'd have thunk that? Anyhow...

Dd is teaching herself to read music and play on that piano using the scores of old folk songs etc that the aunt also gave us. I have the musical aptitude of a potato so she must get it from her mother. She appears to find it absorbing and will just keep plugging away with surprising tenacity until she gets a song down pat. We haven't pushed lessons because I don't want to kill the Love. Having heard her learning I have to say that good music teachers must have the patience of an angel and a saint combined because it must be excruciating to their ears at times.

No, I don't tell anyone anything about DS giftedness unless it's somehow relevant. It rarely is. He started piano at 6. Piano teacher told us that he has perfect pitch. He learns at lightning speed. He wishes so badly that his fingers could keep up! Practicing is hard for him because of the desire to go super fast.

Looks good. The only issue I see is that it's all in musical notation or tablatures, and DD8 is still intimidated by that. The things she's capable of playing are more complex than those which she can read/write. Mixcraft has an alternative view where she's basically hitting keys on a keyboard, which is a lot more intuitive and accessible for her at this stage.

It might come in handy with this particular project, though... I might be able to convert her completed Mixcraft project into a MIDI file, then import that to Finale Notepad to produce a printable score.