Well, maybe a bit of hyperbole there, but he's a rising sophomore, and wants to take 4 AP classes. He attends a public high school, and they're saying that's too many for a sophomore.

He's eminently qualified. We overcame resistance to his taking one AP course as a freshman, AP Calculus, and he got an A+. We won't get the official exam result before July, but he gets 5s on the mock exams. He's working with a tutor and moving beyond calculus. He excels at math competitions, and was one of 200 students out of 18,000 to receive a perfect score on an international Latin exam. I.e., he's exceptional all around.

This is a struggle we have had all along with the public schools, which we have supplemented for years with a tutor--partly out of the belief that private schools would be no better, and that targeted tutoring was more appropriate for his needs.

We thought that when he reached high school--with all its AP classes and the opportunity to take college courses locally--he'd be set. But they've already closed the door on college courses until he is a junior.

we want him to remain with his development peer group, and so does he. He gets along well with his classmates, starts for the lacrosse team, and plays in the band and jazz ensemble.

We have had experience with this kind of resistance from the school,and know how to advocate for him, but why don't they want to support the exceptional? What's the problem?

The bell curve goes both ways, and if he was at the other extreme of exceptionality, they'd be throwing services at him.

In our state, gifted children, by statute, have the right to an assessment, but no right to services and programs. That's a tease.

Fortunately, we have the savvy and resources to fight this battle--but I think about the fact that not everybody does.

It's not ideal, but can your son can take AP exams without being enrolled in his high school's AP courses, either taking an online AP course or studying independently?

Is there an early middle college school that is worth looking into? What about a part time homeschool charter?

At least they're not trying to crush his 'nads, too.

Following on from Bostonian's comment, EPGY and CTY offer AP courses in a formal online setting. They have instructors who help. Here's a listing of CTY courses.

If the school digs its heels in, can your son take a very light load at school and do the AP courses online?

We're not ready for high school yet, but I'll be very interested in how you ultimately work around this roadblock as it's something I expect we'll be facing when ds is older. Just curious - have you considered homeschool? In our area, home schooled kids can choose a public school where they are allowed to participate in extracurricular activities such as sports teams etc - that might be one way of giving your ds peer group interaction but let him fly academically. (I'm guessing that if you homeschool you could enroll him in community college or online courses).

Do you think you have any private school options that might work? Although our ds is younger, we've found that private school has worked much better than public school in many ways - most importantly for us the teachers and school staff are truly excited about seeing each individual child stretch to their full potential. It's possible you might be able to find a school that was eager to have your ds attend, and might offer flexibility as well as scholarship $.

I hope you'll let us know how everything works out -

polarbear

I understand and share your frustration over lack of services for gifted children, but I also know quite a few people who work with the children in our school district who have developmental challenges at the other end of the intellectual spectrum. FWIW, they don't have services just thrown at them (at least they don't in our district). Teaching resources and $ for support are limited all around, and most of the parents of students on *either* end of the spectrum here have to advocate (and fight) tremendously to get the needs of their children met. To be honest, at least here, it's tough to meet the needs even of the vast majority of kids who are right smack-dab in the middle of the bell curve.

polarbear

Clearly, you have no experience with lacrosse.

Are you asking why a bureaucracy is being bureaucratic?

Just keep pounding on them with a sledgehammer until they do what you want them to do.

The problem we found with light load classes is that for a kid like this it is like torture. I'm not talking about some of the art classes (which aren't necessarily 'light' in terms of time commitment), my older son had to take basic geometry his first year of high school. Sigh.

Advanced geometry wasn't any more challenging and the teacher was a dragon who gave him a D for doing things like having the wrong sized margin, failed him on a test because he couldn't remember the date but got the answers correct, writing the answers before the working (seriously, he got a zero on that paper) because he was working out the answers in his head and wrote it down then went back and explained it. The work was easy but incredibly time consuming -- at least an hour and a half every evening spent writing out the questions.

So the only other option was basic geometry. California apparently requires that you do it even if you are capable of higher math. He used to text me in class saying "I am getting stupider sitting here, my brain is dribbling out of my ears". It was a complete and utter waste of time. He got 107% (with EC) for the year and wasted more than an hour every evening doing homework. This year, rinse, lather and repeat. He had to do algebra II for the same reason this year.

His school didn't want him to do two sciences in one year this year or last year. They finally agreed to let him do basic chem as a second science but his counsellor said that there would be many of the same kids in the chem class as last year's math class so he opted to do AP Euro instead which they were happy for him to take....??? He couldn't do a second science, but was allowed to do AP euro which has a ton of material to get through.

At our local public high school, they offer roughly 35 AP classes. Some are things most kids will never take like year 5-6 Mandarin AP Chinese.
Anyway... I know they limit the AP classes sophomores can take and they don't allow freshmen to take any. (My kids are in grade school, so I don't have firsthand experience). My friends whose kids are there say it is because each AP class supposedly adds 4 hours each night of homework, and it would be too much for younger students. An A in an AP course is a 5, not a 4, on a 4.00 GPA, so it boosts your GPA.
I don't know obviously if that is why your school is digging in its heels. Your child can self-study and take AP exams on their own, if they really want to do that.
The other thing too is that high school kids can and should really focus on the "big" exams like the PSAT, SAT, ACT, and subject exams. You can take the PSAT as a sophomore. That can lead to some grants/scholarships.

Thanks for your replies.

@Polar bear. Perhaps I overstated it about the other side of the bell curve, and I've been on the local ARC board. But there is that distinction where gifted children in my state have no statutory right to services, whereas those with developmental challenges do. At least with a child who has challenges, you can say, that he or she has a right to such and such. My child has a right only to an assessment.

We do not see private school as an option. At the local,quite prestigious, private school, there are even more restrictions re AP courses than at our public school.If we lived in my home town, NYC, he would find an ideal school, Stuyvesant, Bronx Science or Brooklyn Tech. AP courses are an option for any student starting at freshman year. And they even have post-AP courses because so many of the kids have taken APs.

I am also biased towards the idea--at least--of the public school as the crucible of a democratic society. We also made a conscious decision to raise our family in the inner city rather than a suburb.Now that our kids are older--they can walk or take public transportation. Many of their suburban friends thinks it's cooler that our kids are in the city.

To a great extent we are meeting our child's needs with a tutor--who is exceptional himself. He has a PhD in math from the local Ivy, and was a medalist in the International Math Olympiad. What's nice about him is that he takes our child's ability for granted, and is credibly able to tell him that he needs to work hard rather than just relying on whatever gifts he has. Whatever happens with the school he will have his tutor to push him at the high level of which he is capable and move him along in math. (Our son wants to be a mathematician, so it's a perfect match.)

As far as the school goes, I'm confident we will work it out. We feel that the AP courses themselves are not ideal. Statistics and the Physics B are not calculus based, so they are actually the equivalent of the courses you would take if you were planning not to be a math or science major. But I'm buying into the statistics because one of his teachers says he will learn to write about mathematics--an important skill. And the physics will be, frankly, easy. My son, from calculus, already knows the Newtonian laws presented at calculus problems.

To a great extent, I'm just venting that it has to be a struggle. Somehow we naively imagined that when he got to high school--with all the APs--he'd be free and clear.

And after the sophomore year, he will be able to take college courses for free--due to a special program--at the local Ivy, although I'm sure we'll be hearing, "Oh, that's too many college courses for a high school junior."

You don't force a violin prodigy to play in the school band. But they want intellectual prodigies to play in the functional equivalent of the school band.

Update: the school caved, and approved 4 APs. Since I first posted, my son submitted a statement explaining why he wants to take those courses, and I sent an email simply stating that's his plan and we're sticking to it. We wanted them to know it's his idea and we're not simply crazy black helicopter parents. The school, seeing our (polite) assertiveness probably decided it wasn't worth the hassle--or maybe they're thing "it's your funera." It probably didn't hurt that my son had already excelled in calculus AP as a freshman, and has already established himself as the top math student at the school, and, through competiton, in the city.

Of course, they put up another--small-- hoop to jump through. His guidance counselor wants him to contact each of the AP teachers to inform them he's taking 4 APs, "so they'll know about his course load in case of a problem." Kind of labeling him in a way they wouldn't of he were a senior.

So now we're on to the next battle, getting an independent study class on his schedule for the work he will be doing with his tutor. Although his tutor has a PhD in math from the local Ivy, and teaches math there, an independent study class need a certified teacher to be considered a class. Ironic, since juniors at the high school can take college courses, but the professors of those courses can't officially head up an independent study class.

If my kid didn't enjoy living at home and being with his friends, I could see early college.

Hurray! Good for you!

We've also had good successes with our eldest when he makes the request himself.



The mind boggles. When I hear something this absurd, I usually figure that there's another agenda at work. Just my two cents.

Another two cents: do you have a friend with a teaching certification who'd be willing to sign the paper saying s/he's his tutor? She could sign, the college prof. could tutor your son, and everyone would be happy.

Congrats to you and your son!!!

Although I think the idea of your son having to inform his other AP teachers of his course load is beyond absurd...


It might just be local school policy - our school district policy requires the same thing. It's not a terribly big deal here - you just need to find a teacher who's willing to provide very minimal oversight, but it might be a little challenging the first year a student is enrolled at a school before they've had a chance to meet and get to know any of the teaching staff.

polarbear

I think you guys are blessed. When I was a kid there were no AP classes at my private school, I was denied the ability to check out more than a limited number of books, and colleges laughed at the idea of accepting a high school student. I slept through my math classes to the point that one day when i answered a question with my head on my desk the teacher said "don't talk in your sleep". I still won the state math competition and scored 800 on my SAT's, but had essentially no study skills from being bored for about 10 years. These are definitely not the dark ages, those are long past.

Why fight city hall? There is a lot out there to benefit from academically. Why push for boring test oriented AP courses? Try reading good books.

good luck, and take a break now and then and watch the sunset.

lol!

I'd see the silver lining in that-my kids would have been MISERABLE if they'd been accepted to a school that valued the flaky kid over the driven kid.

And I feel your pain, OP, about having to constantly advocate (I call it dropping the hammer) for your kid in public schools.

Again, I look at the silver lining: my kids see that an exceptional education is something you have to fight for, and they appreciate it.

I think we'd need to know a lot more about the entire applications and the discussion that happened among the admissions committee before we cast judgement. Here's one possible scenario:

Both students have near-perfect GPAs, both totally kicked their GRE's. AP student attended a private prep school that is known for pushing APs, and where taking the most APs the earliest is considered a sign of status. AP student wrote a cookie-cutter essay, and has lackluster recommendations that only speak to how well this student memorizes information.

Religion-Hopping student attended a fairly ordinary public school, but took several AP classes, and has effusive recommendations that speak to the student's insightful questions and willingness to challenge ideas. Religion-hopping student wrote a scholarly essay comparing the ethical systems of the different religions, including references to the academic literature which the student must have dug up on their own because there are no philosophy or ethics classes offered at their high school.

The media (even NPR) just love over-simplified "gotcha" stories. This is almost certainly one of them.

A UCLA admissions officer was asked about a student who took 10 AP classes:

http://www.layouth.com/how-colleges-pick-who-gets-in/

How colleges pick who gets in

...

L.A. Youth: What if one school offers fewer APs than another.

Pimentel: There’s another level to that. Let’s say a student goes to a school that offers 20 Advanced Placement courses but when they apply to college they’ve only taken one. That may not look too good to the admissions people. The person reading the application will wonder, “Is there a reason why?” That’s why the essay is very important. Maybe they are working 20 hours a week. Maybe they have to help pay bills in the house because somebody lost their job or mom or dad don’t make enough money. It could be that the student has done a lot of leadership in their school, in their community, with these responsibilities. So it’s the whole package we want to know. The student who has 10 AP classes, let’s say they haven’t done anything extracurricular. And they don’t have anything else to say in their personal statement: there are no family responsibilities, there’s no real reason why they’re not a well-rounded student. We may not take that student. And we may take the kid with only the one AP, it just depends on the situation.

I think most people underestimate the power of the personal statement. We want to get to know you, and we want to know the accomplishments that you’ve had so far and if there are challenges, what are the challenges and how have you dealt with them? The biggest mistake that students will make with the personal statement is they talk about other people or they talk about the problem. They may have an unfortunate family situation where things are not that great at home. But they fixate on only talking about that and they never say, “But despite this, this is what I’ve done to still do well in school.”

*****************************************************

Her answer does not make much sense to me. Someone who does well on 10 AP exams IS a well-rounded student. Not enough weight is being given to academic achievement IMO.

"Well rounded" as used seems to include some non-academics. However, non-academic factors seem to have undergone inflation in recent times as well, with resume/application coaches turning out "well-rounded" students by the truckload. Maybe the best solution is to place more emphasis on academics again, but this may not happen since reliance on soft factors gives the admissions committees more discretion.

Heh heh. I stand corrected!

I'm ridiculously well-rounded.

It's totally overrated-I can do a million things very well, and I'm an expert at none of them.

Focus on what you're good at.

Find a school that respects that. That's my advice...

I dont think 10 AP exams is necessarily well rounded.
Im not fond of the AP exam method of education. most of them just require alot of memorization and parroting back on a multiple choice exam that is entirely coachable. And pearson even trains the teachers to teach to the test properly. few schools have ap courses that go beyond that. the courses are hard because of the volume of stuff and the speed it has to be memorized. not because the material is hard or advanced.
If you are just going to college as job training, then fine get those credits out of the way as fast as you can and as cheaply as possible.
I would prefer a more robust curriculum of honors classes that introduce and encourage actual interaction with the material, analysis of it and then synthesis and creation of the students own work. a kid that can do that, can tackle any topic in higher education. Then they can go on to create and achieve because they will have the tools for it.
your 10AP kid will get a quick degree in something useful, get a good job with a company and begin paying back their student loans in a timely manner. but will they create or achieve? or will they just fufill a role as a microserf? especially if those 10 AP exams are all they did.
Pearson and the testing industry shouldnt be dictating the education of our kids. but alas, they are.

Well said, g2mom.

My alma mater (a small liberal arts college) places sharp limits on how much AP credit one can apply, and for what. Dashing through memorizing a lot of stuff is considered to be simply beside the point.

This college bumps in and out of first place for most undergrads who go on to earn a PhD.

Another update: In addition to the 4 APs, the school has approved the independent study course with his tutor--linear algebra and multivariate algebra--and my son's calculus AP teacher will coordinate from the school's side.

Re the value of APs. What's the alternative? The honor level courses are less rigorous, and the fact is that AP courses are accepted for credit or placement at colleges. I think that many of the criticisms leveled at AP courses apply to college courses--multiple choice tests, lack of independent inquiry, etc.

In my son's case,

AP US History: he will learn to analyze primary sources.

AP Statistics: I was reluctant for my son to take this because the math is below calculus level, but my son's math teacher--whom I respect--said the course is useful because you learn to write about mathematics.

AP Chemistry: also non-calculus, but my son knows little about chemistry beyond the basics of atomic structure, valences, and so forth. He will learn these things in detail.

AP Physics: ditto about the math, but he will learn enough to be the basis of more rigorous courses while still in high school.

In general, tasking these courses plus the independent study course will keep his academic plate full. I hope not to hear, "I have no homework," or "I did it all at school."

And the following year, he will be able to take courses--tuition free--at the local Ivy.

As for well roundedness, my son is not a simple resume builder for the sake of college admissions. I think colleges see through that. I am proud to say he follows his genuine interests--cello and trombone (master of the bass clef), lacrosse, soccer reffing. Next year, he will be doing math tutoring. This summer he has been invited to participate in a biostat program at the local Ivy's school of public health, when he is not volunteering as a junior counselor at the local ecology summer camp. And next year he will be tutoring math through his school's math honor society.

My point is, I guess, is that it's possible to cobble together a decent program without acceleration or early college admission.

I assume there's an assumed "because of the opportunities available to us, which meet the needs of my kid" in there? The first couple of times, I read that statement as a generalization, and the possibility of cobbling a program sufficient to avoid varies widely with the available opportunities and the needs of the kid.

The local high school here does not allow students to take AP courses prior to the 11th grade. Unfortunately, they also don't offer real honors courses, and instead choose to take the "embedded" honors approach, where everyone takes the same course, and the honors students do a bit of extra work.

APs prior to 11th grade would allow gifted students to be placed at an appropriate level, but the district here seems intent on having policies that slow gifted students down to the standard pace and level. And there are way more gifted kids in this district than is typical. I don't get why they have the policies they do, but they are pretty on board with supporting gifted athletes.

Yes, in general, there is an apparent lack of services for the intellectually gifted. In my state, gifted children are entitlted to an assessment but not services, while children with disabilities are entitled to both. Is this a prejudice or an attitude that says, "Well, these kids should be happy they fortunately don't need anything special to do well." But is that an attitude that applies mostly to the intellectually gifted? I like to say to the powers that be, "If my kid was a violin virtuoso, would you make him play in the school band?"

Re "cobbling together a decent program." Yes, of course it depends on what's available, but it also could mean expanding what's available to these normally not served, e.g., getting the restriction lifted on freshman or sophomores taking AP. Were the school adamant, it would be a problem. One reason we didn't consider the prestigious local private school is that it would absolutely not allow freshmen or sophomores to take APs.

Now that school has started here's an update.

All is well. My son--a high school sophomore--is taking four APs, chemistry, physics, statistics, and US history, in addition to getting credit for an independent math study with a private tutor in linear algebra and multivariate calculus.

He even has to take two courses as independent studies because of scheduling conflicts.

This will set him up well to take some courses at the local Ivy ( tuition free! through a special local city-university program).

It helps that the high school principal is fully supportive, in part because he has a solid record: a 5 on the calc ap, a perfect score on an international Latin competiton, being first in a regional math competiton.

I'm back posting this to demonstrate that some of these school struggle stories can have a happy ending even if they appear Sysyphean at the start.

It will be interesting to see if this schedule will be a real challenge. So far academics have been quite easy for him. I wonder how he will react to having to work hard--something that hasn't been necessary for him up to now. I wonder if that's a common issue for gifted kids--not having the experience of how to work hard when they confront academics that are challenging for the first time. If not this year, maybe next when he plans to take a math course that could require 20 hours per week on problem sets.

Incidentally, the principal asked if he's thinking about graduating high school early. I said our goal has always been for him to remain with his social peers as long as he could be challenged at his intellectual level. He does well socially and likes playing lacrosse and the trombone in the band After all, skipping from the 4th to the 6th grade, for example, would not have been a challenge but having a tutor in math back then met his need better.

But now that he's in high school, it's a valid question about considering early college as a meaningful move, intellectually. On the other had, he may become a de facto college student as a high school junior and senior, given his opportunity to take courses at the local university.

Err, yes - ask me how I know ;-/ Actually I think we've talked about this and many of us have this experience - for me, and I think for others, this is a huge part of what motivates the attempt to get appropriate challenge for our children. Great for your son if he can get that while still at school and with you to support him. And at the very least it sounds as though he's going to be interested!

I think that the real issue is having no concept of how to work hard or how to be productive.

To me, the part of the problem is testing in school, where you can do well and succeed just by doing well on tests, in comparison to the adult/real world where you are actually expected to produce something and you are no longer able to rely on just being more intelligent than everyone else as the basis for your success.

Ditto x 1,000 !!

High school physics. That was the first time I had to study. I was completely unprepared for the amount of work and the level of critical thinking my liberal arts college required. On the other hand, my social life exploded. There were so many intellectual peers to hang out with, why would I study?