I have been think about the difference between these two lately. I feel like a lot of our shorthand measures of giftedness are quantitative: doing 4th grade work in 1st, reading early, etc.

But definitions of giftedness tend to emphasize creative and critical thinking, seeing the world differently, making unexpected connections, etc.

I guess what I'm wondering is how much overlap is there between these two? Couldn't we have a kid who works well above grade level but exhibits little or no creative thinking? Or do the two always go hand in hand? Conversely, what about the kid that just thinks differently and thus may not work ahead perhaps because the evaluation measures don't recognize their ways of thinking?

I realize that "advanced" is easier to measure than creative thinking, but how do we nurture those creative thinkers, then? I feel like the push is always onward and upward on the same path, but how can we maintain alternate pathways for our kiddos who see the world differently and may have some great contributions to make if we can nurture their perspectives?

I have thought about this lately also. I don't necessarily think my son is very advanced but his thinking is just different.
Here is an example:
We go to the dog park a lot. My four year old has gotten tired of going and only has fun when he finds another little kid there he can play with. We are unloading and he is walking around a bit while I am getting the baby in the carrier and the dog leashed. He comes up and says he wants to go home because he is the only kid there. I say you can't know there are no kids here. There are over fifty acres of forested trials and there is only a small meadow visible from the parking lot. His response - no cars here have car seats or boosters. I checked. I am the only kid here.
It is not like coming to that conclusion the way he did was necessarily advanced, it just seemed like a creative way to determine if there were kids in the forest.

Anyway, he doesn't seem all that academically advanced. He has little interest in reading by himself, writing or math. He'll sometimes read a big word or randomly do multiplication in his head but nothing with any consistency to make advanced school work necessary. Those moments seem to come out of nowhere and he won't or can't explain how he came up with it in the first place. If it weren't for his scores, I would wonder if he was gifted at all and didn't just have a big vocabulary an amazing memory and an odd way of looking at the world.

There really isn't any formula to nurturing creativity, because it manifests itself in so many different ways, so I'd say the only possible answer to that question is, "be creative."

Check out the "three ring model of giftedness" by Joseph Renzulli

I've been thinking about this a bit too primarily b/c of the thread about case studies in science talent development. The article linked there seems to define "gifted" as the intersection btwn high IQ and high creativity. Nowhere does that necessitate high achievement, though, since one can be of high IQ/ability and not performing highly in school for a variety of reasons.

Page 37 has the following table (formatting is messed up here I'm sure):

Table 1. Means and Standard Deviations for IQ and Creativity Test Scores (Z Scores for the Four Ability Groups: Gifted, Creative, Intelligent, and Average)

IQ test Creativity test
Group n M SD M SD
Average 12 99.83 4.63 49.67 5.02
Gifted 11 129.82 4.60 64.00 2.93
Creative 11 106.18 8.60 66.54 3.72
Intelligent 15 127.33 3.75 48.87 4.78

In other words, they state that:

The "average" kids had:
average IQs and average creativity

The "gifted" kids had:
IQs around the 98th percentile plus or minus a bit and high creativity

The "creative" kids had:
average IQs and high creativity

The "intelligent" kids had:
IQs pretty close to as high as the gifted kids and average creativity

I recently excerpted an article on "How to Be Creative" http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....25157/How_To_Be_Creative.html#Post125157

A high IQ doesn't necessarily mean you're creative, divergent, and/or a visual-spatial person. I know some may dispute it, but visual-spatial people do think and learn differently.

The vast majority of tests and work on giftedness involve auditory-sequential children or those who sit still, pay attention, think linearly and sequentially - you're ideal student. Performance in reading, writing, and math are easier to measure than say art/music or STE part of STEM. Here's a chart between the two - http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Visual_Spatial_Learner/vsl.htm

Creative and divergent thinkers do think differently; and the two are separate. Many creative people are divergent thinkers, but not all. Still, the two often go hand and hand. I think of this with artists/musicians/writers. I'm thinking of Captain Underpants' author Dav Pilkey and Roald Dahl - both of whom are highly creative and divergent thinkers.

Dr. Linda Silverman (author of Upside Down Brilliance) has studied those visual-spatial people like Dav Pilkey and how they can have high/average IQ and still excel in creativity and visual-spatial abilities. What she noticed with profoundly-gifted visual-spatial kids with high IQ is that they had exceptional reading, writing, and mathematical abilities. Some of the visual-spatial kids with lower IQ scores had learning disabilities (dyslexic) or attentional issues that hampered them. She describes how visual-spatial kids think and learn differently, which some of us have found very helpful.

For divergent thinking, here's an article from Dr. Lovecky's center:
http://www.grcne.com/divergent-thinker.html

Here's another article on high-IQ, creativity, and convergent/divergent thinking. It says that IQ does not measure divergent thinking and is only one piece of the puzzle:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ergent-thinking-are-necessary-creativity

As a parent of a 6.5-yr-old, eg/pg visual-spatial kid, I can understand and identify with what you're saying - lack of consistency at times and out-of-box thinking. How to nurture - besides arts/crafts? Well, I try to make sure we've got Legos and plenty of building blocks (wood or cardboard) around or opportunities for open-ended play (i.e. multi-colored pom poms for imaginative baking). I really don't do anything, but let my son think of different ways to use the materials - heaven, forbid, I make a suggestion or have an idea.

If a kid falls in the forest but doesn't have a carseat...



This is just a "ditto..." DS1 is really wierd, and I'm often blown away by how "advanced" other kids are compaired to him. But then something comes up and I have to make some stupid excuse for why we're reading *that,* or why he can do *that...* and then I'm convinced the same other kid is just parroting, and then it flips and it flops, and I'm left very confused. DS1 doesn't "know" anything unless he knows it in a way other kids just don't seem to worry about... he needs multiplucation to understand counting, evolution to understand what a flower is, etc.

I think DS is more different than "smart," but I do think he's auful smart. He is kinda sorta working above grade level, but he's 3, so take that for what it's worth. He shuts down when presented with kindergarden material because it's too simple *and* too hard; ask him if there are more boys or more girls, and he asks you to define your terms, which the teachers don't get at all.

Did I mention it's confusing...

My biggest concern is that our kids' natural creativity is being educated right out of them. How do we expect them to be creative thinkers when they are continually rewarded for conformity at school?

By rewarding nonconformity at home.

Thanks for the Divergent thinking article CDfox. I really enjoyed it. My daughter is def one of these. Fortunately, her teachers have graded her essays well, even though they are usually against the grain.

She had to develop her own world in response to "The Giver". Her teacher asked why there was no religion and she stated that she felt it caused more trouble than it was worth. She still got a good grade.

Even though she is in a really bad school, this is something I am happy for.

Take heart with a divergent thinker. They're so against the status quo and resist it at every opportunity - and some openly. Eliipses - love your daughter's response to "The Giver." At least she got a good grade, as you say.

I agree that you've got to develop the nonconformity/divergent thinking at home. The vast majority of schools do not tolerate it, even gifted ones. I think art schools are probably more receptive than the norm, but unfortunately these types of schools don't exist until high school or college. Until then, you either muddle through the public or private schools or end up homeschooling/unschooling as a default.

Wonder how someone like Picasso made it through the early grades? Dahl, I know from his biography, really struggled at Repton (English boarding school) and performed somewhat poorly. Dav Pilkey (Capt Underpants author) struggled in school as well. Of course, both Dahl and Pilkey used their experiences with the schools in their writings and drew strength (out of a bad situation) from it.

To me, it seems the kids who are divergent or creative seem to fall by the wayside, especially in the early grades and whether they're gifted or not. Some gifted schools may be more receptive, but there's still levels of conformity and expectations. With a eg/pg child, the outlandish creativity and divergent thinking may be more pronounced -- ie. what planet did they come from? -- so it becomes rather challenging in a formal school setting (and on a daily basis). It really depends on the school, teachers, other students, atmosphere, curriculum, pace, etc. and how they child can still be true to themselves without being swallowed by the sheep, dare I say.

This is one of the reasons why people are homeschool/unschooling. I've come across parents in my area with typically developing children who feared the public schools would quash the creative side and any passions/interests that their child/ren held.

I should add this article about a mother of pg twin boys from Hoagies:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/my_pg_boys.htm

So if you notice, these kids don't always follow in a linear or sequential manner and can leapfrog in developments/thinking.

Think it's bad - imagine two pg twin boys? Ugh.

cdfox - thanks for sharing this information

My son is younger than yours but sounds similar so I would like to learn from your experience if I can.

What learning situation has worked or not worked for him?

Mine is set for early K at a Montessori in the fall but we are still on the fence a bit as to what is best.

Well, that's a tough question. First, I'll say there's absolutely nothing for gifted kids or options for grade skipping/acceleration in the public schools in my state/area.

We've had mixed results with the gifted schools - which are mainly aimed at mg/hg kids from my experience. Last year, my son lasted 2 1/2 months at a traditional gifted school; he completed the pre-k/k/1st grade curriculum in that time. The school then refused to accelerate him to 2/3rd grade or accommodate the eg/pg part. My son was starting to multiply and the school basically threw up their arms. I then put him in a creative gifted school last March and this year. I'm hoping he can hold out until the end of the year, but it's been a struggle to say the least.

The creative gifted school has been better in some ways. The school has a total of 30 students from pre-k to 8th grade and three teachers. So it's a mixed-aged setting and he's been able to read at 4/5th grade level but been frustrated by the math and held back in addition until he completely masters it with www.xtramath (timed math facts). He's been frustrated that there's not another eg/pg kid like him there or someone he can click with. He's also been frustrated by some of the arty/crafty, which can go overboard, and with some of the rules and teachers, which can be a bit inflexible.

Next year, I'm planning to homeschool/unschool - by default. We've tried the public and private schools to no avail.

With schools, I think it all depends on the child, school, teachers, curriculum/content, other students, etc. I've heard some teachers are very flexible and accommodating. Others less so. Some curriculums or instructional methods (i.e. structure or phonics for reading) work better than others for certain kids. For my son, he needs some structure but not too much.

The vast majority of schools expect the child to fit to the curricula and not the curricula to the child. Yes, you'll find people here on this forum say that they've been able to grade skip with a public or private school or found got accommodations met, but I don't think this is the norm or even an option in some towns/cities or states where giftedness is not mandated.

Keep in mind, it's really hard to know how your child will react or respond until your child is presented and/or exposed. Then, you've got the issue of the other children in the classroom/school. That's potentially a big can of worms with a eg/pg kids. At the traditional gifted school, my son stood out like a sore thumb in the class. At the creative school, he's stood out less so and he's been able to mix with older kids, but it's still not providing what he needs either academically or social/emotionally.

I think with eg/pg kids, like my son, they can suddenly make great leaps or gulps in learning, which can be a challenge for schools. I don't think most teachers know how to deal with a eg/pg kid or their rapid acceleration or insatiable quest for information/learning.

Thanks so much for the great discussion here, sorry I lost track of this thread.

happyreader, I have the same concerns, but actually the article that Bostonian posted really helped me think about how to possibly counteract that pressure to conform. I like the idea of thinking of creativity as making connections between unrelated things/ideas. And so, one way to support our kid's out-of-the box thinking is to make sure they get exposure to lots of different things. Which makes me feel a bit better because, due to his own intensity, I have done this with DS since he was very small. He loves to learn, so we do all kinds of things (and sometimes get frustrated when places put age limits on certain activities!) I guess the best I can do is offer him lots of diverse subjects and experiences and give him the freedom to make those connections when and where he wants to!