Last night DD5 was reading aloud to me (doesn't happen that often) and I noticed again that he makes occasional word substitutions or additions or may transpose or skip a word. They're always small, unimportant words and it still makes perfect sense, but technically speaking, they are errors. For example, he might say, "The children were going to go into this house to find OUT what was inside," when the text reads, "The children were going to go into THE house to FIND what was inside." (That's not a great example. I feel like his changes are even smaller. But something like that.)
He is incredibly fluent and reads aloud at adult speed, with beautiful expression and very, very few word recognition errors until we get into books at a pretty high level. However, he does make these small mistakes and they are not infrequent. I think it may be a result of reading fast and skimming ahead as he reads, but I don't know.
#1--No cause for concern, right?
#2--Is he going to get marked way down on those reading level tests they do because of this?
I have been encouraging him to read a little more slowly and carefully, but that's kind of like telling the wind not to blow.
I think it's actually a sign of reading fluency and not a problem. You would not be able to make small substitutions while preserving meaning in a language you did not know well.
Yes, he absolutely preserves meaning. If you were listening without looking at the page, you would not know he had misread.
Technically speaking, though, these are "calling errors" or whatever. Any teacher with any sense would see that he is an incredibly good reader...but...(sigh).
I should perhaps mention that he has been reading in his head for months and months. (I might be able to look back and see when that transition occurred.) He doesn't get a lot of practice reading aloud.
#1-- absolutely not-- as you observe, it's a matter of fluency, really.
#2-- until about 4th-6th grade, unfortunately, it's a distinct possibility.
Hopefully if they DIBELS him or anything, they'll level with him about what is being evaluated and caution him to be reading exactly what is on the page. With my DD (who also did this and still does, and starting at about this age, too) that was enough. She can read verbatim. It's just easier and more natural to read aloud with meaning and listener engagement as the top priorities instead.
I think as he gets older and into more advanced reading, this can become a problem. Errors which are no worry now may become pronounced later, and lead to significant misunderstandings. You can pack a lot of nuance into small amounts of syntax. For instance, this Supreme Court case over
a comma:
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-comma-in-the-second-amendment-2013-8Big-picture thinkers can use some help developing attention to detail, and I think the sooner, the better.
Not a big deal. I see this with my middle and youngest kids. Eldest speaks in a very fluid manner and always did well in the elementary school read aloud testing. Middle kid didn't score as well (still above grade level) in elementary due to the substitutions, skipping words, etc.
Fast forward to middle school. Testing is read to yourself, not read aloud. Eldest had good, well above grade level test scores, but middle kid was tested as reading at a graduate level (I take that with a grain of salt). I see youngest taking the same path as middle kid (youngest is still in elementary).
we had to explicitly explain to DD5 how to read to her teachers last year - she had this exact problem (but STELLAR comprehension.) once she knew what they were looking for, she gamed the system very quickly.
we said it was just the same as "show your work" for math... and if i remember correctly, i think they moved her up 9 levels of books in one day.
Exactly. It's about flexing to give "the system" what it needs in order to run you through "the machine" properly.
We always used the analogy of DD pretending that she was a letter being "sorted" by automated equipment. Best to not get fancy and to just provide the information on an as-needed and on-demand fashion.
A sort of game all of its own-- little to do with learning/knowledge
per se. Just like Simon Says. It's not the commands that are hard. It's the timing.
I need to follow this thread. My son has the exact same issue. Although, in his case, I have noticed that maybe 50% of the time it does change the meaning ever so slightly. I notice it is more problematic in word problems (math) because accuracy is more important there - it has more of an impact. I'd love to hear suggestions of how to help this. One of his OTS suggested his using the Tubaloo
http://www.amazon.com/WhisperPhone-Solo-Grades-K-4-HB-WPS1/dp/B002UJCYI0 while he reads out loud to me. He's been using it for two months and his reading improved nicely (not sure if it were just developmental or due to tubaloo) but he still skips words and substitutes. I also pretty much make him read out loud to me for 15 mintutes a day. He wants/likes to read silently but with all his word skipping and such he'll only reinforce bad habits... I am hoping the repition of him reading out loud with me making him go back each time he skips a word will help. Anyway, really interested to hear suggestions!
DS7 definitely has vision tracking problems and sees the word order garbled and will read it as such. This is fairly frequent and regular (more than one word a sentence.) It also shows up in garbled interpretation when exact words are important like instructions on a test or sometimes a math problem. Props like his finger or a playing card can greatly reduce it.
In researching this due to potential levelling concerns, references I saw made a distinction that "word perfect" reading became a higher scoring component in 3rd grade for setting reading levels than in lower grades.
p.s. editing as Irena posted before I submitted. We are trying out some tutoring with the word skipping and writing problems to see where that goes.
He very rarely skips or transposes if doing so would make it not make sense. If that ever happens, he immediately catches himself and goes back. So he "hears" himself. But he just zips. I don't have concerns about comprehension--my only slight worry was if this might be some kind of weird vision or processing issue, but my gut says no.
I vaguely recall my DD also doing this at this age. Not sure if she still does or not. I don't think so?
how are his spatial skills? when he draws people, how detailed are they? Does he like to do I-Spy type books?
Spatial skills are great. Draws nice detailed people, though he isn't as ahead in writing or drawing as his sister was at this age. Great at I-Spy and Waldo--loves them.
I spent a lot of time in DS's classroom in 1st grade doing those reading speed tests (they were testing for words-per-minute, not comprehension). The rule was that if a kid missed a word, I was supposed to deduct a point (so instead of marking as 90 wpm, it would be 89wpm). I don't recall what I was supposed to do if a word was added, but it never happened while I was testing. I probably would have ignored it, so it wouldn't affect the final score, unless adding extra words slowed the kid down.
I notice myself doing this occasionally when I read out loud. I'll add a word to a sentence in such a way that it doesn't change the meaning, it's just more like the way *I* would have written it.
DD does it a little bit, too; I don't usually correct her unless it's a major error or change. I should prep her for school, though.
Hm. Well, he reads fast. Whatever adult speed is (I don't know). He is just a beautiful reader, actually. A pleasure to listen to. But he does fudge these little words.
And yes, after I had him read to me I noticed that *I* do it sometimes, too! (Not nearly as often.) The real irony here is that he always catches me if I make a mistake when I read to HIM.
I do things like skip small words all the time when I read out loud to my kids
I get going and am reading at a good speed and it's just a thing that happens. My guess is that there's a good chance it won't happen for him when he reads for a teacher because he's going to just naturally read a bit slower and with more attention - simply because of the situation and being aware of having the teacher listen.
It's also been a while for us, but I thought that when my kids were being tested for reading levels at school, comprehension counted as much (if not more) than actual words read aloud.
Best wishes,
polarbear
I used that thing with my students when I was a teacher.
All of the words he skips he CAN read in isolation? If you made up a page of random phrases like: (it won't let me post this as I want...separate the phrases with large spaces don't run them all together like the board has them)
into the woods after the movie wash the dishes
cut her hair stuff I love etc.
Can he read those with no errors?
I would (if it were my kid) make up two or three pages of random 3 to 5 word phrases and have him read them at a comfortable pace and tell him accuracy counts no skips or additions or substitutions for a set time (one minute or two minutes depending on how many phrases you make up)...count up his errors and total words read. A day later do it again starting at a random starting spot not at the beginning. See if he can improve total number of words read while decreasing skips/additions/substitutions. You can graph your results.
Another thing you can do for fun is retype a selection from something he knows like Winnie the Pooh or another favorite that you have started at the end of a paragraph and retype it backwards.
These fun exercises will let you know if there is a reading problem or if he just needs to focus during reading aloud.
I gave him some of those "test your child's reading level" word lists months ago out of curiosity and he aced them. I forget up to what grade--5th? There's no problem at all with reading words in isolation. Random phrases could be more interesting, but because they would make no sense, I suspect he would also read that flawlessly. It's worth a try.
He very rarely skips or transposes if doing so would make it not make sense. If that ever happens, he immediately catches himself and goes back. So he "hears" himself. But he just zips. I don't have concerns about comprehension--my only slight worry was if this might be some kind of weird vision or processing issue, but my gut says no.
I vaguely recall my DD also doing this at this age. Not sure if she still does or not. I don't think so?
how are his spatial skills? when he draws people, how detailed are they? Does he like to do I-Spy type books?
Spatial skills are great. Draws nice detailed people, though he isn't as ahead in writing or drawing as his sister was at this age. Great at I-Spy and Waldo--loves them.
DD does the exact same thing. Are they clones? Like your DS she rarely reads out loud to me, but when she does I have noticed (for a long time) that she replaces an "a" for a "the", an "on" for an "in" or adds superfluous words that don't change the meaning Just like your examples. She also sometimes just leaves an easily readable word out. They are necessary words as far as grammar, but do not really help in meaning. She is very fluent--overly fluent. She comprehends everything she reads. She also reads really fast.
She does have a vision issue that is often associated with convergence insufficiency and other processing disorders. (She is awful at puzzles and I-Spy books.) I have often wondered if she is showing signs of this in her reading. One thing she does is mix the words "here" and "there" and "what" and "that" all the time. And, she cannot read italics very well. But, she is reading so far above her grade level that I think it might be remediating itself anyway.
She started reading in her head at the beginning of the year and is mostly reading grade three or N-O-P some Q book (finished up Merlin Missions, the Littles, Cleary, Boxcar Children and other random chapter books.) She reads really fast in her head--like a speed reader with her little finger almost going entirerly down the page without going across. It is amazing. She reads nearly a book a night. Her comprehension is okay, best I can tell.
I think it is important to emphasize that every word counts. I tell DD this but I also have not given her any reading instruction since she was about 3. I have just been giving her the right level of book and letting her enjoy it--and things have worked themselves out. She probably wont have a challenging reading test (with really detailed comprehension questions) for a few years I imagine and that is fine, IMO. Hopefully her school will make her read aloud and she will learn to take pride in reading precisely.
Another thing she does is sound out a new word wrong and hold on to that pronunciation forever. This mostly happens with names.
... She does have a vision issue that is often associated with convergence insufficiency and other processing disorders. (She is awful at puzzles and I-Spy books.) I have often wondered if she is showing signs of this in her reading. One thing she does is mix the words "here" and "there" and "what" and "that" all the time. And, she cannot read italics very well. But, she is reading so far above her grade level that I think it might be remediating itself anyway.
...
Another thing she does is sound out a new word wrong and hold on to that pronunciation forever. This mostly happens with names.
Speaking of clones. All of these, with the last one that drives me bonkers.
Name in story: Gertrude
Him: "Gunther crossed the room."
Me: "It's Gertrude."
Him: "Gertrude."
Me: "Do you see an H in the name?"
Him: "No"
Me: "OK. Go ahead."
Him: "Gunther had crossed the room."
Me: *face palm*
She does have a vision issue that is often associated with convergence insufficiency and other processing disorders. (She is awful at puzzles and I-Spy books.) I have often wondered if she is showing signs of this in her reading. One thing she does is mix the words "here" and "there" and "what" and "that" all the time. And, she cannot read italics very well. But, she is reading so far above her grade level that I think it might be remediating itself anyway.
ellenmope, the things you've listed above go a bit beyond what ultra mentioned, and are things we saw happening with both of our dds who had vision challenges (including convergence insufficiency). Our older dd had really severe vision challenges, and was reading behind grade level until we discovered the vision issue and went through vision therapy, but our younger dd had a milder vision challenge and she did well on comprehension with higher-level books because there was more text to put together to understand what was going on even if she missed a few words. However, reading was still difficult for her (even though she was reading ahead of grade level), not difficult to comprehend but difficult because she had to work harder than most of us do to read the words on the page, which did hold her back from moving ahead as quickly as she might have in reading.
I can't remember if your dd has been evaluated by a developmental optometrist or been through vision therapy, but if she hasn't, it's something you might want to consider (ellenmope, not ultra :)).
Best wishes,
polarbear
She started reading in her head at the beginning of the year and is mostly reading grade three or N-O-P some Q book (finished up Merlin Missions, the Littles, Cleary, Boxcar Children and other random chapter books.) She reads really fast in her head--like a speed reader with her little finger almost going entirerly down the page without going across. It is amazing. She reads nearly a book a night. Her comprehension is okay, best I can tell.
I think it is important to emphasize that every word counts. I tell DD this but I also have not given her any reading instruction since she was about 3. I have just been giving her the right level of book and letting her enjoy it--and things have worked themselves out. She probably wont have a challenging reading test (with really detailed comprehension questions) for a few years I imagine and that is fine, IMO. Hopefully her school will make her read aloud and she will learn to take pride in reading precisely.
Another thing she does is sound out a new word wrong and hold on to that pronunciation forever. This mostly happens with names.
DS7, at 5, made those small revisions while reading his home reading books (from school) aloud. It took me a few examples to realize he was correcting grammar, syntax or improving the fluidity of the text. Once I clued in, the next time it happened I told him that his revision was correct and that I was impressed he caught the mistake. Then I explained that even if the text could benefit from improvements, he still had to read it the way it was written for his teachers. Which left him both pleased with himself and reasonably happy to comply. Plus now he revels in catching me in the same revisions!
I think fluent readers do this instinctively - including in their heads while reading silently. I was actually delighted when I realized what DS was doing (after I made him read the text as written and saw that he could, of course!).
... She does have a vision issue that is often associated with convergence insufficiency and other processing disorders. (She is awful at puzzles and I-Spy books.) I have often wondered if she is showing signs of this in her reading. One thing she does is mix the words "here" and "there" and "what" and "that" all the time. And, she cannot read italics very well. But, she is reading so far above her grade level that I think it might be remediating itself anyway.
...
Another thing she does is sound out a new word wrong and hold on to that pronunciation forever. This mostly happens with names.
Speaking of clones. All of these, with the last one that drives me bonkers.
Name in story: Gertrude
Him: "Gunther crossed the room."
Me: "It's Gertrude."
Him: "Gertrude."
Me: "Do you see an H in the name?"
Him: "No"
Me: "OK. Go ahead."
Him: "Gunther had crossed the room."
Me: *face palm*
OMG us too, LOL! As I have posted before, my DS does have vision issues (convergence issues) and much has improved with VT but we still have the issues of skipping words and adding words. And we have this 'Gertrude/Gunther' problem too... Almost always with names, I think. It's nice to have some company in chaos
...
He does not do the thing with holding onto a mispronunciation. One thing he does do a little of is lose his place. He will very quickly read much of a long sentence, pause, and repeat a couple of words--I think while he scans ahead. "Corduroy was a bear who was involved in covert secret ops missions in department stores under top-secret government mandate, but feared being caught by special forces--so one night, when he...when he unexpectedly came upon a CIA agent, he..."
(uh, not an actual excerpt)
Have you ever seen that trick where a common phase is laid out on two or three lines, and a word repeats, but right at the line break: ie,
Can you
you spot the
mistake?
Here is a link to a better one:
http://www.marcofolio.net/other/15_cool_word_illusions.htmlWhen things don't read as well as we would expect, sometimes our brains just naturally substitute what "ought" to be there. I think it is just a sign of knowing the language very well. I do it, my son does it, and this is what makes proof-reading your own papers after a long day of working on them not very fool-proof. It really is a cool aspect of how our brains work! I also like the one where you can only have the first and last letter of a word in the right order, and still read it just as fluently.
LOL-- DD still holds on to mispronunciations.
Sometimes this is hilarious-- because she'll "fix" the pronunciation in her head through silently reading it and gathering the meaning contextually or something, and then it becomes darned near impossible to remediate without making a big deal out of it.
Disciple, for example. Who in their right mind would assume a long vowel pair in that word?? But the two short-i vowels sure sounds... hmm... ODD in conversation.
Lately, I have been correcting her by pointing out that if she calls it Bran-DEEZ, they probably won't let her go there for college. LOL.
DD total reads like this, and insists on her own name pronunciations sometimes. I think it's because they read drinking up big chunks with their eyes--that's how I read, and my mom, but her best friend insists she reads through every single word, and I imagine many beginning readers do as well. I did remind her to read carefully a bit while reading to her teacher. It's cool to hear about these similar readers!
Have you ever seen that trick where a common phase is laid out on two or three lines, and a word repeats, but right at the line break: ie,
Can you
you spot the
mistake?
Here is a link to a better one:
http://www.marcofolio.net/other/15_cool_word_illusions.htmlWhen things don't read as well as we would expect, sometimes our brains just naturally substitute what "ought" to be there. I think it is just a sign of knowing the language very well. I do it, my son does it, and this is what makes proof-reading your own papers after a long day of working on them not very fool-proof. It really is a cool aspect of how our brains work! I also like the one where you can only have the first and last letter of a word in the right order, and still read it just as fluently.
This is why I tell my college students to read aloud their final version - when you read silently you skip and substitute what you think it says. But more often than not the read aloud will catch the mistakes. I think because its a different part of the brain than was doing the writing. But that's just a guess.
DeHe
I read each and every word and sub-vocalize each one. Though I often forget to reread stuff I write and type past words, I always see the extra the or you or whatnot. But I think my approach is how I learned to fix and cope with the floating text vision issues; if I read with only my rght eye it floats all over the text in little loopy loops, and if I at the same time try to read without saying words it takes many times longer and word recognition is much harder with words longer than around seven letters. Now I'm wondering about coaching ds with sub-vocalizing or hope he discovers his own way.