DS just turned 5 in Feb. We are considering advocating for a grade skip (K to 1) next year, but I'm concerned about his writing skills, which don't seem so great to me. My DD was a very good writer and excellent speller, so I really don't know what is age-appropriate here. I am going to transcribe some sentences he wrote in a grade 1 reading workbook, without help (in response to comprehension questions)...are these like early K, mid K, late K, grade 1? The words that are correctly spelled are mostly copied from the provided text. My guess is that this is mid-K level, but like I say, maybe I'm way off? DD started K able to write much better than this.

I woud llik to ried a mery-go-roned

I woud not llike to hiik up bread loaf mountain

Becus its funy

I woud llik to see his dictionary

I woud not llik to to get so hot by a volcano so no

No becus its to snowey

Pensmanship is basically legible, but not great by any means. Letters are mixed caps and lowercase--no punctuation yet. Occasional letter reversals, but not a lot.

He answered all the reading comprehension questions correctly--in fact, they are too easy. He can easily answer reading comp questions for grades 2 and 3 and is reading 3rd-5th grade level books.

I have no idea ... but I LOVE his consistency! I too am curious to see what others have to say to compare when DS4.5 gets to that point.

I think that it probably past K. But, I would not necessarily advocate skipping K with a kid who writes like this and has occasional reversals, mixed caps, etc. It sounds to me like he needs a bit more phonics training which he would get in K. From my experience, kids who teach themselves to read at a young age do not know phonics well. This can cause problems in spelling and reading later on when they don't know the words and cannot sound them out. You may think about doing K and 1st and then skipping 2nd.

Oh, he can sound out anything. He was a phonics-based reader initially. I can't imagine that he would ever have any reading problems. It's just not going to happen. He reads aloud like a dream--surely 100+ wpm, with expression and vivacity. But obviously, the writing is way behind the reading. My DD never did anything like the "llik" that we see there (he does that over and over--??) so some part of me is just a bit confused. He doesn't really LIKE writing, but he doesn't hate it. Drawing skills are mildly advanced, but maybe by like 6 months.

Looks very good to me. Letter reversals and spelling will correct--unless you are at a school that doesn't believe in inventive spelling, in which case it might need to be taught before skipping. The sentence structure is good. It would be good to see him string together several sentences. I think first graders usually end with a conclusion from what I remember, like in the sentence where he says, "so no".

There's the writing process which looks like he is fine. Then there's the writing phonics, getting all the letter sounds in there. If every syllable is represented by a sound and you have some 3 syllable words, I think it's good enough.

Here's a link to info:
http://www.readingrockets.org/looking_at_writing/first_grade/writing_sample_1/

If you aren't sure, go into school and look at the writing on the wall. (Or ask an expert, which I am not)

Okay. His writing is more legible than many of those samples. It helps to see how they spell. I guess my DD was just completely in another category here--she never made any of these wild guesses. DS seems to be much more age-typical in his spelling ability. I just find it confusing--how can he read as well as he does and not know how to spell "like"? Brains are weird!

I understand that reading and spelling aren't linked. I can' recall where, but somewhere in this forum there was a thread on it. You can be very gifted in language, but still a terrible speller.

Just taking a wild guess here ... but I'd say he's spelling this way because he's used to reading phonetically? As opposed to if he was a sight reader, he'd know how to spell the word because he'd have the whole word memorized? Like I said. Just guessing here.

Interesting concept Mk13. Ds5 has never sounded words out, seemed like he just read one day. He has always been an excellent speller and was never taught how to.

I can confirm it doesn't work that way for my sight reader. Spelling is its own thing. And his reading guesses are fantastical (good and bad that way.) I'd say for a sight reader who uses pattern matching it is more like I can smell a carrot cake baking, but I couldn't tell you all the ingredients, their quantities, or put them together in the right order, etc.

We needed writing samples for DS7, but couldn't even guess where he was. I couldn't find an online resource, nothing. But when I walked down the hall at his school and saw the stuff posted, I was pretty confident of where he was in a short period of time and what the next level skill looked like.

The big thing I learned in exploring that topic, is a single sentence isn't enough to answer the question. The common core has complexity using a picture and words to explain it. Kindergarten definitely included concepts at a paragraph level as a standard. I think spelling is a different standard.

I think he has discovered a new letter.

The long ll.

It sounds like typical example of asynchronous development.

He seems to spell phonetically which is a good start and upper case/lower case and punctuation comes in 1st and 2nd grades. I think our kids learn quicker using phonics and sounding out.

I remember my DD spelled "tisshoe" instead of "tissue" when she was little. They will make mistakes but 8 out of 10 times, they will get it right.

Or he's really a Welsh changeling.

Maybe there's a Llewellyn in his class.

Yes, writing is by far his weakest area. As I say, I have no idea what is actually expected in K and 1st because DD was so far beyond expectations in this area.

I asked him if he would write me a story this afternoon, and he cheerfully obliged, as follows:

Once there was a gulper eel that made friens
He met a pram bug
He made friens with it
H liked him
He askt foer a play daet.
He playd.
Goodbyy sied his friend.
Goodbyy he sied.

He asked for help on how to spell "once," and I reminded him about periods (which he did here and there, but not always, as you can see).

It's a clear narrative, but not exactly, uh, complex.

(ETA: Gulper eel: http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2007/rattray_mari/GulperEel.jpg Pram bug: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blo...mesoplankton/image/image_view_fullscreen You know, for visual reference.)

Yes, but the denouement is quite poignant, so he gets points for that.

Ultramarina, DD's output at five would probably have been LESS than that, but the punctuation and spelling would have been perfect for what she DID produce. Writing is also easily her weakest area academically. She would NOT have produced such robust writing at 4.5, in all likelihood. In fact, I have samples from when she was almost four, and they aren't as detailed or complex.



I think that there is a pretty wide range of "typical" for kids in K-2. I know a few kids who would still have been using phonetic, invented spelling for some words as late as late 2nd or even 3rd grade, though. It looks to me as though he actually KNOWS how to spell most of what he is using.... he's just really, really focused on the physical task of writing at this point, which is probably completely age-appropriate even as late as 6-7yo.

I'm guessing here, but solid 1st grade doesn't seem like a reach in any way.

He has never written anything of that length before. I have never really encouraged him to write, though he writes his name and practices letters at preschool. One thing in his favor is that he's a dream to teach--easy to lead. I just haven't wanted to turn him off writing and he hasn't seemed inclined--but I could probably "hothouse" him along quite easily over the summer to get him used to the idea of writing a few sentences in response to a prompt, etc. He had no trouble composing--just sort of, oh, I could write a story, eh? I suppose I could. La la. Here you go. (DD was different...she was clearly driven to write from very early.)

I'll second that as the best way to sum up what an individual school's expectation is going to be. The schools my kids have attended and the schools my friends' children have attended have all had different approaches to early writing, and writing samples can look very different from school to school based on what each school emphasizes. My kids' school, for example, cared about the thought process behind the product, guided the kids from explaining a picture into sentences into paragraphs, so that by the end of K the students would be given a picture and expected to write 2-3 sentences about it, sorta paragraph form, definitely tied-together meaningful story form. OTOH, the school believed in using inventive spelling - let the child spell the word however he/she wanted to, so that the act of figuring out how to spell didn't take away from the process of writing for meaning. Likewise teachers didn't worry about neatness or letter reversals etc. OTOH, some of my friends' children were in schools where the early emphasis was on spelling and simple sentences and grammar/punctuation etc - so you would have seen very different writing samples on the wall at each school.

Best wishes,

polarbear

DS gifted/accelerated school really pushes writing and writing development, which has been physically tough for DS with his fine motor stuff. In his K class which was doing K-1st work, they taught the inventive spelling to not distract them from getting thoughts on paper. In 1st where they are doing 2nd and 3rd, now it's spelling and spelling correctly. So the spelling issues are tolerated to get them writing but then they drop that approach pretty quickly. They are taught both non fiction and fiction writing and these kids are writing tons - even my kid.

Ultra - your DS writing almost sounds like it would have worked for their K poetry unit. But the issue or difference I think between K and 1st gifted or not, accelerated or not, is stamina. Most K kids can't sustain the writing or the thinking associated with it - that's what they built over time. DS school builds it quickly but it still has to be developed. Interestingly, advanced reading seems to complicate matters as the kids with the bigger vocabs try to use them and get stuck on spelling. Seems like the teachers are more understanding for misspelled big words at this point but expecting perfectly spelled from their word lists.

DeHe

It may well be that he is in a K/1 split anyway, in which case he could do something like start off the year doing K writing and then switch into the gr 1 writing. The kids are not likely to be advanced for the most part. However, we are told that the school is very open to full skips and he is otherwise a very solid candidate.

I guess the question is whether to take the writing weakness as a sign that K/1 is the better choice or to not worry about it and go ahead and try for 1. He is VERY dissatisfied with preschool right now, though his behavior is excellent. We are on the verge of school refusal. We will have some other tricksy issues if he goes to 1, though.

AFAIK he will be IQ-tested in K, so we will get that info.

You know, my daughter sounds kind of similar. She read anything, and still does, and could write letters but didn't really want to write much, until she started K this year at nearly 5.5. She's really blossomed as a writer, though her hand gets tired. She's learned how to really do punctuation, dialogue, a lot of spelling, etc. but going into K, eh. So I think it's not necessarily a sign of a potentially lingering weakness. The split sounds ideal, especially because then he'll have friends moving to second.

This is exactly how I would describe my DS5's reading ability. It is as if he has read each sentence in its entirety before saying it aloud so that his intonation and expression are spot on. My DS's writing is far behind his reading ability as well. He is currently in K at a Montessori school and answers reading comprehension questions aloud during class. His focus in writing for school at the moment is on correct letter formation, word spacing, and punctuation. His writing is legible, but has to focus very intently and writes slowly. He finds it challenging and doesn't like writing at school a bit. He writes on his own at home, but mostly writes short phrases or makes signs to post around the house. It sounds from many of the replies here that we may need to do some supplementary writing work at home before we switch to our local public school next year for 1st grade.

I think different schools and districts emphasize different skills. However, it would be solid mid to late K level for our school. The issue is really how much your DS can improve by August and where you are comfortable for him to fall within his class. For our school, tracking starts in 1st grade so he would not be at the level of the top performing kids if placed in the pre-GT 1st grade. While reading comprehension is important, the students in our school are judged on their written output so lagging writing skills could jeopardize GT placement. That's not meant to imply that your DS would not thrive in 1st grade because chances are that he will make a substantial leap between now and August.

GT placement has nothing to do with writing skills here--it's done via a group screening test followed by an individual IQ test (this is given if the child scores high enough on the screening test).

He is definitely nowhere near the writing proficiency level that my DD was at when entering first grade. (She was using semicolons correctly at 6.)

I could suggest asking him about the double l's. IME, gifted kids usually do things that don't make sense to us but make sense to them...i.e. they spot a pattern that others don't see

Or maybe he just likes it that way.

I have a friend whose name is Lloyd. Never occurred to me to find out why there are two L's at the beginning of his name...

Beyond that, a language arts specialist can tell you why and also tell you what to do about it. Can you find someone nearby? Probably need a couple hours of evaluation and ask them to write up the recommendations for the next step.

That being said, he is certainly developing much more rapidly than the average kid his age and I think you are right to question whether or not to go to kindergarten.

Oh, well...I'm not concerned, per se. That is, I assume he'll be fine, at this point. If he is still spelling like that at 7, I'll be worried. But he has very little experience writing or spelling words. Interestingly, after just a few more episodes of practicing writing, he has started asking me "How do you spell..." much more often. I believe the schools often discourage this, preferring the children to rely on their own spelling concepts, but my DD could never cope with this ("Just tell me how to spell it!!") and DS seems to be moving in this direction. I don't see a problem with this habit myself as long as the child is producing written work easily, which he is.

I just asked him to spell "like," and he spelled it correctly (orally). Who knows??

Without using the power of the Internet, I'm going with the theory that he has two L's for the same reason that Llewellyns have two L's.

DS skipped K into gr 1 with not a lot of writing experience (knew letters but preferred using capitals. Within a few weeks he was writing sentences, in lowercase with mostly accurate spelling. His spelling is coming along quickly because I suspect he has a photographic (or close to it) memory. His writing is about the same as 70% of the class. He likes to spell correctly too - he has read so much he knows once he has written something phonetically when it is wrong.

I think the point of this is to encourage writing as an enjoyable activity, not to actually discourage correct spelling!

Enjoyable and independent, I think. It's a problem in class if a child is so reluctant to invent a spelling that they get blocked every third word waiting for the teacher to give them a spelling!

I'm hoping some of you good folks might have some thoughts about my 6yo son in Gr 1 who is facing similar problems as many of you have written about. He has a longstanding hate of writing that began before Kindergarten when we stared working on printing his name (only 5 letters!). I was concerned about this, so had him assessed by an OT. He came back with moderate fine motor troubles. On trying to get his K teacher to provide any supports, she promptly whipped out a sample of his name he had done, and stated "this is perfectly normal printing for a 5yo boy". Needless to say, the balance of the year did not go well, and the teacher and I did not see eye-to-eye. She also flat out refused to support his then obviously advanced reading skills and told us just to let him read more things at home.

The summer before gr 1(different school) we had DS assessed by the Psychologist, mostly looking for more 'official' documentation for the printing problems so we could ensure supports in a more formal way. Results from the assessment gave us more than we were looking for! - now we have a LD + gifted identification (not a huge surprise to us as our son has been reading well since before Kindergarten, started talking very young and was using sentences before 1 year of age.)

He is currently in a private school setting, that provides general education in an inclusive setting. His classroom is small (13)and his teacher is this year is fantastic. That said, we finally received an individual program plan, and there is not a single goal about his giftedness at all, except for additional info around classroom assessments which place his reading at a gr 4-5 level. His report card is really outstanding in most everything unless it involves printing, which he doesn't get a grade for now that he has an individual plan. His printing is still hard work.

His teacher has concern that his attention and concentration is poor, but the psychologist indicated it was her impression that this is largely related to the fact that he is bored at school and that the printing (when he is most inattentive) is really very hard for him, exhausting him long before the other kids.

So after that long-winded explanation, my questions for the more experienced parents are this:

1) I am not the 'crazy' parent this year, compared to last - or at least I don't think so! - but I feel a bit worried that will change quickly if I push the desire to have goals in place for my son's giftedness. How hard do you push - do you take the good where you can get it and simply try to limit the less good parts?

2)I already tried talking to his teacher about him telling us he's bored - his very good teacher flatly denied this is true - so I feel a bit stuck trying to suggest he needs more - though when I asked him why he keeps telling me he hates school because he loves to learn stuff he clearly stated "Mom, we don't learn anything at school except in science - I already know all the stuff we talk about". In her defense, once he is at school he does seem pretty happy there.

3)he is getting really quite good accommodations and remediation for his printing, and has made good progress - is this enough for now? My worry is that if he looses interest in school (already says he hates it, fights going some mornings, but seems happy once he is there) it will be hard to recover.

As an aside, there is no room in the gifted school (a semiprivate school), and none of the public school divisions offer anything until grade 4. We feel we can't keep changing schools every year, but we don't know what action to take.

It is my thought to go to the principal and ask what the school's overall plan is in terms of supporting gifted students, while being very clear how much I appreciate how much support his current teacher is providing. The school mandate states they support students with LD's, and they seem well prepared in this regard, but I do not know of any teachers providing supports for gifted kids (small private school). I do know another family that is leaving from a different grade because they have not been able to get any acceleration or enrichment in their gifted son's educational plan.

Sorry for the long post - Any wisdom would be much appreciated!