When DS2.5 misbehaves, we usually make him apologizes to the offended parties and tell him that�s not an acceptable behavior.

Lately, he would cry hysterically after he apologizes as if he is physically hurt.

Most people don�t like to be corrected, but is it a little much to take criticism so harshly?

Seems normal to me.
For alternative Parenting for the 'highly intense' child - try
Lisa Bravo's 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook.'

The trick is to not only catch him doing good, but to create opportunities for him to behave well and make a very big deal about it. Do this about 100 times more than you think any child 'should' need. Then make misbehaving very boring - yes you must say 'No' but 'go inside you and regroup' is about right for most of a 2.5 year old's crimes.

Smiles,
Grinity

Thanks Grinity.

I bought the book (not the workbook) already. I just need to sit myself down and finish the darn thing. I have multiple books that I have started but not finished, and Transforming the Difficult Child is one of them.

It's funny that you wrote this is normal because my mom keeps telling me that DS is nothing like her children or other grandchildren.

Hmmm, are you certain he understands what he did wrong and why it was wrong and what would have been a better way of handling it?

I used the word "unacceptable" many times on my DD over the years before she finally broke down once and explained to me how much she hated that word. I learned that most of the time she really didn't know why her transgression was wrong and she just began to internalize that we found her to be unacceptable :-(.

I think Grinity's advice above is excellent.

Oops, I missed your post...now I wish I hadn't deleted my last sentence...something like:

My DD was recently diagnosed with AS and I now understand that even though her high intelligence would make you think otherwise, she really needed to have some things explained that would be obvious to most of us. I.e. why sometimes it is not acceptable to make a factual statement (if it could hurt someone's feelings).

Even if it is not your intent he may be feeling shamed and confused. A lot of what two year olds do "wrong" comes from either not understanding or not having the impulse control to avoid an offense. He gets he upset you but that doesn't mean he's better able to avoid it next time.

You may find it works better to positive phrase what you want to happen and make sure he understand it. Instead of "stop throwing the ball at the baby and say you are sorry. "The ball goes outside, do you want to put it outside or should I." Instead of "don't hit the dog" "the dog wants gentle pats, show me your gentle pats."

I see a lot more downsides to forced apologies that benefits. I think part of why so many adults really struggle with apologies is they associated them with shame they felt as a young child forced to apologize when they didn't even understand what went wrong.

And, I agree with the suggestion that a lot of it is about prevention. If you post some specific stuff you are having trouble with I bet people will be able to come up with more concrete suggestions.

Some examples:

� Warned DS ahead of time that it�s bedtime after one last book. When it�s time, he tried to hit DH. DH told him to go to bed, and he had a crying fit.
� After telling DS not to suck on his thumb, he tried to hit me. I told him to apologize, and he did and cried.

I just started explain to him afterward why those behaviors are not desirable (e.g. it hurts people's hurting, it hurts people physically, etc). I did ask him why he cry, but he couldn't articulate the reason and just keep reiterate that he cried.

I agree with ptp. My daughter was physically unable to apologise until recently (she just couldn't get the words out), she was so sensitive to our disapproval of whatever the action was that she was completely overwhelmed (and she didn't always understand why it would be necessary). We turned it on its head much as Potatoes has suggested. More recently (she's now 5.5)she seems ok with it and we've started talking in more detail about why an action might warrant an apology (and not just about her own actions, but characters in books and so on). She now apologises quite readily (though she rarely has cause to).

DD's preschool teacher once said to me that she never forces kids to apologise to each other because it takes all the meaning away from it (particularly if your forced to apologise and you don't understand why and/or genuinely don't feel you should have to). Instead she felt it was much more important for adults to model appropriate apologies.

I think too that that age is hard for gifted kids. Their asynchrony is so great - with heightened awareness but very limited understanding or experience re their emotional responses.

Best of luck!

I'd go with prevention first if you haven't done it already. The same number of books each night. A routine chart on the wall with a picture of the routine - picture of toothbrush, picture of PJs, picture of two books, etc. The more it is routine the more he will know what to expect. Try to start the routine early enough that he's not overtired.

In response to the hit, I'd encourage daddy to say "hitting hurts, gentle touches please" and offer him a chance to do over. I would also really encourage acknowledging his feelings "it is hard when you are tired."

At some point with a two year old I would acknowledge in your head when they are that tired all bets are off. They certainly aren't going to learn anything when they are in that state of exhaustion and big negative reactions from you may just be throwing fuel on the fire. Same goes when he's bawling from apologizing that's a sure sign he's upset and he's not learning from it. He might have about as much control over that as he'd have over throwing up.


� After telling DS not to suck on his thumb, he tried to hit me. I told him to apologize, and he did and cried.

The thumb is a huge source of comfort. Think about what you find most comforting - perhaps cuddling with your husband or baby? If somebody just came in and told you to stop it how much you react? Sure you probably wouldn't hit someone because you are a grown up, but what if you were two?

I'd start by really thinking through this decision. Does the thumb have to go? Why? What is it worth to you? The difficulty with stopping the thumb is that unless he sleeps in your bed and you are going to remain vigilant staying up all night he's likely still going to do it. So, what has really been accomplished by setting a limit that you can't stick with? Is there an alternative?

What we did around that age with the pacifier was to make a rule it only allowed in two places - bed or the calm down spot. That allowed the child to keep the comfort source but made it clear there was a time and place for it. It was really helpful in our situation in encouraging the child to develop a habit of taking a break when he was overwhelmed (instead of hitting or having a meltdown).

If you wanted to go with that plan I'd present it as a cheerful thing having him help you create a calm spot (maybe a bean bag chair, a stuffed toy, blanket, books or whatever) and then when the thumb goes in the mouth you can cheerfully say "Looks like you need to calm down, where's your spot?" That way you aren't running the risk he's talking with it in his mouth but he's still getting the comfort he needs and he's starting to learn other ways to self comfort too.
In time that can transition to losing the thumb if you need to.

Those are just a few ideas, take what makes sense leave the rest.

I don't think he needs to apologize for 'almost hitting' you - even if you 'helped' him not to hit you.
Then again, I'm not into the 'forced apology' thing. I'd rather say something like, "I see from your sad face that you are thinking "I'm sorry I hit you Mommy" ' that way you are teaching the desired behavior without a big lecture, in a way that isn't adding insult to fury.

As for thumb sucking, I was very luck that my son didn't suck his, but I would take a very good look at 'why' you are telling him not to suck his thumb in the first place... it's his thumb, and I promise that if you understood the stress a 2.5 year old giftie goes through in a single day, you'd be offering your own thumb.

At 2.5 it's great that you are giving him 'warnings' about what is coming up, but I would be very careful about getting emotionally involved if he can or can't make use of the warnings. Hitting is your son's way of showing that he doesn't like what is going on. Don't let him hit you, but this isn't a sign of your bad parenting or his internal badness - it's just what he does when he is angry. Praise every time he uses gental hands, and every time he uses his words. If he yells "I don't want to go to bed" that is a big step forward and you can praise that he didn't hit. If he shows the slightest hesitation in hitting - you can praise his self control.

As smart as he is, he won't be good for much when he is emotionally 'hijacked' - and if you look around at most adults, we are the same way. And as smart as he is, you can 'trick him' into behaving with more and more self control, co-operation, emotional strength by pointing out all the ways he already has those qualities.

Parenting is a very yucky job at times. I don't like having to give orders, or being disobeyed. You are posting here - which means that you are a caring parent, sensitive to your child, who wants things to go well - good for you! You have the 'Transforming book' already - great first step. Take your pure frustration and hold it inside you for a minute and turn it into an energy source to up your parenting skills. Go determination. Go Sensitivity. Go Mom!

Smiles,
Grinity

This may be true or your mom may have forgotten. My mom also didn't recognize my son's intensity in me or my brothers. Of course, that isn't how I remember things - one of my brother's had a terrible temper - used to turn bright red - and DM used to send me to him to 'jolly him up.'

I used to return 'helpful advice' such a the above with a very defensive 'Well, that's because you were so much better a parent than I am - what do you expect?' or 'Gee, Mom, do you have to rub it in? I'm insecure enough as it is?' and it was so over the top that we could both laugh. As the only daughter and oldest, my Mom and I were always very competitive. The alternative is to just agree that your DS is 'an unusual boy' and ask for any respite care your mom will give!

See if you can get any family movies to watch and if you are lucky, you might get your mom talking about some beautiful forgotten memories.

Peace,
Grinity

I was just reading
http://www.shulamit.info/funnel.htm
an analogy of why highly gifted kids seem to be so immature so much of the time....really liked it.
G

My DS is 2yr 10mo and we have to be super careful in how we reprimand him. Using too harsh a tone of voice or a disapproving face upsets him greatly. He was excused from the dinner table for refusing to eat and throwing food a few weeks ago. His father was very calm and did not lose his temper in the least, but DS's feelings were so hurt that it turned into an hour long sob fest that required physical consoling to calm him down. He is devastated to get into trouble.

DD8 was and is similar. In my opinion, this is normal behaviour... but my definition of normal is obviously very skewed!!

Hello Baby, I hadn't seen your last post when I made my post. Your son sounds very similar to my daughter at that age. She still sucks her thumb at night time and for all the reasons already given, we let her. Some times she'll use it at other times when she's really tired or stressed, but otherwise you never see her sucking her thumb. I guess I would wonder too if insisting on it not being used might make it more difficult for him to stop using it rather than more, as the insistence creates more stress for him? I like the idea of a calm spot - might introduce that one here.

DD5.5 is still a bit of a hitter (perhaps a couple of times a month and only to dh and I as she bottles everything up to be 'very, very good' elsewhere). She tends to hit when she is really frustrated. I remember being the same when I was a kid and I can still feel the sense of relief that came with a physical reaction to my frustration (and even now, I will often exercise or do some kind of vigorous activity to calm myself down). My husband comes down on dd like a ton of bricks for any kind of hitting, where as I am more inclined to help her find another outlet for it. For example I encourage her to punch a pillow when she's very frustrated and I can see her itching to release it in some way (rightly or wrongly, this seems very effective) and we ensure she gets lots of physical activity every day (though she never seems to get enough - she could, and has, literally run all day). I have no real idea, but I do wonder if dd's kind of uncontrolled hitting has something to do with a combination of emotional and psychomotor over excitabilities. Certainly hitting in our house is unacceptable if it is a conscious decision that has been made (which we had a short lived period of), but most often when dd hits it is quite obvious that has lost control and we need to take another approach. Obviously she is older than your son, but once we have resolved whatever caused the frustration we talk about how she felt when she hit out, how she might have felt in the past when someone has hit her, how the person she hit might have felt and whether or not she feels and apology is appropriate.

We have found routine (x number of books at bed time, x amount of screen time, special cereal only one day on the weekend, x activity after school on y day) very effective in reducing dd's frustrations and we warn her when things are no likely to go to plan. Now she's bigger we have her participate in making decisions around routine. Our routine and her involvement also allows us to calmly walk away when dd looses it because she's not getting what she wants and what she wants is outside of the realms of what was agreed (i.e. if she wants to watch an extra half hour of TV, read for an extra 15 minutes at bed time etc). She's had what was agreed, so I'll calmly explain that I understand she's disappointed but that I'm ready to move on to whatever else we're doing once she's calm. Then I leave her to it and get on with my own thing (it took practice not to get drawn back in). Once she's ready I give her a big hug, chat about it if it's necessary or appropriate and get on with the next activity. I can't say whether or not it has reduced the number of melt downs or whether that has just been because of her maturing, but it does prevent the two of us getting more and more frustrated with each other!

I'll make a call on what is causing this...frustration with impulse control! He knows what is right, but has difficulty controlling himself still.

My son did the same thing. (reiterating his bad behavior as he cried over it).

Another thought: If your child is very self-aware, he may be embarrassed to be reprimanded in front of other people. I once read that a parent, who for instance, has an "issue" arise with her child when his friends are over, should take him aside privately to talk it over. In other words, help them to "save face".

Another example: My son used to say things to me that made me cry. My husband went in and had a private conversation with him on how he hurt me with his "choice of words", and suggested other things to say to get his point across without hurting feelings.

Possibly, you could give your child other ideas to get his feelings across without hitting. Maybe something as simple as having him actually say "I'm angry!" or "I want more!". Then give him lots of positive feedback for using his "words" and not hitting.

BTW...I always try to give my son something to look forward to. If I tell him story time is over, I will tell him tomorrow night he can have two books. Or if I tell him he can't have a cookie now, I will give him an exact time he can.

I found that helped him a lot, and shut down the tantrum quickly.

I've noticed this with dd5, the feeling that she doesn't want to apologize because it will mean she really did something wrong, there is something wrong with her, she is a bad person, etc..(from what I can gather).. If I have my wits about me when something like this happens, I control my tone, expression etc., to make it sound like we 'are all reasonable people here, nothing HORRIBLE has happened!', bit of a smile, '**But** you do need to know that is wrong, and to please apologize so we can all keep playing/shopping, etc.'.

It is hard for me, she drives me kind of crazy and I tend to overreact, but that is usually the quickest path to her digging in her heals. Sigh. I am learning, slowly.

I find this normal also. Young children do have a hard time apologizing and break down afterwards but it changing as they age a few years and they accept this is responsible behavior.

I have held DD many a times after I made her apologize because she totally broke down when she was 3, even 4 but now she gets it at 6. I remember she was around 4 when she made a comment to a little boy she knew, who has one arm, about how he couldn't do something because of one arm. I explained why she hurt his feelings and she had to apologize. I almost had to drag her back to do it and it was really hard for her but she did it, then totally broke down but it was the right thing to do and today they are still friends.

Valuable lesson to learn to apologize at an early age.

Ren

I am not overly concerned about him hitting or refusing to apologize. I think those are pretty normal at his age.

I just don't understand why he breaks down after being (calmly) corrected. I guess he takes the corrections very personally.

Hitting or refusing to apologize is not acceptable in society.

You are taking my post totally out of context.

I never said those are acceptable behavior even for a child, and I do discipline my child when he misbehaves.

Please ignore Wren when she's acting snarky. Wren has a lot of good comments and is often well worth listening too, but at times, one has to overlook the one liners. Most of us on this forum are very kind and thoughtful posters most of the time - but we all have our challenges from time to time. Please help keep the tone of this Forum as supportive as possible given the diversity by ignoring or taking to Private Message our lapses, ok?

Thanks,
Love and More Love,
Grinity

I don't think Wren was intentionally being snarky, I think she misinterpreted the first sentence to mean "I don't mind if my child hits..." rather than "that my child hits is something I am prepared to deal with and correct, but I am posting here because of my concern about my child's reaction to being corrected"

Crying after an apology:

- Feeling of separation or distance from parents creates anxiety and they feel the need for reassurance they are loved. With a sensitive kid a quicker and more perfunctory handling of it may be enough for them to internalize a concept. If even a quick, "Oops did you hit? Hitting hurts. Say sorry" is still upsetting then perhaps inject humor -- tell the hand to apologize rather than the child, or after the sorry do an "all better" dance together, holding hands. (Beware humor with other kids, who may then hit on purpose to get mom to talk to the hand).

- Or perhaps overall emotional intensity is just high. They were already unhappy and now it's all just way worse. Basically over-stimulated. (nothing much to do for that but distraction or time for bed).

- Truly sorry and feeling bad, guilt or shame. Or upset over lack of personal control. Or since they may not feel like hitting any more, it may be difficult to feel responsible for it at all. Developmental incongruities where the ability to empathize is more developed than self-understanding or control. (wait for a calm time and have a deep conversation. Or read a book about manners together at some calm time).

- Confused because the aggression was due to anger but the communication of that (inappropriately) caused a problem and now the focus is on something else entirely. Apologized, and now parents say its all okay but it's clearly not because still mad. (Reward any use of words to express anger (offer compromise or hug, or gently talk it out) so that he can have success using words when angry).

DSs preschool interestingly did not have children do a direct apology for aggressions. They felt the process (sometimes long) of getting such a young child to say sorry loud enough and to the right person distracted from the objective of getting both kids to say words to eachother next time. So each kid was to tell the other with words how they felt, and the aggressor was told to use those words next time. Then the aggressor was to go get a cold pack and give it to the victim, a concrete job to do. Both kids seemed to feel better after the process.

Not suggesting you step away from asking for an apology, saying sorry is a good skill and consistency is good too. Was just interesting to me that this school's feeling was it was complicated to both do apology and encourage using words to express feelings.

Polly

Children do react about being corrected. It is their instinctual power play. How much can they away with? Hence why some parents do not want to correct and think they went too far.

Back when my parents, and my friends parents spanked routinely, no parent worried about the child crying after spanking. It was what happened but children learned to behave back then.

I am not advocating spanking, I do not spank. But I have always done the consequences and although it hurt when my child cried in the corner and I sat and counted because she needed to learn. Find me a kid who likes their bad behavior corrected and I will point out the second coming.

Is that snarky? Do I need a time out?

Ren

I think that's very thoughtfully said and not snarky. (Except for the part about asking if it's snarky, which is of course snarky, but I deserve it, so that's ok with me!) I don't think it's necessarily true, but I think it is of high level and helps the conversation along. I love it when you give us the fuller picture of your sweet and pointy mind. This is a gifted issues because a lot of us think at such a high speed that it feels like a drag (ok-litterally) to slow down. But there are time when it's important to do just that. Most of us are so used to a heterogeneous environment where we can 'fire at will' and be right 99% of the time. ((shrug))

Perhaps we can create a 'snark-positve' thread over on the Discussion area. I'll start.
Peace,
Grinity

Never until now have I ever been called sweet. And anyone who truly knows me will say that. Trustworthy, reliable and the fiercest mother that lived to protect her child. Never sweet.

My edges are sharp. But that is how they are. If I want something I use them to push for it. But I don't hit....said with a smile.

I expressed an opinion. Another lesson I teach my daughter. If it doesn't feel right, ignore and more on.

Ren

Here's my two cents

I do not spank or yell (well, not often) and I do try to correct them privately, but I still will often get an upset child after being spoken to about behavior. Sometimes I even get told "Mom, why are you telling me this it makes me feel so bad." My response is that it is okay to feel bad, it is more than okay it is what tells you that you are a compassionate feeling person who feels upset with yourself when you hurt someone else. I tell them that it is important to learn to sit with that feeling and not try to rationalize it away (by blaming others or making excuses) because it is your moral compass.

Too many people these days do not want to take responsibility for their actions and/or simply can't or won't sit with some guilt or shame. Guilt/Shame feel HORRIBLE for a reason...they are the hangovers from bad behavior.

That being said, I have to sit on my hands and close my eyes to not try and make them feel better right away. We also always have a talk afterward that includes how/why the behavior occurred and that there is a difference between learning how to be in the world and being a bad person. I point out that we are all works in progress.

Well put Breakaway. Totally agree and compliment you on your elucidation.

Ren

I really disagree with this analysis. It is true that many adults use the forced apology as a power play themselves. I can MAKE you apologize. On the other hand, kids react badly when corrected for many different reasons. Some kids are not looking for power at all. They genuinely feel bad and out of control and at two don't know how to handle it. Our child who reacted in a way that many would see as out of proportion turned out to be very frustrated with himself any time he didn't measure up to behaving like an adult because that's who was comparing himself to. Any adult correction was just a louder voice saying the stuff he was already saying to himself in his own head. He didn't need harsh correction for behaving in age typical ways. He needed opportunities to try again and not be so hard on himself.

From my perspective forced apologies aren't teaching real responsibility. They are teaching faked forced apologies. Based on what we see with politicians in the news this is a skill some have totally mastered but I can't say I find it a particularly valuable one. I'd much rather a two year old begins to hear how others are hurt and then in time evolves to giving voluntary apologies and other methods of taking responsibility. We never forced apologies but saw very genuine ones emerging by age three and four.

I don't think that a forced apologize negates the explanation of why it must be done. When I made my daughter apologize about a hurtful comment to the boy with one arm, I explained to her why she was in the wrong and how it hurt the boy's feelings. One some level she may have known the hurt she was inflicting but my daughter didn't pop out with emotional maturity.

And I think, even though she was 3, it wasn't a matter of needing opportunities to try again, as she doesn't run into boys with one arm except this one since. Perhaps your son is an exception, my daughter needed the explanation and the forced apology.

Ren

My first child was a gentle one who only needed to be taught and corrected. Anything more then that would cause more harm then good. Now my second child, my daughter, she would run me over with that approach. She is an intense, passionate and powerful personality. I had to learn to be the one to help her control herself and I had to learn to meet her intensity. In honesty, I learned some of that by reading Wren's posts. I am not naturally intense but I appreciated that it was needed. Different children with different parenting requirements and I'm glad that I can come to such a place to find it.

I can't say I fully understand the one arm incident. Maybe she was intentionally hurtful or nasty (most three year olds tend to be pretty nice people, just often clueless about exactly how to do it).

However, it is very easy for me to imagine many three year olds may make a comment about of ignorance or even out of a mistaken desire to be helpful and I'm not sure in either of those situations it is useful to force an apology. I know as a parent of a child with disabilities, if the comment was just insensitive "hey what's wrong with that kid's arm?" the forced apology would be make the situation worse not better. It is the hush-hush, it is too horrible to even speak of thing that is frankly harder to take. If it is just a matter of a young child saying something "that lady is so fat" "what is wrong with that man's legs?" I do not feel forced apologies are appropriate or helpful. Rather, I think kids benefit much more from an honest conversation about differences, when it is hurtful to point them out, and how it is appropriate to acknowledge them.

As far as knowing your child needs to be forced to apologize, I don't buy it. The many parents who modeled but did not force apologizes, who have kids who naturally developed the ability to apologize can authoritatively say their kids didn't need to be forced. Really, you can't say that your kid did because you didn't try the alternative.

I think you have to parent the kid you have. My child needed me to make him apologize and script it for him until he understood what was required. (And yes, it did freak him out, mostly because he felt that admitting he was wrong would somehow have earth-shattering consequences.)

With this kid, "fake it till you make it" has been necessary: practice saying the right things, and sooner or later, you'll mean them and say them at the right occasion.

P2P, it's great that your child didn't need this level of support. Everyone's mileage will vary in this, as in so much else. But I don't think this is a black-white moral issue; it's a matter of getting the child to perceive and do the right thing, and there's more than one way to get there.

DeeDee

It isn't about "level of support". Kids who aren't forced to apologize aren't getting less parenting or less support; in fact they may be getting much more. It is about a different initial set of beliefs about children. If you believe: kids are willful and must be forced to be compliant, kids are mean and must be forced to be nice, kids are bad and must forced to be good - then forced apologies make perfect sense. If on the other hand you believe that kids are born with a desire to learn and get along with others but they often lack the maturity, resources, and skills to do so - then shaming them and forcing them to apologize makes no sense.

It also probably gets to what you believe about apologies. Some people seem to believe in the ritual for the sake of the ritual. Philandering politician mutters "sorry for disappointing my wife, I'll get treatment" and then it is all better. From my perspective fake apologies are often worse than no apologies at all. Teaching kids to fake contrition teaches them to lie and it makes apologies an act of power (I can force you to apologize).

I believe that kids are born with different levels of desire to get along with others (some with much, some with little, some with none). That my DS has autism surely shapes this belief: some kids are more wired for social skills, some less. Different kids, different parenting strategies.

I didn't say shaming, BTW.

DeeDee

Yes, I will certainly agree that kids on the spectrum may need different types of instruction. I do not think making a two year old on the spectrum apologize is any more productive than forcing a two year old who isn't though.

To claify, DD made a comment about how he could do something, since he had one arm. I cannot remember, since it has been years, but it was a statement. "you can't do ...." It was hurtful since his parents emphasize he can do anything. She had to learn how hurtful it was and wrong for her to say it. To this day, they are still friends and I think it was right for her to go and apologize, though she fought me on it and cried in my arms afterwards. But they played the rest of the summer. I think he would have harbored a grudge against her if she hadn't said sorry. And rightfully.

It was a great learning opportunity and she is great with kids that have disabilities nowa and respectful.

Ren

I strongly agree with PTP on this. Not being forced to apologise certainly doesn't equate to a lack of discipline in our house nor has it lead to a kid that doesn't apologise. Also,raising my daughter been not an easy process from a discipline perspective. We have had periods where quite frankly my daughter was not terribly likable. However dd's now consistently excellent behaviour is regularly praised by teachers/friends/strangers and she has exceptional manners. Hitting, not apologising, or whatever other 'negative' behaviour she might exhibit from time to time doesn't get my daughter what she wants. Following a lot of hard work (considered and consistent removal of privileges or attention being the main tools, combined with explanation and expectation) , she is very clear about what our expectations are and she knows that if we've said no, generally nothing's going to change. There are occasions where we 'bend the rules' and when that happens we'll always explain why it is an exception. That's not to say her behaviour is perfect, but when it isn't there is almost always a reason behind it - stress, hunger, tiredness etc.

We got there through honest explanation and high expectations, not through forced apologies or arbitrary punishments (no one has mentioned arbitrary punishments, I just mention them as I see them in the same category of responses). I also feel (and I'm not suggesting this is what you're doing Ren, this is just my general philosophy) that girls are expected to apologise far too readily. I want my daughter to feel confident in her opinions and decisions and not to have to apologise for them when they don't fit other's views. Also, I want her to take genuine responsibility when she does do the wrong thing and not to see an apology as a free pass. For me that comes about through understanding the impact you might have on others and understanding yourself and why you feel/think the way you do.

I have a recurrent thought when I watch people interact with kids and that is that so often people's expectations of children are very low (all kids, not just gifted). In my interactions with kids, either when we have them over to play or when I am helping out at school, I really believe that when kids are given an opportunity to take ownership of their actions they invariably step up to the plate and are proud to do so.

I don't have anywhere near enough knowledge about kids on the spectrum to have views on your son's needs DeeDee,and just wanted to mention that I don't mean to imply that our experience is applicable to your circumstance.

I'm sure it is all about the tone. I can easily see a three year old making a factual statement not intending to hurt feelings AND another three year old not having their feelings hurt by it. "You can't pick your nose with two hands at the same time" or whatever.


Years of grudge holding for a preschooler seems really extreme. Kid friendships often involve some "you can't" kind of trash talk. Not saying that is full license to be a jerk, but that it is really a situation by situation kind of thing and kids have a way of working this stuff out. Probably all of them have said something meaner than they wish they would have and in time they learn to apologize. Often the forced apologies are a lot more about adults feeling embarrassed than kids actually learning something meaningful.

While I certainly would encourage my child to avoid children who target disabilities for bullying or teasing, I wouldn't encourage holding a lifelong grudge against a three year old friend for something they said. I'd teach my kid the more appropriate matter of fact response would be "oh yeah I can see me..." or "yup, you are right I can't, one arm." In our experience the hard thing isn't the direct comments such as "you can't" it is kids who feel so shamed and worried that they feel embarrassed to even acknowledge reality or worse yet, try to talk you out of if it when you do.

The forced apologizing and the crying kid would have made it much more upsetting to a lot of kids than the original offense.

Really good point. Lots of teen girls out there really struggle with this including, for example, feeling justified in not going out with a guy they aren't interested in because they don't want to hurt his feelings.

I can understand your viewpoints but I was there and I dealt with it as I saw fit. My child learned and their relationship strengthened. This little boy, who has to deal with a lot of questions and other children reacting negatively found DD to be a good friend as a result and someone he could trust to be with.

And she learned to not be "factual". Yes, she was and she had to learn not to be so. We are dealing some adults in the family in a similar manner and I had to take them to task on a different issue. She had to learn not to see the glass as half empty for this boy but half full.

And learning to apologize hasn't weakened Dd. I was just complimented today by another mother that it is rare that a child is as confident as DD. We were discussing her child redoing K, common practice to red shirt in NJ.

She is front and center of every situation.

Ren

This is a really interesting thread. In terms of all the snarky discussions, this is what I love about this board, even when there re opinions flying all around, I stop and think, well what do I do, and why do I do it. I love that there are so many different parenting approaches but targeted towards kids more like mine than I usually see.

We fall in the forced apology camp (although I had not thought of it that way) but not exactly the same and for the same reasons. When DS was smaller, 2 maybe, we would take him into his room after a transgression and tell him he needed to stay and think about it until he was ready to apologize. Initially it was just a way of not saying time out which I hated the idea of, but saying you need to calm down, think about why you were here, and it gave him a way to reengage - shouting from his room, I am ready to apologize. And then we would discuss what happened, why, and how to move forward.

We still do that but the forced appologies now are more about recognition that he has wronged someone, which he can be oblivious to. So more like being reminded of saying please and thank you.

What I haven't liked and we have had to deal with is the attitude that you can do something wrong, not really be sorry and yet try to get around it by saying sorry. Interestingly he always has a different tone when he does that.

In our house, the whole thing is ritual now, with the I accept your apology signaling the end of the big fuss and the adults and child do it. It is very touching to see a 5 year old solemly accepting a parents apology for yelling, or some thing like that.

It is interesting how responses become patterns, and when you need to adjust them. Food for thought here for me.

DeHe