An interesting article from the perspective of a longtime teacher who is eager to publicly share her cluelessness about gifted kids:

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/ever-okay-label-kids-201300635.html

Ick. I thought there might be some hope when she stated the following about her son, who has executive dysfunction issues:

"To be fair, I see what people mean about labels for my son. I don't talk about him using labels with new people we meet because I expect that they should get to know him. If they ask me about how different he is, though, it really helps to discuss how differently his brain works."

But no. She obviously has no clue about what gifted is, including the fact that GT kids' brains work differently.

Maybe she actually does know, but doesn't know she knows because she uses the label "truly gifted"?

20 years times 20 students = 400 total students. She said she knew less than a dozen "truly gifted" students. 3% of 400 = 12.

Perhaps her district uses only achievement tests for GT placement?

Naah... I think clueless is a good label here.

I wouldn't mind this math, except that she is a school administrator, not a classroom teacher, so I assumed she had been in contact with many more kids. I think there might still be some hope with her, though, if she meets a parent of a 2E kid who helps her in dealing with her son's EF issues.

There is 22 grade schools in my daughters district. There is approximately 800 5th graders like my daughter. Including my daughter 15 go to the magnet school. Thats about 2%. Her number seems right to me.

What prompted me to label her response as "cluelessness" was the anecdote about the little girl, Alexis. Viewed from the prism of my own parenting experience (of one of those "truly gifted" girls), it reads to me like a textbook case of an underachiever who has gone underground with her abilities at an early age. And here's a trusted teacher, who had an opportunity to inspire her, who helped her hide instead. My own DD was headed down this same road before we brought her up short.

To too many teachers, "gifted" means "likes jumping through hoops." If your child is labeled gifted, and they don't choose to do more of those math problems that are 2 years below their level, well, that's not what gifted looks like.

I liked this response to her in the comments:

"I see. So, labeling YOUR kid is OK because it "helps to discuss how differently his brain works" but labeling some other kid with a different label (gifted) for exactly the same reason is not OK? Why does this sound like the bitterness of a parent whose kid is not gifted but who still wants her kid to be "special" and to be excused for any failings? Your anecdote about Alexis is more about one mother who is a freak about her kid and less about the value of labels, ostensibly the point of your article. All parents of gifted kids are no more like Alexis's mother than all parents of little tennis players are like Richard Williams (feakazoid father of Serena and Venus).

Your article makes me think, as I have before, that maybe we SHOULD stop using the term gifted anymore, since so many people, especially educators who like to say things like "all kids are gifted," refuse to acknowledge that giftedness exists. So let's just start saying "some kids are smarter than other kids" and go from there. It's true, and this ridiculous attempt by the education establishment to pretend that it isn't so as to ensure everyone's strong self esteem doesn't change that fact. Most kids are, in fact, not THAT stupid, and THEY know perfectly well than some kids are smarter and some are dumber, whether educators acknowledge it or not. And on some level, specifically that of raw intellect, these exceptionally smart kids (aka gifted) ARE "more special than all the other children," just the way some children are more special than all other children in having raw musical talent or raw athletic talent. Schools don't have trouble acknowledging those differences, but for some reason cannot acknowledge differences in intellect, even though we all know they exist. So, Ms. Wickham, with the acceptably labelable son, how about you start saying smart instead of gifted. Will that make you feel better? And, more to the point, how about you acknowledge there are smart kids and start giving them the education they deserve instead of treating them as if they are the same as other kids while asking for special treatment for your son because he has "Executive Dysfuntion" but isn't all that smart?"

Yes, Dude, it wasn't so much the fact that she hadn't seen more than 20 GT kids in her 20 years in schools (she is currently an assistant principal), but her attitude and apparent belief that GT kids are all high achievers and teacher pleasers. Maybe there is a problem in her district with parents claiming that all their kid's misbehavior is caused by their giftedness, but in our world here, the GT kids need help, not someone who appears to not even believe GT kids exist.

It also could mean she got lucky on one test. I"ve read many posts on this site about kids scores dropping when they get older and it's always the teachers fault. Maybe it's just the way things work out. I know this is a simplistic example but when I was in kindergarden I was the tallest kid. I was going to be a basketball player. I ended up 5 ft. 8 in. More my point is some kids just peak earlier than others.

Yup... sigh.

About the one test: possible. Obviously we have limited information. That's just my take on what little is there.

I'm not sure the height analogy fits, though, unless your parents started withholding food. Because it's a common experience for gifted kids that they grow up in a heavily enriched environment, and then find themselves in elementary school, where their needs are all but ignored. If you don't use it, you lose it.

Now, if you were bench-pressing your own body weight as a kindergartener, and the school suddenly switched out your metal weights for foam, that might be a better analogy.

I have no words.


Because they would all get censored.

Well, I was trying to think charitably and assumed that perhaps while she was SAYING "gifted" she may have actually intended "highly gifted (+)" students versus "bright and advantaged" students, and been conflating the two things.

That is, that most "gifted" children identified by schools and placed in gifted programming the way a lot of us have seen it (that is M.O.S., in-class differentiation, weekly pullouts, projects, etc) doesn't really do much that ALL students wouldn't just as readily benefit from, and the label is mostly about parents and not their ideally intelligent (aka "bright high-achievers, not 'gifted' ones") kids.


So let's suppose that she has, as classroom teacher and school administrator known approximately 300 students annually... (that's a rough estimate since we do not know when she transitioned from classroom teaching @ 20-35 students annually to as many as 1000 or more as an administrator)...

well, my math suggests that 0.001 (20 years) (300 students)= 6 students. Assuming that she's in a district like mine, with a LOT of high-achieving kids and terminally-degreed parents (among whom one might legitimately expect an enrichment of high cognitive ability)... supposing that one doubled that value.

Voila-- 12.


While I think that the writer's rhetoric is obviously unfortunate, I also think that her point (while abrasively made) is perhaps somewhat valid. "Gifted" programming all too frequently.... isn't about serving that kids that genuinely NEED it.

Bad analogy.I agree with the lack of information in the story. But it always seems these days everyone is quick to blame the teacher but never the kid.

Is anyone else laughing at the irony there?

She objects to parent-applied labels which are merely excuses for whatever anti-social or non-compliant behavior issues arise in a school environment....


and yet...

apparently it's different when SHE is the one doing it, eh?

Yup. Exactly. And really I found myself so thankful that we have the prinicpal we have because I'd hate to have someone like her... I don't know - the whole blogging thing turned me off and her tone in it, etc... I couldn't imagine our principal doing any kind of blog like that and his tone isn;t like that at all... I don't know, she just really rubbed me the wrong way.

I don't have an IQ score yet on my son (I have an upcoming meeting where I will get some information not sure how helpful it will be, will probably seek out additional private testing). But at the beginning of the school year I asked for a parent teacher conference and brought in a shopping bag with a good sampling of the books that my son read over the summer (which was over a book a day and he also was very active in his sport over the summer so he wasn't sitting around reading all day long). And they (he has two teachers) didn't give me the usual bull that I get from teachers "yes but did he comprehend all these books 4 grade levels above 2nd grade?? and that is why we are going to completely ignore what you are telling us" instead they listened and responded by making appropriate accomodations...(didn't hurt that both of them are taking classes to become gifted certified and later they told me that my ds is the poster child for the gifted child and they are trying out everything they learn in class on him).

See, an IQ is only sort of helpful to me, in the same way that having a diagnosis of autismis, or a point spread in an evaluation for specific learning disability is helpful.

Assuming I worked in a district that does right by gifted kids, I'd want to know what their passions are (even if fleeting), what their strengths are both in terms of scores and in their own perception. I'd want to know what their challenges were in terms of work habits, planning, organization, peer relationships, etc. I'd want to know what they find deadly boring.

After all that, I think I might be ready to write a plan for them.

IMO, the most valuable statement in the OP's article was the third-party comment about labels being a "diagnostic" tool useful in securing access to services. My view is that even the HG/PG/EG labels are still only a broad snapshot of capability, with little insight into gestalt, where talents and motivations lie, etc. Funnily, it seems the most gifted children are the ones who don't cling to labels. After all, was Marie Curie just "a chemist"?

I also wonder to what extent self-serving bias is colouring the teacher's assessments of her HG+ students.

This blog article is exactly why I have sat paralyzed and doing nothing for my DD8. Every time I try to approach the possibility of her being gifted at school, the administrator and teachers make me feel like Alexis' mom, even though my daughter DOES score 99% on the NWEA in Kindy, 1st, 2nd, and now 3rd. And is self accelerated in reading, math, language arts, etc... It is a shame that parents of intelligent children should be made to feel like morons for trying to advocate for their kids to be able to have the academic advantages that they deserve.

I think she is allowed to have her experiences,they are hers after all. She works in a magnet school and probably truly knows kids labeled gifted incorrectly. I believe with the way schools are run in the east many kids are probably labeled incorrectly. I bet there are quite a few assigned non gifted who didn't test well at 5 and quite a few that did test well at 5 and are not highly gifted in the way she would think. I have a son that tested extremely high but I take it with a grain of salt it doesn't matter how he tests. The true test is time as to wether he levels out or not. I di believe a parent can do harm assuming a idea of who a child is at 5 is how they will always be. However I think the sensitivity we feel as parents comes from knowing our kids think different and need additional support and many old fashion educators have a incorrect picture of what gifted looks like, and what support a gifted child needs. I am simply saying from where she lives and her life experiences she might be slightly jaded on the subject. In reality parents prepping for iq tests and forcing the gifted label is truly more the issue and hurts those with true gifted children that need services.

Sorry just want to add it is ironic however that she recognizes her child sees and processes things different but is reluctant to acknowledge that in gifted children. Also the assumption that parents don't hold their gifted kids accountable. I am pretty sure many parents on this site are just like her. They know their child functions different but it doesn't mean they get a free pass on life and responsibilities.

Just wow. What a stereotypical view. Of course an admin deals with some parents like that, but she sounds like such a snarky competitive parent with no professional, informed view of real students' needs. This is just unacceptable that educators are so uninformed... But yeah very typical and not limited to education I know. Ugh!

Are you saying that they are not accepting that she is gifted?

I am saying that they won't even discuss the possibility with me. If I mention the word gifted or accelerated, they tell me that she is bright and doing just fine. Yes, I know she is bright and doing just fine, but her NWEA test scores show me that she knew the entire 3rd grade curriculum in Sept, so I am not sure what they are expecting her to actually "learn" in 3rd grade. I am having her formally tested in Feb, so I will take those results and work from there.

ETA: There is no gifted legislation or funding in my state, so the Public schools are reluctant to test or identify the gifted/accelerated kids, IMHO, because any type of acceleration inside the classroom would require a curriculum change for individual students and would come out of their own budget money.

That's because it would cause serious inconvenience for them.

So they are using denial.

Denial is a standard-issue bureaucratic tool and normally works until it doesn't work anymore.

So, you will need to come up with a solution that involves them acknowledging a fact that they feel that they are being paid to ignore.

I agree. I let their denial shut me down for a long time, they made me feel like Alexis' mom but I am over that now. Moving forward in spite of them, with or without their help (and support).

I'm guessing the boy is a TP on the Myers-Briggs:

http://www.educationaloptions.com/resources/resources_rufs_tips.php

Ohhh... (sigh) been down that road. Oh that poor kid.

Phew. Talk about a tough one. I was in this situation some years ago with a friend.

She was bright, enthusiastic about learning new things, and capable of so much. But she just wouldn't work, and nothing could change that. Not strategies, not letting her define her own tasks as much as possible, not even the threat of losing a job, followed by losing it, and then going down the same road at another company. People would get the feeling that certain tasks were too menial for her, though she never said so out loud. It was more of an attitude that was perceived. If she didn't want to do it, it basically didn't get done, and that was all there was to it. And this was often blamed on others (who were, BTW, trying to help). IMO, there were other problems on the inside that were being expressed as a phenotype of laziness.

Does your student have any emotional or other problems that might be interfering with his ability to get stuff done?

If not, maybe you need to let him fail. He's young and may be able to learn a lesson from the bitter taste of self-imposed failure (as distinct from "I gave it my best shot and lost anyway, and that's how stuff goes sometimes.").

Dottie
boyoboy that student is lucky to have you.

He may have a 2e and rather flunk from not trying than face it. ADD comes to mind as just one possibility. But beyond advising his parents what can you do?

You might have luck with the methods in 'Transforming the difficult child workbook' by Lisa Bravo. offlist me for more details.
Love andmore love
grinity

Hmm...

well, that kind of thing is how task-avoidant perfectionism can manifest. If it's severe and well-entrenched, I mean.

I'm not sure that there IS a way of addressing it externally, however. All you can do is offer little nuggets of counteractive wisdom and hope that something seeps through the mental barricade well enough to make an impact.

I wonder what would happen if you just gave it your all?

It's better to not have regrets about not doing your best.


If you do your best, you don't have anything TO regret, you know.

Yes!! This plus ADD... this whopping nasty combo is both myself and my DD10. It's brutal beyond words. I'm 45 and still don't know what the h*ll to do about it.

Frankly, my DS8 ADHD/language disorder/partial CAPD/possibly HFA/possibly SPD is MUCH easier to deal with. lol. (sigh)

Dottie, is he a student of yours in a school class or a student you're tutoring outside of school (or other?)?

I had a friend in school who was very much like this - he may very well have been the smartest student in our school, but he had an attitude about school lessons in the elementary - middle school years that it was all covering things he already knew simply because he was so smart, therefore he didn't need to do any work (and he literally spent most of the time in class reading books that had nothing to do with the classwork). It was, and still is, a mystery to me how he managed to get passed on to the next grade each year because he never did any work. I am sure he was smart enough to pass all the tests we had, but it just always amazed me that he was never held accountable for participation in class and turning in work assignments outside of tests. I suspect he didn't get the best grades in the world, because by the time we got to high school and we were able to track into honors and AP courses, he was no longer in any of my classes (but he was still attending the same school). He certainly was smart enough to have been our class valedictorian, but he wasn't even sitting in the with the honors ranks at graduation. This was *many* years ago, and the ticket into those honors classes and AP courses was achievement and grades - there was no getting into them simply via a high-scoring IQ test. These, in turn, at that time, were the key to getting into prestigious colleges.

I lost track of him when we graduated - and didn't hear anything from him for years. If you'd asked *him* in middle school where he would end up in life, I am sure he (and his parents) would have been certain he would be a highly-acclaimed scientist who'd made some amazing discovery and won a Nobel Prize or something. I always assumed that, because of his attitude in class, he *must* be profoundly gifted and would end up doing amazing things.

He found me via FB when our graduating (high school) class had one of our memorable-year reunions. He's a computer programmer, nothing more. Very ordinary life. Not the predicted Nobel Prize winner, didn't do anything amazing in life (at least not yet) and hasn't changed the world. OTOH, he's had a very good life. He turned out to be much more humble, now, as an adult, than he was as a child who thought he was "above working" simply because he was smart. I'm guessing the reason he fell out of the honors/ect classes etc in high school was his refusal to do work that he thought was below him... so somewhere along the way his teachers must have started to hold him personally accountable.

I realize this isn't advice at all - just an observation of another person's experience. In the end, it seems to have all worked out ok! He didn't get into a great college, but he got into college. Somewhere along the way he got it that you do have to do work and that profound intelligence isn't an excuse to have the world be your servant. He never set the world on fire, but he turned out ok. I am much more impressed by the nice, well-rounded person he is now than I ever was with his attitude as a teen who thought he didn't need to work. I suspect that the teachers who finally did hold him accountable and responsible for doing his work did make a difference for him.

polarbear

I too would leap to the possibility of 2e before concluding laziness.

Lots of kids with autism never learn to follow the world's rules and priorities--the ones who cannot accept instructions typicallyend up unemployed regardless of IQ.

I would suggest cognitive behavior therapy. A skilled therapist would help the child see the relationship between his actions and the likelihood of achieving his goals.

DeeDee

Dottie, what does this student answer when asked why he doesn't work?

Here are some ideas to explore...

It might be a mindset issue. Not sure if you've read that or not:
http://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Success-Carol-Dweck/dp/0345472322 In that being told he's smart and even "too smart for school" you either can do or can't.

Another possible/related lens: There is no consequence of failure that is anywhere as tragic as bumping into your own limits. i.e. If internally he believes he can do anything, then as long as he doesn't try he never finds limits.

Some of the mindset concepts get into exploring metacognitive skills. Maybe directing him towards metacognitive development along with study skills ex situ will get him to the skills. Rather than hitting a wall he'll have the tools necessary to surmount it. There is a bit of confidence building that works into this.

And opposite that: Is he autodidactic outside of school? If so perhaps his style is so out of whack from school approaches that conformity to a system less effective than his own is trying. Maybe an opportunity to do some school work independently would light his fire.

Maybe he has yet to encounter his bailiwick and is a very intrinsically goal oriented person. Perhaps exploring careers and colleges and talking to people in fields of interest would fire him up.

On the other hand, no harm in being a happy well adjusted (and well paid) computer programmer who might've been a brilliant highly published and respected researcher.

Yes... sigh. I don't even know where to begin. My son's is "severe" according to the psychologist, and... well, thank God he's smart. That's all I can say. It's really, really hard though. School is a write off without constant intervention. It sucks. He has so much potential... it's really heartbreaking sometimes.

Sometimes I wonder if ADD is partially a consequence of high processing speed. When your mind works at the speed of light and pictures and ideas appear from every mental direction, it can be very easy to get pulled down a series of tangents to the topic at hand (no, I don't have ADD, but I do process information very quickly, and often have to struggle to stay focused).

I don't know much about ADD and wouldn't be surprised if there was also some anatomy or distinct biochemistry at work, too. But still, it wouldn't surprise me to see some kind connection to processing speed (and maybe working memory, too).

Feel free to say YOU'RE SO WRONG, VAL!!!

Val, I don't know, my one kiddo w/ ADD tested with average processing speed, but honestly I don't know that she's really average in processing speed so much as majorly not detail oriented and one who made a ton of mistakes. The two IQ tests I've taken have both placed my processing speed at or above the 99th percentile and she's my equal in speed games like Blink.

I've almost felt the opposite at times. My ADD kiddo is smart enough to compensate so well that teachers assume that she's doing just fine and it is hard to know what to do for her when she's performing above grade level across the board. The typical interventions just don't seem appropriate for a kid who isn't behind. It's also hard to get anyone to recognize that there is a problem. She performs more like a very bright - MG kid than a HG one, but many aspects of her ability really are more HG than bright or MG.

FWIW, we've found that our dd has really taken off with a very structured middle school environment that would have driven her sister crazy and in math especially since she's gotten past the basic math facts memorization stuff. She's coasting through Algebra I where I've seen kids who were much more consistent high performers in the early years struggle once they hit about this point where it relies more on conceptual understanding than rote memorization and attention to detail. The attention to detail thing still trips her up in some areas, but it has been a pretty easy year none the less.

That does make me wonder if our two local school districts are mistaken in how they choose kids for math acceleration, which basically entails the higher performers in elementary school and tracking them into subject accelerated classes as they enter middle school or part of the way through elementary. It works fine in late elementary and early middle school, but I've definitely seen some kids who can't keep up with the acceleration once they hit about Algebra I.

Found this article on PubMed. It's a very interesting article and discusses differences between ADD and ADHD. The author suggests that people with ADD have a deficit in working memory and may also be understimulated.

I've started putting people who meet/work w/ DD into three categories. 1-people who get her (very low percent of people but they are the darling life-savers) 2-people who don't get her but delight in her and are relaxed 3-people who don't get her and think there is something wrong with parenting/child/both and who can drag us down if we let them - sense of humor and long-term thinking needs to especially be implemented with them if I can muster it.

This post reminded me of the principal at the school where she attended K telling me in frustration "giftedness is not a diagnosis we are accepting right now" I'm not making that up.

@ Val: regarding high processing speed and ADHD/ADD. So I'm confused because I thought low processing speed was an indication of ADD. Ah! My DD w/ low processing speed (16th percentile ish) and not so high working memory 27th percentile ish) and very high (high 90s) of the verbal and perceptual reasoning. Testers always note the outstanding block design and matrix reasoning scores, which is nice, but doesn't really help right now with school success/survival.

I think what looks like ADHD in DD is sensory issues as well as nervousness in certain situations...we were at a very cool science center yesterday and the moving around started happening. I think it's just how she acts when she is learning or taking in a tremendous amount of info.

@val again - I was writing my post when you posted that article so I'll read it soon! Thanks

Bzylzy,

Yes, you're right. I did some Google searching after I started speculating. I usually search before...so, my bad.

Val - no worries! Anyway misdiagnosis and fine lines are common with gifties especially 2Es... not an exact science!

I've always thought that was the case with me (just... fast, multi-track thinking/processing). It wasn't until my son was formally diagnosed that all started making sense. If it's just G/T it shouldn't be that debilitating, should it? I actually failed a college level course because the instructional pace was too slow and I couldn't stay focused. Who does that!! ADHD, that's who. sigh.

My DS tested low-ish in processing speed, though, so... there you go: "The discrepancy between is perceptual reasoning and processing speed is statistically significant and occurs in approximately 12 percent of the time in the general population." (The same was true with PR and verbal comprehension, occurring in only 7 percent). Suffice to say he's very, very visual spatial, and really sucky at anything audio/linguistic.

The doc had said there was a lot of the testing that was inaccurate, and I wonder sometimes if the processing speed issues were because of his language and audio processing issues. She thought it was because of ADHD as well.

The "not attending class" option always worked well for me.

Why attend class when you can not attend class and not fail?

Yeah... sigh... that would have been awesome. I wish I'd had the initiative (skip the classes, learn the stuff on my own). Instead I just... stopped caring. (LOL yay!! Such happy stories ;p Ah well. Phase two, now: I'm in a TA program that's relevant enough to my 2e kiddos for me to stay engaged )

Thanks for that article link, Val. Nice to see someone digging at some distinctions and neuroscience between them.

I've been imagining another angle from the G/T side which is heavily mediated/selective attention. Thinking of it as an odd payoff. So, for myself, I don't have a strong base level attention for everything. Many things don't rise to the level of interesting. Interesting, solvable, all these things seem to fire up my norepinephrine to extreme levels. If I can get a frame of reference to find something interesting, then no holds barred on level of attention.

Positing something like a neurotypical mind floats between a 30 to 70% engaged attention level. A fully mediated attention goes from 0 to 100%. At a 100% working memory becomes vast and fluid, things get remembered "forever" and interesting things happen.

Following through this pseudo-thought exercise, other hitches in the distractable (or as mentioned processing to fast range) is that new tangents of thoughts can fire with a higher level of curiosity which pulls the attention train down that novel rabbit tunnel.

this post reminded me of the principal at the school where she attended K telling me in frustration "giftedness is not a diagnosis we are accepting right now" I'm not making that up. End quote

That is quite scary and the sort of thing I am afraid of.

Don't be afraid, consider yourself prepared for something like that or something even different they might come up with...but since you've been reading here first, you should not feel put down or made to feel like you're wrong about your child. Don't become derailed LOL! Have you read Dr. James Webb's book "The Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children?" It's very informative.