Since homeschooling is often discussed here, the following article may be interesting. It's from a political site, and I disagree with the premise that asking for more information from homeschoolers is inherently wrong, but I think it is interesting to see what the schools discussed ask of homeschoolers.
http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2013/0...g-against-homeschoolers/?singlepage=trueAre Elite Colleges and Universities Discriminating Against Homeschoolers?
PAULA BOLYARD
Pajamas Media
August 26, 2013
Well, in all fairness, without a curricular standard upon which to judge, the extra requirements seem-- completely legitimate to me. Seems completely fair that extra test scores might be required. Parents are just not unbiased observers.
Asking for "why did you homeschool" is probably a big no-no, though-- as people are NOT necessarily obliged to reveal reasons of disability, and the fact is that such a reason is amazingly common among secular homeschoolers in particular.
Well, in all fairness, without a curricular standard upon which to judge, the extra requirements seem-- completely legitimate to me. Seems completely fair that extra test scores might be required. Parents are just not unbiased observers.
Yes, except no curricular standard exists among b&m/online schools either. A course titled "English Literature" could require one essay per semester or five, one book per semester or five. It might include short stories, poems, and plays, or it might not. And teachers grade all kinds of ways too. One teacher gives an A where another would give a C for the same product.
You're right. Parents aren't unbiased. But why are established schools given the benefit of the doubt? Frankly, I think all schools should have to submit course descriptions and book and assignment lists along with their transcripts, otherwise the transcripts have no real meaning.
Well, except that students from the SAME school are at least hypothetically comparable.
I don't disagree with you, actually.
Right now considerable angst at my house over this very thing. DD's high school transcript 'starts' with her as a
ten er-- nine, I think-- year old 7th grader. You know, before she was really mature enough to understand that those grades were going to dictate the entire course of her life and all...
Yeah, ask her
today how she feels about that B+ in Algebra I and college applications using "unweighted" GPA.
No grade inflation on her transcript, I'll say that. On the other hand, if she were compared on the basis of
actual course difficulty, she'd be a lot better off.
Every one of her classes means that she completed 100% of the course text and curriculum. Not 70%, not "whatever there was time for."
But she is often at something of a disadvantage among administrators that think that "online" means "laughably easy."
Asking for "why did you homeschool" is probably a big no-no, though-- as people are NOT necessarily obliged to reveal reasons of disability, and the fact is that such a reason is amazingly common among secular homeschoolers in particular.
Other common secular reasons are to for high-level sports, entertainment, other competitive pursuits, or generally high ability, all of which can mark a student as highly desirable. Families who travel constantly might also opt for homeschooling as the only way to guarantee stability in their children's educations. Religious reasons could be a red flag for admissions at a secular school, but beneficial for a parochial one. So there are very good reasons for asking.
But yeah, anything that can tempt a school into an easy ADA violation is not a good thing.
But yeah, anything that can tempt a school into an easy ADA violation is not a good thing.
Then should the "challenge" essay be retained?
Ahh-- but that one IS still voluntary on the part of the applicant. They don't actually have to be untruthful to answer it.
My DD has opted to NOT disclose via that essay.
If someone were to ask us "why was your daughter educated at home?" however, it WOULD be a lie for us to not mention her disability.
Because truth be told, that is at least 70% of it.
this really hits home with me as we begin our homeschooling path. DD is only 5, but currently blistering through Grade 3+, depending on the subject.
in my head, we'll find a middle/high school arrangement for her that will get her some normal transcripts - there are several interesting programs in our town that might be a good fit, but they're not for elementary students. in the meantime, in addition to the meticulous record-keeping, DD is eligible for standardized tests through the public board - and we'll do every single one.
i've finally stopped feeling like i have to defend our decision to everyone and their dog(s), but i suspect this kid is probably going to need a serious University at some point, and those folks need data.
High schools provide a profile to the colleges. The profile gives enough information that the colleges get a good idea of the rigor of courses.
The profile might include the courses offered, grading system, GPA/class rank correlation, average SAT scores broken down by GPA range, colleges attended by the prior graduating class by GPA range, etc.
Looking at a past profile for our district, the 40 kids in the top 12% GPA had an average SAT score of 2086. The bottom 20% had an average SAT score of 1484. 91% of students that took AP tests scored 3 or higher.
From that information you can draw some conclusions regarding the rigor of AP/Honors courses at the school. I think most colleges have an idea of the rigor of certain high schools if they get multiple applicants from the HS each year.
I looked at the article briefly and there seemed to be griping about sending SAT Subject Test scores. Those are some elite schools, and whether the Subject Tests are required or not, most qualified applicants (public, private or homeschool) will submit those scores (and if not required, those tests are often recommended for elite school applicants).
I keep telling my kids, "recommended" and "optional" don't really mean you can skip it.
High schools provide a profile to the colleges. The profile gives enough information that the colleges get a good idea of the rigor of courses.
The profile might include the courses offered, grading system, GPA/class rank correlation, average SAT scores broken down by GPA range, colleges attended by the prior graduating class by GPA range, etc.
Looking at a past profile for our district, the 40 kids in the top 12% GPA had an average SAT score of 2086. The bottom 20% had an average SAT score of 1484. 91% of students that took AP tests scored 3 or higher.
From that information you can draw some conclusions regarding the rigor of AP/Honors courses at the school. I think most colleges have an idea of the rigor of certain high schools if they get multiple applicants from the HS each year.
Actually, test scores may or may not reflect the rigor of the courses. What those scores could also be reflecting is the distribution in the intelligence of the students and/or outside tutoring. The 91% scoring a 3 or better on the AP exams has more likelihood of being due to educational quality, but it could also be due to intelligent, motivated students self teaching or getting outside help.
I'm not against requiring students to provide test scores, but *all* students should be subjected to the same requirements as you can't tell from a course name and a grade on a transcript anything about how rigorous the course was.
Yes, except no curricular standard exists among b&m/online schools either. A course titled "English Literature" could require one essay per semester or five, one book per semester or five. It might include short stories, poems, and plays, or it might not.
Not necessarily - our school district's curriculum has very specific standards for each grade/subject.
polarbear
But I think that Kai's point still stands-- neither you NOR anyone else has an especially good idea how your district's "Honors World Civ" class stacks up against John Q Smith Academy's, or Saint Android Preparatory School's.
So it's the same problem, really, that colleges CLAIM entitles them to all sorts of other additional measures of performance in the case of homeschooled students.
Honestly... my DD's unweighted GPA isn't as high as for some of her peers. On the other hand, her SAT scores are far higher, and she and we are not especially thrilled with her performance that day. Her scores certainly don't reflect superscoring and multiple attempts.
So how should colleges interpret that?
I can say what I think it means, and why her math grades are often the areas where she's had "low" grades (A-'s, occasionally) and how that is probably an unfair comparison to B&M schoolmates who have had the benefit of partial credit, a more forgiving pace of instruction, formative assessments and real instruction on a regular basis, but who would even care or believe me? Nobody, that's who. Her courses are those that most of her older peers find BRUISING. Way harder in many ways that those offered in the local B&M schools. That's why her SAT scores top those of her peers with similar GPA's.
We don't spend that much time worrying about it, of course-- because elite admissions isn't our game, really. But if it WERE, that would sure be a sticky issue for me.
Yes, except no curricular standard exists among b&m/online schools either. A course titled "English Literature" could require one essay per semester or five, one book per semester or five. It might include short stories, poems, and plays, or it might not.
Not necessarily - our school district's curriculum has very specific standards for each grade/subject.
polarbear
Yes, but I'm quite sure that no admissions person is going to go digging through your district's website (assuming they even have it posted there) to try to find the standards. And I do know that my district, which is supposedly "the best in the state" does not have any sort of detailed accounting of what is actually supposed to be done in particular courses online or anywhere else. However, as a homeschooler I am expected to provide course descriptions and book lists along with my transcript.
I looked at the article briefly and there seemed to be griping about sending SAT Subject Test scores. Those are some elite schools, and whether the Subject Tests are required or not, most qualified applicants (public, private or homeschool) will submit those scores (and if not required, those tests are often recommended for elite school applicants).
A few very selective schools, including Harvard, require two subject tests in addition to the SAT or ACT with essay. I wonder if submitting more than two subject test scores can help if they are all very high.
It may be a good idea to take an SAT subject test whenever the corresponding class is completed, so that, for example, a 10th grader taking biology (and not planning to take AP biology in 11th grade) takes the biology subject test in June of that year.
For 2E homeschoolers, one problem with using testing to prove academic rigor is that homeschoolers also have trouble getting College Board accommodations. If the CB has denied or given less than adequate accommodations, a 2E homeschooler will not be able to show what he knows. And even if he has appropriate accommodations, 2E kids are notorious for randomly bombing exams even if they know the stuff cold.
This is why my 2E high school student is attending the local community college. Hopefully his As in college level courses will be accepted more readily than my mommy grades. Ironically, the CC classes are *way* easier both in content and in how they grade than anything he ever did with me.
Yes, it is best to take the Subject Test right around the time you finish the class. Two is typically the most required (unless you apply to Georgetown - they require three). However, I know plenty of kids who took more than two or three, especially if they knew they could do well.
Even back in the dark ages (back when they were Achievement Tests) I took four tests - I don't even know if they were required back then. Kids around here have always taken Subject Tests. Perhaps in some areas they aren't as popular, so it seems like a big deal.
I can certainly understand why these colleges require more of homeschoolers. I know a homeschooler that sent a kid to West Point and I know a homeschooler that had an eight year old who could not read. There really isn't any way for the college to know which kid is applying - you need standard measures so you can compare.
For 2E homeschoolers, one problem with using testing to prove academic rigor is that homeschoolers also have trouble getting College Board accommodations. If the CB has denied or given less than adequate accommodations, a 2E homeschooler will not be able to show what he knows. And even if he has appropriate accommodations, 2E kids are notorious for randomly bombing exams even if they know the stuff cold.
This is why my 2E high school student is attending the local community college. Hopefully his As in college level courses will be accepted more readily than my mommy grades. Ironically, the CC classes are *way* easier both in content and in how they grade than anything he ever did with me.
If you're homeschooling for MEDICAL reasons (leaving you outside of CB's general "box" of standard accommodations), good luck getting any appropriate accommodations at all. It took all of our school counselor's considerable guile
and my chops as an advocate to manage it.
There's a huge reason my DD never participated in talent searches or took AP tests. That's it. It's a huge pain.
The other interesting thing is that homeschooling is WAY more common among families with kids who
have medical conditions that are/can be life-threatening-- asthma, diabetes, food allergies, seizure disorders, etc.
Adding more proctored standardized testing is not a trivial matter if you're one of those people. We know.
In 2008 the NYT interviewed college admissions deans, and one of the questions was about homeschooling. The Yale dean appeared frosty toward homeschooling.
http://questions.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/17/qa-college-admissions/Q. and A.: College Admissions
Question
Would you be willing to comment on homeschooled students and the college admissions process? We have four children we are homeschooling and we hope to continue that up until they go off to college.
—Elizabeth
Question
Do you have a bias against homeschooled students? They don’t always have the classes available to them, such as AP, honors, labs, etc. If you don’t have a bias, what do you look for in a homeschooled student? The transcript may include nonstandard courses. How do we let a school know, other than with standardized test scores, how they might be a good fit for that school?
— Leslie Howard
Answer
Mr. Walker of Texas: Homeschooling is a more recognizable educational enterprise than it once was. This has made directors of admission more comfortable with their ability to properly evaluate a student’s readiness for the rigors of a challenging college curriculum and a student’s social adaptation skills. We recognize that there are many ways to get a rigorous education, and AP and honors classes are just two of the most popular examples.
We probably provide better service and a more complete and personal evaluation of our homeschooled children than we do to our more traditional applicants.
While homeschooled children present slightly different application materials, the differences are shrinking. We are seeing parents become more entrepreneurial in finding good educational experiences for their children, and more parents are pooling resources to provide the more specialized subjects in the sciences. The Web has allowed for a much broader and more organized enterprise than was ever possible. Even the term “homeschooled” has become a less accurate description of where learning takes place. The term is more descriptive of where the administrative staff resides and where the student’s “home room” might be.
Answer
Mr. Syverson of Lawrence: We welcome homeschooled students. Just as with high schools, there is great variation in the strength of the preparation we see among homeschoolers. And in many instances, because they are not presenting a traditional set of credentials, it is important for homeschoolers to be particularly thoughtful about what they will include in their application. Some will submit a number of SAT subject tests taken over the course of several years as a way to document their mastery of these areas. Others will prepare for AP exams as another way to document, with a traditional metric, the rigor of their work. Many will submit one or more substantial works they have done as part of their courses.
Answer
Mr. Poch of Pomona: I do have skepticism about some versions of home schooling. We will seek concrete evidence of preparation which may, for better or worse, fall both to a wider range of standardized testing but also to evidence of collaborative work with other students both academically and socially. The home schooled student does carry an additional burden of proof. How to address it?
Good and deep articulation of the courses of study followed. Representation of knowledge acquired and intellectual skills developed. Interview if possible. Admissions officers may rely more heavily upon standardized testing than we would like because the transcript of a home schooled student will carry the imprint of a parent and the references if written by a tutor or parent cannot address questions we would have regarding the engagement of a student with a teacher and peers in a classroom or collaborative learning environments.
Anticipate what we would like to see. Develop a full curriculum and make sure math and laboratory sciences are part of the experience. Even where general admission requirements may ask only for optional presentation of tests or where no SAT subject tests are required, I suggest that the student present those familiar representations of their work and achievement. If the standard expectation of the college is for two SAT subject tests, send more. Send four or five in different academic areas to fully represent a range of academic exposures.
Answer
Mr. Brenzel of Yale: We see only a few homeschooled applicants, and we do occasionally admit a homeschooled student. Evaluation is usually difficult, however. It helps if the applicant has taken some college level courses, and we can get evaluations from those teachers. We are not keen on homeschooled students where the only evaluations come from parents and the only other information available consists of test scores.
I'm thinking that the answer from Pomona wasn't much better:
Anticipate what we would like to see.
Yeah, well-- beyond
common sense that is almost the worst advice EVER.
There's an entire professional INDUSTRY built around that very thing, in case Poch hasn't noticed... and even the pros who make this their profession have enough trouble accomplishing that task over the long haul. Sheesh.
The entire purpose in homeschooling for most people is to garner a
superior education, and to worry LESS about rubrics and benchmarks.
I thought that the second of those questions was, truthfully, a lot more thoughtful than any of the answers-- barring perhaps TX.
It may be a good idea to take an SAT subject test whenever the corresponding class is completed, so that, for example, a 10th grader taking biology (and not planning to take AP biology in 11th grade) takes the biology subject test in June of that year.
You want to be a little careful about this if you are aiming for top colleges. A few colleges require EVERY score to be sent if the test was taken. And the curve is quite steep on the subject tests, I think (so you might think that 700 on Math II is just fine, but in fact it would be 52nd percentile in 2012). So you want to be careful that your kid has not just taken the class, but studied for the test and taken some practice tests with decent scores before they take a SAT II. You don't want your kid showing a bunch of retakes on the tests and some low scores that are never retaken for those schools that require all scores.
Just as an aside, for whatever reason my kid always had trouble scoring well on the Biology test. Maybe because there is so darned much material in Bio...
... and DD scores VERY well on that one (both E and M) and on SAT Lit, but struggles with all of CB's math tests. The ACT math, she's golden with...
Anyway. I think what that demonstrates, actually, is that those tests don't always measure what they supposedly measure. I'm pretty sure that there aren't really major differences in the level of subject competence for my DD and intparent's DD in Biology, for example. I'm assuming that both young women have excellent mastery of that material. It's just that for whatever reason, my DD can get "inside" the subject test on that one, and her DD finds that challenging. That isn't necessarily about the subject itself.
Same with math. My DD has a lot of trouble with the CB format and style of questions.
That raises a lot of concerns in my mind, though-- kids with conventional schooling have a way to demonstrate "kid who doesn't test as well as s/he should" but homeschooled students may not. That really doesn't seem right.
ooh, that's really tricky. The whole meta-skill package of dealing with idiopathic testing and teaching. Additionally is test taking savvy. Those both kind of have some real implications of skill transition from home school to college success.
Yes, but testing isn't the SOLE means of evaluation in many situations in college settings, and even so, college assessments are so UNLIKE anything ACT or CB put together.
I'm astonished that they have any predictive value whatsoever. CB jealously guards some of their own statistics-- they are particularly hard to nail down re: the subject tests. Big surprise.
LOL.
Yes, but testing isn't the SOLE means of evaluation in many situations in college settings, and even so, college assessments are so UNLIKE anything ACT or CB put together.
I'm astonished that they have any predictive value whatsoever. CB jealously guards some of their own statistics-- they are particularly hard to nail down re: the subject tests. Big surprise.
LOL.
Their predictive value lies in that they are essentially intelligence tests. In the vast scheme of things (and I'm not talking about individual students here), higher scores equate with higher intelligence. Higher intelligence is correlated with success in college.
I'm astonished that they have any predictive value whatsoever. CB jealously guards some of their own statistics-- they are particularly hard to nail down re: the subject tests. Big surprise.
Maybe we don't mean the same thing by "statistics", but I actually find them to be pretty open about the subject tests, at least the curve on them. Here is a link to the average scores last year:
http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/sat-subject/scores/averageAnd if you search for "sat subject test percentages 2012", you get a link to a .pdf with all the subject tests and the percentile of each score. I can't put the link in, my Adobe is acting up and won't open the file unless I reboot my computer.
Like HowlerKarma's D, my D2 was very, very good at Lit. She was also able to ace Math II on her second try (first one wasn't so hot). I think kids who read a lot can do well on Lit with minimal amount of studying on various literature forms. I think my D spent maybe an hour with a prep book for Lit. So if your kid is a reader, go for Lit. It isn't about which books they have read at all, so don't worry if they aren't well tutored in all the classics. It is more the ability to read and analyze, as long as they understand the different types of poetry meter and things like that.
Their predictive value lies in that they are essentially intelligence tests. In the vast scheme of things (and I'm not talking about individual students here), higher scores equate with higher intelligence. Higher intelligence is correlated with success in college.
Not all of their predictive value results from their g-loading, although much of it does, according to a recent paper:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289608000603SAT and ACT predict college GPA after removing g
Thomas R. Coyle and David R. Pillow
University of Texas at San Antonio, USA
Intelligence
Volume 36, Issue 6, November–December 2008, Pages 719–729
Abstract
This research examined whether the SAT and ACT would predict college grade point average (GPA) after removing g from the tests. SAT and ACT scores and freshman GPAs were obtained from a university sample (N = 161) and the 1997 National Longitudinal Study of Youth (N = 8984). Structural equation modeling was used to examine relationships among g, GPA, and the SAT and ACT. The g factor was estimated from commercial cognitive tests (e.g., Wonderlic and Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale) and the computer-adaptive Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. The unique variances of the SAT and ACT, obtained after removing g, were used to predict GPA. Results from both samples converged: While the SAT and ACT were highly g loaded, both tests generally predicted GPA after removing g. These results suggest that the SAT and ACT are strongly related to g, which is related to IQ and intelligence tests. They also suggest that the SAT and ACT predict GPA from non-g factors. Further research is needed to identify the non-g factors that contribute to the predictive validity of the SAT and ACT.
Keywords
g factor; SAT; ACT; Grade point average; GPA; Intelligence; IQ; Structural equation modeling; SEM; National Longitudinal Study of Youth; NLSY; Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery; ASVAB
The predictive and outcome-based statistics is what I'm referring to-- CB is quite open (moreso than ACT) about the statistics of each sample population of test-takers, actually.
It's the deeper analysis that is sometimes problematic; the kinds of things like the study Bostonian helpfully provides above.
Because if such tests are valid
predictive tools, then such data ought to be robust enough that there would be good transparency. But there isn't. It's hard to find, and it is definitely not because nobody questions the value of standardized tests in terms of predictive value. A great many colleges themselves even acknowledge that their predictive value is distinctly limited-- and among individual subject tests, that is even more true, evidently.
There is
what CB has to say,and then
there is what
other research has to
say. Not to mention
opinion/observation from the academy itself.
Edna Johnson, a spokeswoman for the College Board, took strong exception to the idea that the subject tests are expendable or limit the diversity of applicants. She called the tests "a fair, unbiased measure" of knowledge of specific subjects. Both students and colleges gain by having this information, Johnson said.
Well-- THERE's a huge surprise... how many students in CA high schools? Hmmmm.. let's see... that value, times $50 per subject test fee... Oh, yes, I SEE the predictive value!
This study from UC-Berkeley is a great examination of the very factors that we're discussing here.
The conclusion is that in spite of apparent differences in curriculum and grading practices, GPA is VERY much better as a predictive measure when compared to either SAT or ACT scores, and that further, the two things aren't even
comparable as measures of predictive value once you look beyond the freshman year.
This one is completely worth the read.
I'd argue that many colleges, certainly the selective ones, actually do have MUCH information about various school districts, especially those from which they get many applications. I have a friend who pre-kids was an admissions officer for a highly-selective university. She had a regional market, travelled and visited schools within the region constantly, and had a very in-depth knowledge of those school districts. So she could, within her region, rank and/or compare districts and private schools against one another. Many universities are staffed this way within their admissions deparmtments.
Interestingly, she's now building a business on the other end -- working with high school students to identify good match universities to them and so she is out building relationships with college admissions officers. It's a much more family-friendly position for her.
Agree- it's one small advantage of staying in a highly rayed district. The colleges are familiar with the district and there is a proven track record of kids who attend these selective colleges every year. I'm sure the admissions people have a fair idea of what to expect when they are familiar with the school and its applicants.
Maybe I'm looking the wrong way at the HS GPA vs SAT score in predicting college success, but I don't get it. My kids participate in college showcases for their sport, so we see a lot of GPA/SAT score info on kids.
My eldest had something a bit below a 4.0, and she will admit, she could have done better in HS. However, I have seen plenty of kids at the showcase tournaments with a 4.0, but they have three-part SAT scores lower than my kid's two-part SAT score. So, these studies are telling us that if my kid and the 4.0 kid attend the same college and take the same courses, the 4.0 kid will likely have higher grades/better chance of college success? I don't think so.
Ah, but are the transcripts otherwise similar enough to comparable? That is, do those 4.0's represent rigorous coursework? Or fluff taken to maintain that pristine GPA?
That's the other thing that comes into play.
Interestingly-- the elite school that DD is in the process of applying to, they also want to know about parental educational attainment and employment.
That makes a great deal of sense to me as a harbinger of a student's likely potential for success at such an institution-- it's a proxy for the values that a student has re: education, for the student's likely native ability, etc.
Interestingly-- the elite school that DD is in the process of applying to, they also want to know about parental educational attainment and employment.
That makes a great deal of sense to me as a harbinger of a student's likely potential for success at such an institution-- it's a proxy for the values that a student has re: education, for the student's likely native ability, etc.
But HK, elite schools ask for parental background so that they can adjust the academic achievement of "privileged" students *downward* to reflect they advantages they have had, whereas your logic would argue for an upward adjustment.
This one seems to be asking for the reason that I posited.
I can see how it can relate to either "legacy" types of admissions policies, or to the practice that you've postulated, Bostonian, but I think that it probably varies significantly with institution.
This particular institution has a reputation as crushing-- but also has VERY low attrition and high 4y graduation rates, so I'm thinking that they actually are asking on the basis of wanting to know who is most likely to find success at the institution, not necessarily looking for SES/racial balance.
Hmm. In my cynical view, I always suspected schools asked about parental achievement and education in order to get a feel for how much in donations they might reasonably expect. ;-)
Oh, I definitely think "ability to pay full-freight" plays into it.
Here is a post describing the extra work that needs to be done, perhaps by the parent, for a homeschooled student to apply to college. The author is a college professor but still calls it "daunting". OTOH, at the Well Trained Mind forum, there are lots of mothers of homeschoolers who have helped their children navigate through college admissions.
http://gasstationwithoutpumps.wordpress.com/2013/09/22/common-app-transcript/Gas station without pumps (blog)
2013 September 22
Common App transcript
As a homeschool parent, I have to do all the “school” parts of the Common App and other college applications, which means I have about as much work to do in filling out college applications as my son does.
The Common App was completely re-implemented this year, which means that there are piles of bugs, poor or non-existent documentation, and a very harried support staff. Basically, everyone is pretty much on their own to figure out how to get stuff done—the interface is far from intuitive. I posted earlier about how a home-school parent gets to become the counselor, but that only gets access—figuring out how to fill out all the parts of the application is still daunting.
There are three main things the home school parent needs to create:
* school profile,
* transcript, and
* counselor’s letter.