Hi, everyone -
My DS is 4 and has late August birthday. He is enrolled in a private gifted school that has two preschool levels. One is for 3/4 year olds, the other is for 4/5 year olds. The school also has a K-6 that most of the preschoolers eventually go to. Entrance is based on screening/iq tests in the 95th percentile minimum.

My son is very bright, but also immature socially. He has been reading since age 2 to give some gauge of his intellectual ability. He is difficult to manage in a classroom because he is stubborn and doesn't like to follow instructions if he has his own idea about what he wants to do. Getting him to sit in circle time, for example, is next to impossible.

So he's been in this new school now for two weeks or so. The teacher has contacted me and said he is the youngest in his class, and she feels he might fit in better with the younger group (the 3/4). This all would have the snowball effect of delaying his entrance to kindergarden until he is 6 (he would have just turned six around the week classes start).

Is this redshirting? I've heard many with son and a summer birthday redshirt... but is that wise for a gifted kid? The teacher says they would differentiate the curriculum to keep him challenged, but he would be with a more appropriate peer group if he is held back.

I should also mention that his fine motor skills seem well behind his peers in the 4/5 class. Some kids in the class are also more than a year older than him.

So... redshirting gifted kids?? Does it make sense? I'm meeting with the teacher next week and I'm trying to get my head around the idea. Thanks!

That's a tough one. I will start out with being upfront that I have two children, girls though, with bds around that time or a month later who I did start in K right when they were turning five. We didn't have any fine motor concerns, though, either.

I do wonder if his stubbornness might be more related to giftedness than immaturity. Do you have any reason to believe that he might be *more* gifted than the typical kid in his school? Also, do you plan to keep him in this private school all the way through elementary? If not, I would take a look at how well the school you would likely later send him to would do in terms of differentiation if he was both one of the oldest and much brighter than the other kids in his grade.

Is there any possibility of putting him with the 3/4 class this year and seeing how it goes with the option to skip the 4/5 pre-K to enter K "on time" if his social maturity and motor skills catch up this year?

Thanks so much for your response. I've been back and forth so much on this issue all morning. I think I'm going a bit nuts.

The stubbornness - I don't know if that is related to the giftedness or just part of his personality. He can be very focused and very specific about what he wants and how he wants to do something. It can make him difficult at times, for sure. We started using this "system" called 1-2-3 magic that has really worked well with him for discipline at home. So his behavior is now pretty good at home, but still a challenge outside of home. But he is quickly growing up and I see his behavior improving all the time.

You know, he is so young... it is really hard to say just "how gifted" he is. His pediatrician and a psychologist have both told us that he is exceptionally intelligent. He had to take a brief ESP screening to qualify for this school, and we were told he hit the score ceiling. So, yes, it is possible he is more gifted than the average kid at this school (who are all supposed to be gifted) but he is so young it's really hard to say.

You've given me same great ideas for questions. If he was held back to the 3/4 room, how would they accommodate him? And might he skip 4/5 and go straight to K next year? Great questions!

We do plan to keep him at this school if we like it. Since we are a new family, we haven't fully formed our opinions on the place yet. That is another concern I have. If we decided we didn't like the school or it isn't worth the price tag and we wanted to move him to public school, I hate to think of him being a year behind where he should be.

At this age and at this time, I am not really worried about his academics. I want him to learn how to have a positive experience in school, make friends, learn to follow instructions. Academically and intellectually - well, he's only just turned four and plus he learns a lot on his own and enjoys pursuing his own interests (like his space obsession).

So while 3/4 might work OK for this school year, I just worry about how this decision will impact him next year, or 4 years from now... KWIM? Also he absolutely loves his class, his teachers, his friends. He seems so excited about all of it. I'd hate to put out that fire by sending him to another class where he may or may not be as enthusiastic.

Sorry to babble so much. My husband and I are just really struggling with how to think about this.

Yes.

Unfortunately, this is likely to be a very large gap (social vs. intellectual) given your description-- and it may widen further or blaze into complete resistance to all directives. (I have a very stubborn/willful child whose preferred protest is this latter method, precisely.)

I hate to say this, but such children are often not possible to accommodate in a formal school setting until they are a bit older and have some of the rudiments of social maturity. (About 7-8yo, barring other considerations.)

This is a huge part of why we wound up homeschooling.

I don't know that I'd redshirt, because that may make the academic side so intolerable that your DS will earn the label (and adopt it as part of his self-image, too) that he's a "behavior problem" in the classroom, and that's who he is as a student.

On the flip side, opting for the acceleration can mean that he compares himself unfairly to a peer group that has greater maturity and fine motor development. The latter has been a problem for my DD.

Truthfully, both things have been a problem for my daughter. The former would have been far, far, far worse if we hadn't done the acceleration, though. The gap between DD and agemates has widened very significantly, and the greatest change occurred between four and eight years of age-- since then, her intellectual rate of development has slowed somewhat and her other areas of development have been 'catching up' to her intellectual peer group.

That's an individual thing, and not one that can be readily predicted. At three, we'd have predicted that a one year acceleration would be "fine" for her on all counts. We'd have been wrong.

Luckily our DS6 has a December birthday or we would've faced a similar crunch with fine motor and sitting still. In pre-school he was the kid wandering around, but it was due to curiousity and a lack of interest in stories well behind his interests. He still prefers the company of older children.

So, if my DS had had a different birthday I'd have wondered:
Will he get along better with the younger kids?
Will the younger class be focusing on specific skill building for fine motor control or is this just biding time?
When he reaches K, will there be acceleration throughout the year or is it just overall an advanced class? i.e. is there an increased chance he'll be bored in K.

Our eldest was on the bubble as well, late August birthday, we were dealing with a public school system though, on the other hand, at least we knew the school system exceedingly well.

Our eldest was exceedingly mature. Our biggest concerns was that by red-shirting him it would drive him nuts (as it already did) being around even less mature students AND that he'd be differentiated for. We decided to red-shirt him as we could pretty well assure he'd be reasonably differentiated for and if not we could supplement it at home. The issue of being around other kids of less maturity continued to bother him, however, subject acceleration at least gave him a chance to be around older kids a couple of classes a day. In the end I think we made the right decision. He was somewhat of the peanut of the class had he not red-shirted.

In your situation, if your son's maturity level and stubborness seem to be the issues....and if you're confident that even with red-shirting him he'll be properly differentiated for, then I'd encourage you to do so. I fail to see the draw back. Another year at home will give him time to mature, time for the family to address the issues at hand for a year at home, and it's never fun going through school as the "runt" of your class. There are enough issues raising a GT child without fighting the physical factor too IMO.

My experience is not with a private gifted school, so results may vary, but my DD has spent over two years now dealing with two different schools who talk a good game about differentiation, but putting it into practice with any kind of consistency seems beyond them. So my advice would be to put the screws to the school to prove their words before entertaining the idea of redshirting. If you can, sit in on a class and see if there's anything resembling differentiation actually happening, because if this is truly a school for the gifted, your son should not be the only one there dealing with this.

Thanks for all the great points. It really helps to hear from other parents. One moment, I think I am worrying to much about this because he is really just a baby. He's only just turned four, afterall, why worry so much about a school decision! But then, on the other hand, I see how this decision could have far-reaching implications for all his years ahead. Will he be the youngest in a class or the oldest? As it stands, in the 4/5 class there are children that are more than a year older than him (evidently with parents who elected to "redshirt")

I just want him to have a positive experience. One point that really struck me was about his classmates. He really has no interest in younger kids (with the exception of his little sister and the novelty of babies). In the neighborhood, all of his friends are all 5, 6, or 7 seven years old. He has no interest in the kids that are 4 and younger. This is a point I will certainly bring up with his teacher when we meet.

He is actually above average in height, so he doesn't stick out as young in his classroom size-wise... but he does in demeanor.

My husband and I are a little skeptical of the school, but I think we might be confusing skepticism with resistance to paying a large tuition bill! I do believe they mean it when they say they differentiate. I know, for example, that there are usually at least one or two six graders every year that take calculus. I don't know what, exactly, differentiation looks like in the lower grades and especially in the preschool years, though.

His teacher has been teaching gifted kids for 20 years, has a masters degree in gifted education, etc. etc. So we will definitely be open to hearing what she recommends.

I know we should follow our instincts here, as parents - but for some reason we just aren't getting a strong gut instinct on this one. Perhaps that means it would work out OK either way...

I have to admit, part of me is thinking "OK, if you are going to hold him back a year, why send him to a gifted school?? Perhaps he'd do fine in the public schools, but while staying the youngest in the class." Of course, they have made it clear that his intellect isn't the issue. It's the stubborness, the poor fine motor skills, and (I'm assuming here) the general restlessness.

Thanks again, everyone! I'd love to hear any more experiences or opinions on this.

I feel your pain. My ds' birthday JUST miss the cut-off last year for K. We could have put him in a private school K, but we were worried about maturity also. Now he just started K as one the older ones...he is definitely one of the most mature and taking on a leadership role BUT he is bored out of his gourd with the work (and has already surpassed any goals for the year academically). BUT in reviewing the first grade curriculum -he has met most of the first grade goals too (his handwriting would be a problem for 2nd grade AND he would be the youngest by 2 or more years). Sigh. I have this icky feeling we may have to go private or homeschool eventually.

That's a painful experience of ours too, they know all the phrases to paint a pretty picture, practice though being severely lacking.

Good to file away in our minds as we continue to search best school fit.

DS8 and DS4 both have summer birthdays. We've gone back and forth on this subject. Initially, my intent was to have DS8 start kindergarten at 6- a decision based on research I'd read about boys of summer. He was enrolled in a Montessori and after two years of preschool his teachers advised we let him go ahead and start K at 5. This decision was based largely on his academic performance and since he would still be in a class with 3 & 4 year olds I didn't worry too much about him being the youngest.

Fast forward to first grade where he was the youngest in a three year class (1st-3rd). His immaturity in organization skills, work habits, attention span and handwriting started leading to struggles. He was doing above level work but at below level speed. Thats when we heard the first murmurs of attention disorders. I decided it was just a matter of him starting 1st grade too soon and at his teacher's advice had him repeat 1st grade with all 2nd grade (and up) work. Differentiation in a Montessori is pretty easy to do so we didn't feel like this was going to cause him to suffer at all.

Halfway through his second year of 1st grade, we started hearing that attention word again. DS was capable of doing high level work but was just not attending or showing any self direction. On a day when he was expected to complete 4 works, he would often do 1. I felt like we'd adjusted for age and still he seemed the least mature of his class. And on top of it all, he hated school now. Finally, at the direction of the school,we went to Vanderbilt for testing this summer.

What we learned was the DS was very gifted, had an excellent working memory (141) which (along with other tests) blasted those ADHD suspicions right out of the water, and was really a perfectly "normal" gifted kid. We were given some ideas to help engage him (project work- letting him dig deeper into works to satisfy his need for more) and are working with the school to get him back to liking school.

What I learned through all of this is that he internalized both his sense that he was different with the fact that he was held back in 1st grade as him being "less than.". Although we had told him was just being adjusted for age and although he'd done all his lessons and work at a higher grade level he felt stupid. I don't know if redshirting him at a younger age might have been better but it was certainly a flop the way we did it. Now we are left pondering how best to clean up our mess.

Really- this has been a long winded way to tell you I don't know what I'd do in your shoes. But maybe you can take something from our experience as you decide what to do.

In my mind, here's the thing: this is preschool. If his social development has not caught up with his intellectual level, is preschool causing him more frustration than it is worth? Maybe preschool isn't necessary.

When I was studying special education back in the 80's, two professors at my college were in the midst of a study on summer children, and the statistics pointed to something like 70% of the boys being held back by grade 2. Girls were not nearly as affected.

But gifted kids have the added frustration of being intellectually ahead of most of their peers and even those older than them.

We enrolled my older son in Kindergarten when he was barely 5 - made th e cutoff by two days - and while there were a few challenge (much physically smaller than other boys in high school, some immaturity issues in mid-school), I'm not sorry we enrolled him early. It was a "grade skip" without the battle, and he needed it academically.

But we also kept our kids home until Kindergarten. My son had 5 full years to be "normal" at home before having to contend with his differences in the classroom setting. I think it was a big boost to allow him to develop at his own pace at home, and I think the lack of stressors of not fitting in in preschool helped him actually be more prepared for Kindergarten.

Just my thoughts based on my experiences, for whatever that is worth. (By the way, his toughest year by far was as a freshman in college. As a sophomore, he's finally gotten his groove and is loving the challenging engineering courses.)

Montessoris are very different from any other school type. I would not necessarily decide if your older boy really has attention issues just based on their say-so.
I do think some boys do better if they are a little older rather than younger. I volunteered each week last year in my first grader's class, and I could easily pick out the younger/later birthday kids (both boys and girls). And it wasn't based on their physical size.
The schools demand so much in today's world of sitting still and doing academic things at such an early age. Some kids are very bright intellectually but are emotionally at their chronological age, and the two don't mesh as well in early grades.

I'm curious - how long has school been in session? And have you talked to your ds about it all? Does he have any kind of ideas about why he has a tough time sitting in circle? I know he's only 4 so he won't be able to figure it all out, but sometimes our kids have a viewpoint that we'd never imagine, and it could make all the difference in knowing how to handle a situation.

Another ? I have is - is this his first preschool? If so, I'm not surprised he hasn't been totally excited about sitting down at circle time. Do you think he's been given a good trial run with his age group?

If you are comfortable with the school and believe they'll differentiate, I'd suggest this - let your ds be with the 3/4 class for the start of this year, and ask that he be moved back into he 4/5 group at the start of 2nd semester, or sometime in the spring. If the issues with circle etc are simply maturity issues, they'll most likely be better by then.

I wouldn't agree to move him back to 3/4 with the idea that he'll stay with that group of kids forward through elementary school. It *might* be a good thing for him but he's way too young and it's way too early to know that's the right thing to do for him. My ds is one of the oldest kids in his class due to birthdate, and due to 2e we had too much of a battle on our hands to even consider asking for a grade skip etc in early elementary. It worked out ok early on - I was glad for awhile that he was one of the older kids because as jack's mom mentioned, in K/1 it was pretty easy to see who was younger/older based on how they acted (not true for everyone, but for the most part it was true). However, by the time he was in 5th grade, our ds was *beyond* bored with the pace of instruction, with the level of questions asked in school, and with the lack of intellectual challenge. Being up one year in grade level wouldn't have solved all the problems but it would have helped.

On the flip side, once kids get to middle school it's often much easier to get differentiation and subject acceleration plus there are more opportunities for after-school academics... so our ds is much happier now.

One other thought... it sounds like perhaps this school isn't the best fit for your ds. If you aren't contracted in for the rest of the year, if it was me, I'd look around at other preschools. Even the "best" and "gifted" schools or schools with great reputations aren't always the right fit for every kid. One of the things that I think is important in preschool is that kids have a chance to be kids and have fun and not be worried that they are being judged on behavior or expected to learn huge amounts of academics *unless* they are driven and doing it themselves. But that's just me

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses!

School has been in session for two weeks now, next week is week three.

This is not our son's first preschool. He attended a local Montessori for several months last year. He was in a 3-6 room. They weren't as accommodating as we had hoped. He, according to his teacher, was doing 6-year-old works from day one. About two months into the preschool, behavior issues started to crop up. Mostly, not wanting to sit still, not wanting to do what he was told, and refusing to participate in their circle time. Basically, he was too much of a handful for them. I theorize that he ran out of stuff to do, but who knows. Communication with the school always seemed a bit preemptively defensive on their part. We pulled him out thinking that he was maybe too young for preschool and maybe this particular one just wasn't a good fit.

So these behaviors aren't totally new. When we do activities like "My Gym" (a parent and kid gym class) we have a hard time getting him into circle there the time comes. We ask him why, but he doesn't really articulate a solid reason (not too surprising given his age). He basically just says "because I don't want to."

When I picked him up on Friday last week, his teacher told me that the 3/4 classroom would be better for him socially, and they could still meet his need academically. She said, as an example, there was a child in there that is reading at a 4th grade level. I was glad to hear that. Also, the student teacher ratio is really outstanding in the 3/4 classroom. 10 kids and 3 teachers (as opposed to 20 kids and 3 teachers in the 4/5). So he'd get more one-on-one attention.

I want to do what is right, and this issue is just all grey area. I have no idea what is right. I hope we will have a definite idea about what we want in time for the meeting. Right now, I feel myself going back and forth constantly.

ETA: I asked on Friday about skipping grades in the future, and the teacher said that "yes" they do skip grades if it is deemed appropriate. So, if he "catches up" socially by, say, 1st grade and is still far ahead academically - he might skip 2nd grade and go to 3rd. That was just an example she gave. I didn't ask about moving him mid-year, PolarBear, and that's a really good point. I'll bring that question up at our meeting next week.

It sounds like your meeting is just with the teacher? And she's assuring you future grade skips are possible?? From prior experience and other advice on this board, make sure the administrator/principal also assures you of this and does so in writing. Sometimes teachers do not have the authority to make these statements on their own. And what if she quits? Or they change their policy between now and then? Just be careful on this point.

Our family has twice made the decision to send an asynchronous, intellectually ready but otherwise questionable and young for grade kid to Kindergarten on time. For the first one, it made for some bumpy years, but we are now quite happy that we did send him on time, as the lack of intellectual fit would over time have become a huge problem, and gradeskipping not a great choice for a kid with social challenges. Too soon to tell how the second time will turn out, but I'm thinking it was still the right thing among our particular menu of choices.

When we were deciding, we read some studies saying that even if a kid has a disability, redshirting is a poor choice; rather, best practice is to place them with age-peers, giving them opportunities to advance, but also give them extra supports to try to catch them up. For a kid with no known disability but challenges in class participation skills, I would think the same case could be made. This is, of course, controversial.

DeeDee

ETA: re: "catching up" socially from earlier in this thread: if we had waited for that to happen before letting DS10 advance academically, we'd still be waiting, because he has Asperger's Syndrome. It was much better to make a plan that met his academic needs and kept working on his social needs as we went along, rather than holding him back with peers who had similar social skills to his, because no matter how hard he and we all try, he is going to be asynchronous in this area for the foreseeable future.

And that can be the case for NT kids, too. When DD was in 3rd, I was talking to the mom of a kid I'd pegged as either the youngest in the class or grade-skipped. Nope, oldest in the class, having repeated K to let him catch up socially. He was still way, way asynchronous.

I wouldn't redshirt under the OP's conditions. Plenty of children are immature, in terms of following directions and rules in class, in kindergarten and even in first grade in my location. I wouldn't want to take a gifted child and widen the default academic gap even further.

I was reading recently (on a fundamentalist Christian homeschoolers' forum) that in some areas redshirting is the norm. That makes zero sense to me academically-- parents who follow the "Outliers" mindset seem to have succeeded in those areas in simply delaying the start of academics for everyone by a year. That's no way to get ahead academically long-term, especially for gifted children. On that same website it was mentioned that this is sometimes done for athletic reasons; I'd never do that with a gifted child, with such a pre-existing mismatch between age and academic level to start with.

Acceleration, and especially radical acceleration, by its nature often involves increasing the apparent effects of asynchrony due to placement with older children. Research shows that it can still work quite well for highly gifted children. That means to me that DeeDee's approach is the best one generally-- support as necessary while you do your best to meet academic needs.

"Never" is a big word in education, especially as it relates to a probable or identified GT child. I think this thread shows numerous examples of parents of GT children who are glad they did and glad they didn't red-shirt their child.

It IS a very difficult decision, so little hard evidence with that particular child to base a the decision on, I understand how any parent goes back and forth on this. No doubt we've all made decisions about our GT child we'd like do overs on!

What I have learned is this, 95% of the time when I follow my parent's intuition, I'm glad I did. Nobody knows your child better than you.

Sorry, Old Dad. I know I was less than clear, and have made a minor update above. The word "never" was meant to refer specifically to redshirting for athletic reasons.