Hi everyone! I've been lurking here for a few months, but this is my first post. First, a brief background. My son E is 7yo and in 2nd grade at public school; we live in California. E has never been tested or formerly identified as gifted, but my husband is gifted and our school principal thinks he is. E is certainly a bright kid, and he has many of the non-intellectual characteristics I've read about (very intense, big emotions, sensitive to things like seams in his socks, sometimes loud noises, for example). He reads at a 4th/5th grade level, and his math is about 3rd/4th grade.

E didn't have a great year in 1st grade; he didn't get along with his teacher, but he mostly stayed out of trouble. This year he started off great (with a different teacher), but as the months go on the situation has deteriorated. He gets sent to the principal's office frequently (multiple times a week), has become defiant in class, refuses to do much of his work (both in class and in the office), and is a huge disruption.

We have yet to find a method of discipline that works for longer than a few days. Being sent to the office is no longer a deterrent, and being suspended for a day had no effect. The principal has outright said that E doesn't fit in, and have we considered other alternatives. Unfortunately, private school isn't an option, and I really don't want to homeschool (leaving that as a last resort).

I believe E is incredibly bored and gets in trouble as an amusing alternative to sitting and listening or doing stuff he has no interest in. He has a strong desire to invent a teleporter, and has told me multiple times that nothing they're teaching him at school can help him. He says he doesn't know why he does the stuff he does, and feels he has no control over that aspect of his life.

E now has a 504 plan, even though he has no identified disability other than "disruptive." His plan allows him to miss nearly half of the school day so I can teach him at home. The hope was that if he didn't have to put up with a bulk of the lessons he most hates (language arts is the big one), he'd be able to pull it together for the rest of the day. So far we've had mixed results, but he's still being sent to the office frequently.

I had another meeting with the principal yesterday, who again reiterated that E does not seem to want to be at school, and what did I think I should do about this. The unspoken message is that they don't want him there. I asked that he be given a comprehensive evaluation by the school, to try to figure out why he's not fitting in. She responded that since E was doing well academically (all S and S+ grades), he didn't meet the criteria for a school evaluation. My argument is that I can't take him out of school, and that I want to exhaust every possibility the school can give us. She agreed to talk to the school psychologist and give me the papers to start the process.

I have a formal meeting on Friday, and I need some ideas to present. I only have a vague idea of what our options and rights are at the school, and I'm concerned that I won't make a good case for E.

Thank you for reading my very long post. The past couple of months have been hell, and I know that I am trying to fit a kid into a system that is not equipped or willing to handle him. Any insights at all would be most appreciated!

If you can afford to have him tested do it!
This statement may very well turn into my battle cry because I truly, truly, no doubt in my heart or mind, believe it was the absolute best thing we ever spent money on for our DD. You can see my other posts for more of an explanation on what we've been through so I won't go into all that, but I know where you are coming from - gather your armor and prepare yourself for battle!

Also - look up California's Department of Education website and educate yourself on the laws and parent's rights.

If you haven't found it already, I would look at Wrightslaw: www.wrightslaw.org Their publications and online info are extremely helpful when you are learning how to advocate for your child at school. I agree with 1frugalmom that the best investment I ever made for my 2e children was private testing - so if there's anyway you can afford it or go through insurance to get it, I'd highly recommend it. We started by asking our pediatrician what he thought we should do, and that's how we found the neuropsychologist we used. Our insurance also covered the cost of most of the testing since it was through a medical referral.

The second most worthwhile thing we did was to seek the advice of a local advocate. You can find advocate services at no charge in many areas - we found our advocate through the yellow pages link at wrightslaw - the link is accessible from the homepage, and contains contact information for service groups in every state.

Next piece of advice, put your request for the school evaluation in writing (email is ok); send it to his teacher, cc the principal and cc anyone else at the school that you know might be involved in the process (in our district that would be the special ed staff member, gifted services if there is a person in that position, vice principal, teacher). I'm not in CA so I can't offer you specific advice, but fwiw I was able to advocate successfully to get an IEP for my EG ds - half the battle is simply sticking with it and not being intimidated by what you are told by the school. You need to know what your rights are, and you need to understand as much as you can what is going on with your child (and that's where private testing was far more helpful for us than school testing).

I hope that makes sense - I wrote it in a bit of a rush. Please feel free to ask more questions!

polarbear

ps - the very first thing I would do, today, is to look for a local advocate's group on wrightslaw, and if you find one, call them up right now and ask them everything you've asked us here.

highly skeptical of school personal and mental health until current new cycle is over.

Welcome - and sorry that it is difficulties that brought you here,

A few questions: why is he being sent to the principal's office? Is he yelling, throwing things, being aggressive with his classmates? Is he doing his own thing while the rest of the class is paying attention? Is he saying or doing things that he sees as appropriate responses but which the teacher sees as a challenge to authority or disrespectful? Knowing exactly what he is doing may help us throw out ideas that you might try.

Testing - we had to test privately because the deficits we were seeing in the classroom were not far enough delayed to qualify for testing in the school. If you do go outside the system, make sure you use a professional whose report will be accepted by your school - they don't always accept all outside testing results. Also, if it is to test for developmental issues, your insurance might cover it, they want cover it for academic reasons, but whether for academic or developmental purposes, the testing overlaps quite a bit and gets the results you need.

THis is so odd (and annoying!) that they said this... My son is doing well academically (as well as behaviorally) and I suspect dyslexia so they are testing him (even though he is actually ahead of the grade in reading)... I guess my school is just a super accomodating school. I did expect them to give me a hard time and they did not at all! Also, it seems to me that any time a student is having such severe behavioral issues the school is willing test/evaluate even though the child is doing well academically. For example, my child was doing very well acadamically last year in kindie but was acting out pretty severely. The school came to me and wanted to evaluate him. I declined last year and took him for a private eval b/c I felt strongly the behavior (mostly high anxiety behaviors) was due to issues such as learning disorder or somehting like that and I didn't trust the school (that school psych in particular) to truly get at the issue. So just strikes me as odd that they are resisting evaluating him in light of his clear behavioral struggles.

Wow, thank you for so many replies!

E is being disruptive in class by making noise (talking to others, talking to himself, loud yawning,etc), wandering around the classroom (sometimes walking, sometimes crawling), flicking pieces of paper, turning his worksheets into paper airplanes or drawing on them, waving his pencil around, telling the teacher he won't do the work she's asking...that's all I can remember right now. I do know he has a problem respecting personal space, but he's never hurt them on purpose.

I had suggested to the principal that if E were allowed to read a book at the first sign of trouble, that perhaps that would help (he is a voracious reader, and can sit for hours at home with a book). Apparently they tried this yesterday, and apparently he was still a huge disruption (loud talking to himself).

I didn't request the evaluation in writing, but apparently my oral request has done something because we have a meeting with the teacher and principal to start a Student Study Team, which is the first step in the process.

I'd love to say that E is much better at home, but it's not always all that great. With the 504 plan we are supposed to do school work at home (with my promise that if he finishes it we can do cool stuff, like playing with the geoboard, or electronics). This worked initially, and he charged through work that he would have balked at in the classroom. This week has been another story, though, and he's gotten almost no schoolwork or homework done. What's worse, he is belligerent towards me, which just makes me so upset.

Good news, I think! Our principal has agreed to have a comprehensive evaluation done for E. We have paperwork to fill out, and a meeting with her and the teacher when school gets back in session.

I know that this isn't going to solve all of our problems, but at least we'll have an idea of where we stand.

I would revisit the homeschool option. Why don't you want to do it?
I don't if you're just recreating a school experience at home right now, but many people homeschool gifted kids in a different way than that. A happy gifted kid likes to explore interests and learns a whole lot that way.

JenG, I'd pursue a neuropsych evaluation outside of the school's evaluation, in parallel. They will find what they'll find, but they are not equipped to diagnose or treat-- they are looking only for educational implications of the behavior. Doing an outside evaluation helps to make sure that you get the full picture, and allows you to make sure the school is doing the right things for your child.

DeeDee

I went back to school a few years ago to become a paralegal; our plan was that I would go back to work soon after I finished last winter. So far this hasn't happened. While I'm not against homeschooling per se, it wasn't what we had planned for the future, so it's not an easy decision to make.

We do a lot of informal "schooling" on the side, so our kids are learning stuff (that they're interested in) all the time, just not necessarily at school.

Great advice! Actually, we have spoken to someone about a neuropsych evaluation recently (at a sort-of-local center for gifted kids). He was the one who suggested we go through the school first, so we could try to get some information without having to pay for it ourselves. Depending on the results of the school evaluation, we might go back to the center for advice or additional testing. Since I'm not even exactly sure what they'll be testing, I'd rather wait until the school stuff is finished before pursuing an outside evaluation.

An analogy that I have read is that keeping an advanced kid with their agemates is like putting a third grader in a first grade class and expecting them to be mature enough at such a young age to pay attention and not be distracting. If you spend some time reading the older threads here you'll see debates about the pros and cons of acceleration. In theory it sounds good, if you go to school to learn you'll be too busy to create your own entertainment in class.

I agree with DeeDee on this. I also understand that neuropsych testing can be very expensive (we've been through it more than once). The one thing that I see as a potential downside to only going with school testing first other than what DeeDee has mentioned is that you may wait several months for the school process to unfold only to find you still don't have the answers *you* need for your ds and end up seeking out a private neuropsych eval anyway.

I'd try to do a few things right now while you're pursuing the school eval:

1) Definitely try to talk to an advocate to get a feeling for what happens in your area in situations like you are in - this may help you have an idea if your school really will be honest and helpful or try to prove that your ds is just fine and everything is rosy. They can also help you with a roadmap of what type of accommodations you can ask for or might want to ask for, what type of testing to be sure is included in the school's evaluation, etc.

2) Put everything that is happening down in writing if it's not been proposed in writing by the school. If you've had a meeting already where the school has said they will test, send an email to the team stating what you understand will happen, what is being tested, and what the time frame you expect it to take will be (if they haven't given you a time frame). You shouldn't make up that time frame from anywhere, there should be a time frame that your state requires the testing to be completed in (our state law is, I think, 60 days, and our school district policy states 45 days). If you're not aware of that deadline there is a chance the school will not rush to get anything done. Your written statement will trigger either the start of that time frame or a response from the school that you'll start with an eligibility meeting (which would then in turn start the timeframe) - I am SO totally not explaining this very well.. which is why you need to talk to an advocate lol.

3) Familiarize yourself with your rights in your school district. If the school does their evaluation and you don't agree with the findings, you should be able to request an Independent Educational Evaluation outside of the school - but you will still most likely have to choose from a certain set of evaluators which might not include who you would have chosen if you'd gone the route of a private eval yourself... so it's somewhat helpful to think through that possibility ahead of time.

4) Have you checked into whether or not your insurance would cover a private eval? As DeeDee mentioned, the school will not diagnose or treat, and if there is something going on, this is in many ways more key than simply having accommodations and a plan at school. School is just one part of our kids' lives - we need to understand what's behind behaviors at school to help our kids navigate their lives. I don't know anything about your ds, but it's possible he might need counseling, and if that was the case, the school isn't going to recommend the type, or who to go to, or even tell you it would help. If he would benefit from OT, but doesn't fall under the extremely low bar for needs set by most school districts, the school isn't going to tell you about it, they'll see your ds as "fine". Our 2e ds didn't meet the low bars for either OT or SLP set by our school district, but OT helped him quite a bit early on and he's been working with an SLP for several years and that honestly has been the one thing that has enabled him, with his specific set of challenges, navigate school and life - it's honestly been a life-changer for him - but we never would have even known to try it out if we'd relied on his school eval.

Lastly, the reason I'd pursue learning more about your private neuropsych options now is time - the school eval will take a bit of time, but it's also likely that getting an appointment with a neuropsych will also take time, and if you got to the end of your school eval and suddenly realized that you are still wanting more in terms of understanding what's up, you might not want to have to wait another 3 months again for the neuropsych appointment.

Best wishes,

polarbear

As usual DeeDee and polarbear have addressed the main issues. I will add a few things based on my experience with my DS8 in your state.

First, the school is jerking you around. Hinting that you should go see elsewhere and having as an accommodation that they can kick your son out whenever they feel like it is a violation of the law. Even if the school is a bad fit and you end up going elsewhere, they are supposed to provide him with a free and appropriate education.

Second, while the recommendations from the local gifted center to first try getting an assessment from the school might be a good plan for a gifted child, you have enough red flags for 2e that I wouldn't trust the school. In CA there are no obligations for gifted services, so id'ing him doesn't cost the school much of anything (and might help convince you to go look elsewhere). But there are strong incentives not identify a child as special needs (since that requires providing actual services), especially if the child is doing OK academically (as defined by meeting NCLB goals) and is not too disruptive in the classroom (or can be handled by having mom deal with it). It is much better to get an assessment from a trusted specialist on your payroll who can help you figure out what your child need and also help you push that through the school. Lastly, assessing 2e kids is tricky (strengths hiding weaknesses) and standard assessment plans might not show either the gifts or the weaknesses.

The principal at our school recommended I get a private assessment after asking me if we had good health insurance. I was offended/horrified (the school has 75% low income families who can't afford to drop 3k on a neuropsych assessment, although we eventually did it), but by first asking that the school do their job the way they were supposed to we lost two years. I just finished digging myself out of that particular hole (DeeDee, polarbear and everybody who answered that first post of me way back when, we finally got an IEP 2 weeks ago!).

Anyway. The legal framework in CA is formal request for an assessment (in writing!) sent to principal, copy to SpEd Head for your district. The are form letters available online. The school has 2 weeks to convene a SST meeting to draw an assessment plan (or deny the need). I would recommend talking with a specialist beforehand to make sure they assess areas of weakness properly, despite his high intelligence (as an example my AS son does OK to great on standardized speech assessments with adults, and gets very decent scores (+1SD) on the most common tests of pragmatic language -- it took going for some obscure, specialized tests and doing in depth observations of interactions "with peers in a naturalistic setting", a phrasing recommended by his private psych and inserted in the assessment plan, to unveil his issues in a way that qualified him for services). Once the plan is drawn they have 60 days to evaluate. Expect them to take every day they have (everybody is underfunded and overworked). After that an initial IEP meeting will be scheduled, where services will be proposed (or refused).

I would recommend you talk with an advocate to get a feel for your school/district, talk with a neuropsych (or that gifted center) to get a list of tests that could be used to assess your child (if it is not too late for that, since it sounds like you signed the assessment plan?), and get on the wait list for a private assessment with a neuropsych that understands 2e (if you can find one).

Lots to reply to, but here's a quick question:

I looked at Wrightslaw, found a lot of attorneys and schools, but nothing that screamed "advocate" to me. Maybe I'm overlooking them, and maybe I'm just not sure what I'm looking for. Am I looking for an attorney, or something else? (And gosh that seems like a silly question, but having a third-party advocate is new to me.)

So far we haven't filled out any paperwork, although I have some to do over the winter break. Our SST meeting in right after school goes back in session, so I don't know that we'd even have enough time to go back to the neuropsych we initially saw to get his opinion. Whew, this is all so overwhelming!

An advocate would be a local person, so not someone you could find through a national site like Wrightslaw. Ours is an "educational advocate," definitely not an attorney. She is very useful in making sure we have an understanding of what each school meeting is for, how to handle it, and what we need to accomplish. Most critically, when we feel something isn't happening that should, she works that out with the district staff BEFORE the meeting, so that during the meeting we can actually get things done.

Theoretically I would be capable of doing this job myself, I've mastered a lot by now, but for some reason it goes much better to have this kind of brokering by a third party; they listen to the advocate differently. It is also so much better for my stress level.

If insurance won't cover a private eval, talk to the most well-reputed professional's office staff and ask them about funding. Our county has two separate non-need-based programs that would fund an eval for developmental issues. One of those programs also funds some aspects of treatment. There are need-based programs too. Obviously, this too depends on where you are, but local professionals should know what to tell you; they deal with this all the time.

DeeDee

Click on "Find help in your state" at this website:

http://www.napas.org/

I'm a teacher (and former PG kid) who used to have a job where I coordinated evaluation and eligibility for disabilities (Special Ed, 504). My experience of Disability Rights Advocates is that they want what's best for the child (but don't always agree with the school about what that looks like). With your consent, they can review the file and attend meetings with you (sometimes by teleconference in our islands). They are particularly skilled at translating edubabble into language the parents can understand.

I've also been involved with Civil Rights complaints and Due Process hearings. In my experience, having an advocate is more effective than either of those routes.

One one hand, it's an unusual (male) 7 year old who can handle hours and hours of boredom, and the placement issues must be fixed. If homeschooling isn't an option (and it's a very expensive option to be out of the workforce for so many years, both in terms of income lost this year, and opportunity for growing future income) then it sounds like the options on the table are the school paying for a private school that focuses on project based learning so that each child can work at their own level and learn organically or a combination of gradeskips and subject accelerations.

Testing, done privately or through the school will help and give clues, but in my experience it isn't as though the testing is specific enough so that X finding can be treated by X schooling option. It's a long road of trial and error, with testing to at least rule out a few dead ends.

You son is very young, and you are right at the beginning of parenting him through school, it take a while to figure this sort of thing out. 2nd grade was 'the worst' for our family too. On wonderful thing about school is that a wonderful teacher might be just around the next corner. DS's 3rd grade teacher was amazing, and I would have been very happy to leave him parked with her for the next 3 years, but that wasn't an option. Look for teachers who are charismatic, self confident, and intelligent. Teachers with a sense of humor. Teachers who see shades of grey.

Then there is the discipline question. It is possible, at least with some kids, to get a discipline system in place so that they child doesn't complain anymore that the school is intolerably poor fit, but that wouldn't be my goal. OTOH, if you child is challenging in the home environment as well, then getting a system of discipline in place that you can live with that works tolerably well is to everyone's advantage. My favorite is found in a book by Lisa Bravo called 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook.' My son also found that creating trouble in elementary school was more 'rewarding' than doing nothing. It took a high toll on him, and now he sees that he can get more out of life by being decent to others, and that he has the self-mastery to do what it takes even when that is difficult. It is a little hard to tell if there is a discipline problem at home sometimes, because as a bright parent it's easy to see the potential difficult situations and steer around them - folks at school have neither the ability nor the desire to do that.

Thanks for posting, looking forward to reading your updates,
Grinity

I just wanted to give a quick update. The school agreed to test, so we filled out all the paperwork the week or so after school started in January. He's about halfway through now, and just loves all the tests.

Meanwhile, other teachers came up with the idea of allowing E to read in class, before he starts being disruptive. It was the same idea I suggested months ago, but I guess it was more palatable with other teachers suggesting it. Since this started, E has not been sent to the office because of disruptive behavior in the classroom. Now his teacher complains that he isn't getting work done in class.

(He is still being sent to the office for misbehavior during recess, but that's probably another post.)

Again, many thanks to everyone who weighed in and offered advice and opinions!

LOL...I find this amusing! Isn't it funny how that works!?! Sometimes making it seem like it is their idea is the only way to get what you want with the school and it is sad that we, as parents, have to learn to be manipulators and play the game.

I'm glad you got the testing and I'm glad he is enjoying it. I think that may be a good sign.

If by chance the test results come back and you don't agree make sure you find out what your options are. Some districts will still consider private testing results that differ from their own testing, but as other posters have stated - if you have to do private testing make sure the school will accept it.

Keep us all posted!