My older son is gifted, WISC 140. He's hearing impaired, which we didn't know when we tested him, so I don't know if his IQT tested lower than how he would be if he weren't hearing impaired.
We are getting his younger brother tested, partly to learn more about him, partly since it will open up doors for our local gifted program. He's 6. He doesn't seem gifted like his brother; I don't mean that unkindly, LOL!
Have people found that, that one kid is gifted and the other isn't? Or am I seeing some birth order effect, that the oldest is bossier, more of a leader, seems smarter, etc?

I'm curious to see what everyone has to say on this topic! I have 5 children and my oldest (10 and a boy) has been the only one identified as gifted so far. He scored 140 on the wisc also. He also has adhd.

I have read that siblings' IQs are within 10 points of each other. My little one is very sweet and seems totally normal. My older one is a bit edgy, uses big words, and likes to be the expert (even when he has no idea what he is talking about!).
Once in awhile, the little one seems very bright- he has memorized each word of several 50 page star wars books. Other times, he will say "I goed" instead of "I went." He's 6.

This is a very interesting thread. Even though I shouldn't compare, I find myself constantly baffled by the difference between DD7 and DS3. My DD hit all of her 'milestones' so early that it didn't even make sense to read any of the early years info, books, etc. My DS3 is a whole different ballgame. I'm assuming that my DS3 is developmentally 'typical' but it's so hard trying to figure it out when my only point of reference is DD. On the flip side my DS3 is so much more emotionally mature than DD7!!!! I don't think that he has ever experienced a true 'tantrum' and seems to have deep emotional insight and a sensitivity for others that DD is just starting to understand. The other bonus is that he is never so consumed in his own thoughts that he can always remember where I put the car keys!

I don't remember the exact statistic, but from what I remember is that this is true about 2/3rd of the time. If I remember correctly the study was done with a very small number of people.

There also may or may not be numbers to predict that spouse will be similar in IQ. Dr. Ruf says it's because 'We feel comfortable with people who get our jokes.'

If you take these to ideas together, it can be predicted that most gifted folks feel like their kids are 'nothing special' because the kids are similar to their memories of their siblings, cousins, and their friend's kids. When Kindy starts there is a huge 'cognitive dissonance' between how we say our kid as normal, and how real normal really is. That happened to me for sure. I remember my younger brother learning to read at age 3 when I was age 6. So on one hand I was freaked out when my son's teacher pointed out that he learned to recognize his letter sounds at age 2 and she was clearly sending me the message that this was unusual, but then DS didn't seem to be able to put the letters together and read until age 5-6, which compared to my brother seemed very unimpressive. In retrospect I think that DS's eye tracking was developing on the slow side of age-normal. DS even asked me around age 10 why I tried teaching him to read by showing him letters, and why didn't I just say the letters aloud? He accused me of being a visual learner and projecting - LOL! ((Everyone's a critic!!))


Birth Order and Personality make if very difficult for parents to be able to detect giftedness in later born children if the first born is noticeably gifted. Dottie and I talked it over, and we say: 'Test One-Test them all!'

I've also read a study that shows that parents are better at Identifying gifted kids than teachers. As a group, this is like saying that an SUV has better gas mileage than a Hummer. We parents still aren't perfect at gifted ID. If my son hadn't had behavior problems in the regular classroom, I would never have pursued IQ testing and would have been able to go on thinking he didn't have special educational needs. I might have encouraged him take the SATs for CTY summer camp if it had been publicized at his school, but it wasn't. In retrospect, I've very grateful for those behaviors which were so humiliating for me back then.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

All three of my kids present very differently and all three test as gifted. With my girls who are both HG+, one is twice exceptional, the other is not. With my son who has had only school GT testing, well, he's a boy. He missed that teacher-pleasing gene that the girls seem to have. I'm thankful for the friend who gave me the "test them all" advice. If we hadn't, DD9 probably wouldn't have been identified as gifted and wouldn't have received any support for her dyslexia until much later.

FYI, the reading aspects of the Ruf levels have not corresponded well to my kids. I guess they would be considered late-bloomers since two of them did not learn to read until they were 5, my dyslexic DD read at 6. My girls were both stronger on math and non-verbal measures. I don't have complete data on DS yet.

I'm interested in this thread as well. We had DS9 tested at age 7 because we were trying to see how "out there" he was, and whether or not it was likely that the current school could accommodate him.

We have less motivation to test our current DS7 because the school is already trying to initiate change at our request. So, we'll probably wait until he's taken the standardized tests in 3rd grade, which may qualify him for talent searches and we'll start then. So, it's likely we'll not know whether he's gifted and how gifted until then.

DS7 is obviously bright, but not the voracious learner that DS9 was (from birth, it seemed), so he's not so obvious at this point. I wish we could find a cheaper way to get him tested, though, because I frequently worry that we're so focused on DS9's academics that maybe DS7 doesn't end up getting what he needs.

Check local Universities that train educational psychologists. You may get a very good deal.

GRR my computer is giving me a hard time!!

Grinity, how would personality make it difficult for parents to detect giftedness? Just curious, I have 5 kids and only my firstborn male has been identified.

I'm not Grinity, but I can answer this, at least partially.

Some kids are shy or passive and don't like to ask for things or push adults, instead waiting for things to be offered, so while they may be capable of of learning very quickly, and may have absorbed a great deal, they may not demonstrate it spontaneously, and may not ask for more.

Some kids like to fit in and are wary of behaving in ways that make them stand out from their peers, and may not show what they know, even to parents, because it is important to them to be seen as fitting in and not drawing attention to their differences.

Some kids may have "behavior problems" or "attitude problems" that are actually boredom problems, but because they appear to be uninterested in "learning" (because they mastered the material on their own long before) and perform poorly in class (because they are bored and/or insulted by being asked to do such simple material), giftedness is not suspected. A child whose response to this kind of boredom and frustration is to mouth off or be a class clown is often a gifted child but is often not identified as such.

Hidden learning disabilities can also complicate the identification of gifted children by making it more difficult for them to demonstrate what they are truly capable of.

These are just a few of the ways that personality and other issues can interfere with the easy identification of giftedness.

I would have said my DS3 is not gifted. He just didn't seem to be. DD5 gifted teacher said to me the other day that she'd be seeing him in a few years. Apparently DD has been telling her things about him. He's starting to "read" words and does addition problems. This is very normal or actually compared to DD below normal and has an extensive vocabulary. At 3 she could write her name, she could add and subtract, and was reading books. So we figured that what he was doing all other 3 year olds were doing. Apparently I was very wrong. Watching him more closely we're starting to see giftedness.

Thanks so much aculady

My gifted kid was identified after his kindergarten teacher "suffered" for 3 months trying to deal with his behavior. She requested my permission to have him tested.

I think it's possible my other kids may be leaning towards gifted but I'm not sure how to go about getting them tested. The school they are at now has to see a need before they will conduct testing and I just don't know.

How old/what grade are your 5?
Are the younger ones doing well in school or is there a 'boredom problem?'
Is there a gifted program, and if so, what grade does testing happen for that?
Love and More Love,
Grinity

You can also check out this website: http://www.pbs.org/parents/childdevelopmenttracker/ and compare milestones. It's not a perfect way to find out but might help to get an idea.

The one I am most concerned with (aside from the unmotivated 10 yr old) is my 5 yr old. He frequently says he hates school and cries sometimes. When I ask him why, he says it's because "It's too long". He doesn't really seem academically advanced (I say this of my 10 yr old too though) but he just learned to read very recently and has progressed quickly and can spell out fairly difficult words for a 5 yr old who couldn't read 2 months ago. Gifted education starts here in 3rd grade so they won't test until 2nd grade. The thing is that he has a vastly different personality than my older gifted kid.

Then start with the 5 year old. Have a meeting with the teacher and let him/her know that your 5 year old is crying about school and saying he hates it. Tell the teacher that you are worried about his social and emotional development - it isn't normal for a 5 year old to hate school and you KNOW that your 5 year old really loves teacher, so what is going on? Then hand her a written, on paper, letter requesting the school to look into this matter, including IQ testing.

It may not work, but it may. The other alternative is private testing, if $s aren't a big issue.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

LotsOtots5,

My DD9 got 134 and my DD6 got 142 when they were tested at 5. DD9 is shy and would do all she can not to draw attention from others whereas DD6 craves it. DD9 is getting good grade at 4th grade but not above grade level but DD6 is in 2nd grade and she got CTY Honor for 2nd grade (above 4th grade Math and reading).

DD9 is coming around. We were happy with her being in TAG cluster class and did not challenge/supplement her and she was happy with where she was at. With her little sister right behind her, she is now ready to move ahead again.

Yes, personality may mask the giftedness. My DD6 is bossier than DD9 (in class as well) and the birth order does not really matters in our family.

This has always been interesting to me as well. DS6 is a PG child. He did everything early and is constantly seeking more and more information and learning. Before he could walk he would crawl to pick out his favorite books off shelves and LOVED books. He was matching things before he could walk and would carry around things in pairs as he crawled...and was reading before 2.

DD3 is so incredibly different, but such an amazing little girl. She too enjoys reading a lot, but not as much as DS. She is quite creative, imaginative, and very expressive in every way. She is dramatic and very verbal. She picks up on things quickly, and wants to do really well at things. She knows all her letters and the sounds they make. She knows some numbers and can count objects and group them all. She knows her shapes (and definitely colors as she has to match her outfits). She draws pretty cool pictures, but she is not all that interested in letters and words and reading. She is much more into dress-up, princesses, telling elaborate stories, making things, drawing, and loves to watch TV. They play wonderfully together most of the time, but are oh so different. I imagine we will have her tested sometime, but am not in as much of a hurry since I don't think we will be requesting the K skip like we did with DS. DD goes to a preschool for 3yo's for 4 hrs a week and she doesn't seem to like it much. She likes it after she goes, but not when she is on her way. She does seem to have some friends there and she is quite outgoing (after her initial watching people being shy phase). I am wondering if she is just not connecting with the other kids as she does seem to prefer older girls to play with. She keeps wanting to go to her brothers school with him. Anyhow, it is just hard to believe how different they are....but I find it fascinating watching them each teach eachother things. She teaches him more social skills and he teaches her academic things

My 2 cents: dd14 & ds8 are both pretty "classic" cases of gifted kiddos. I could go down the checklists & check off 2/3 to 3/4 of the traits for each of them. Besides, I could tell since I was a gifted child. It was like some kind of radar.
BUT...my dd11 doesn't exhibit gifted behaviors. I knew she was smart, but she didn't seem like my other two. But we are finding out that she may have some sort of learning problems that are neurological in nature. She had an IQ test a couple of months ago & as it turns out, all three of their IQs measure within 5 points of one another. Go figure.

fraternal twins both with WISC IV scores of matching 138's (different subset scores though!)
prior to testing I would have guessed I had one with a 125-130 and one 135-140 (DH and I are both 135-140ish)

All pink, that's interesting about the twins matching scores. Fraternal twins are technically just like regular siblings right? What about them made you think their scores would have been different?

Grinity, he has a parent teacher conference at the end of this month. I'll see what his teacher has to say. The thing is that she is an excellent teacher and kids of all levels are challenged in class. My son rarely brings home workbook pages and when he does, he has his own little math problems handwritten on the back. But I agree, a kindergartener shouldn't hate school.

Shelly, your situation seems somewhat similar to mine. My dd7 was a very early talker and prefers imaginary play most of the time. She is best friends with the 10 year old girl next door.

Please don't wait a month for parent teacher conference if your child hates school. Conference day is a very stressful time for teachers. Put yourself in the teachers shoes...do you really want a serious situation sprung on you when the meeting might be scheduled every 15 minutes. You don't have to attack the teacher in any way....it is your job as parent to help the teacher by closing the communication loop.

Love and more love
Grinity

I would never do that I wrote her a note a few weeks ago asking if he was having any problems in class because he was crying before school and upset when it wasn't saturday or sunday. He just says that he doesn't like school because it takes too long. I'm not sure if there's more to it than that or not, you know?

Send an email asking for phone call today. You can ask the teacher if she wants to wait or if she wants to schedule an individual meeting beforhand.

Please don't wait for parent teacher conference if your child hates school. Conference day is a very stressful time for teachers. Put yourself in the teachers shoes...do you really want a serious situation sprung on you when the meeting might be scheduled every 15 minutes. You don't have to attack the teacher in any way....it is your job as parent to help the teacher by closing the communication loop.

Love and more love
Grinity

I agree don't wait. My DD5 was going through the same thing in Kindergarten. Stomach ache every morning. Fighting to get dressed and get out the door. Tell us she hated school. One day I told my husband that I was going to send a note to the teacher about what was going on and asked if she knew of anything going on at school that could be contributing to this. She emailed me back that she recommended DD to be tested. I was shocked. It took from when I emailed around the middle of Oct to the middle of November to get her tested. As soon as we got the scores and had our meeting they told us that it was in her best interest to move her to 1st grade. We all agreed that having a 5 year old hating school was a bad thing. She started first grade the Monday after our Thursday meeting the first week of Dec. She's much happier now but we are still seeing issues so once again I need to go back into the school. I have a list of concerns that I will be discussing with the teacher. I want to do it calmly and have my thoughts laid out. I don't want to go in there combative and emotional.

I hope your meetings turn out well.

OK, I've FINALLY read that enough on this board for it to sink in and to finally make it happen for DS7. I called around to local universities and educational psychs and found someone affordable enough for us to consider, AND she even has an opening before we're scheduled to meet with the school admin about next year for both DC.

I talked with her quite a bit about the tests, and about DS7's perfectionism and she said what I thought were the right things, particularly about how to encourage responses other than, "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" which is what I expect him to say a lot.

So, my fingers are crossed that DS stays healthy and cooperates as fully as he can. And thanks, Grinity, for continuing to post this mantra!

Good for you Mama22gs!
I do hope that your son cooperates and is well that day.

In the meantime let's talk about what- if anything- you can do at home to encourage your DS7 to loosen up when the situation calls for it. I guess I'd think of it as afterschooling the social skill or reading a situation and up or down regulating how much care one should put into one answers. Then when the test comes, you'll already have a code word in place to help your son 'trigger' the proper behavior for the occasion.

If you give us some details of where your son tends to get overly perfectionistic, I'll throw out some possible ideas. It's fun to point out in books or movies people who are more or less cautious about saying what they think, ideally you can find some characters who match their responses to the situation. Or you could think about what kind of style different jobs might call for.

Smiles,
Grinity

Thanks, Grinity. That's a very generous offer. Here's one example:

DS7: What does x mean?
Me: What do YOU think it means?
DS7: I'm not sure.
Me: Want to guess?
DS7: I don't want to be wrong.
Me: But you might be right. And if you're not right, that's OK. It's smart to ask or look a word up when you're not sure. Nobody is born knowing what every word means.
DS7: Can I whisper it to you? (even if nobody else is around, he'll frequently say that)
Me: Sure.
DS7 whispers his answer in my ear, which is right much of the time.
If he's not correct, I'll say something like, "I can understand how it would seem like x means y, because it sounds like such-and-such (or whatever)." I'll either tell him then what x means or suggest we look it up in the dictionary.

ETA: If anyone else were around, or if DS were at school, he's very unlikely even to venture a guess unless he's certain about something. He says he can tell me anything, but even with me somehow it's safer to whisper....

We've played a game called Balderdash, and it's pretty fun. That might be good,(or some version using SAT words.) The whole point is that no one in the family knows the real answers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balderdash

Another game we play is '3 wrong things' - it's good for standing in line. We take turns picking a topic and then ask:"What are 3 wrong things to do with a bowling ball?"
The others answer such as - plant flowers in the finger holes, iron my shirts with a bowling ball, or use it to paint with.

There are no 'wrong' answers - ((happy smile)) by definition. You might want to encourage competition for the 'wrongiest' answer, by encouraging everyone to chant "That is SO wrong!"
We had to make a 'no bathroom answers' rule after the first week.

It's also good to tell family stories about embarassing moments the adults have lived through. It helped my son to know that when folks laugh at a mistake you've made, it isn't exactly that they are laughing AT you, it's more that they are releasing tension they carry about how they would be so embarassed to be in your shoes right now. It's sort of an association/causation error to think that the pain comes from being laughed at.

You might want to try a version of charades such as 'Mistake Theatre' where family members act out 'classic' mistakes and the others try to guess which classic mistake the person is thinking of. Maybe brainstorm the clues as a group first and put them on scraps of paper into a hat so that folks don't have the added stress of picking a topic.

Awesome!
Give another one, please.
Smiles,
Grinity

Very cool, Grinity! We'll play "3 Wrong Things" at dinner tonight. Sounds like great fun!

Since you asked, here's another....

DS9 took his NaNoWriMo book to school to show his teacher/classmates.
I asked DS7 if he wanted to show his NaNoWriMo book to his teacher or his class.
He said he wanted to, but he was afraid. What if she/they laughed at him and said it was stupid?

Not so sure this is perfectionism per se. It's the same with almost everything he does, though. He is very afraid that what he's done isn't/won't be good enough, and that people will make fun of him. He doesn't want to invite friends/family members to things like the spelling bee or his sporting events, because he'd be embarassed if he made a mistake/didn't win.

And one other thing. I asked DC last year, if they could have one wish to have some special power or turn into something else, what would it be (e.g., power to fly, a wizard like HP). DS7's answer: I'd be perfect at everything. I told him I was sorry to hear that, because that would mean he'd have THE most boring life ever. To be perfect at everything meant he'd never have the excitement of learning to do something that he couldn't do before. Maybe I was reading too much into it, but it made me sad to hear that would be his wish.

Ask him what interesting things he would do if he was perfect at everything. I don't think it would be boring.

I think of this as 'lack of reference group' a special aspect of perfectionism that only gifted kids have. Pat yourself on the back for setting up some testing for DS7, because it might be that his gifts are way more than anyone has seen, leading you to leave him with a set of 'peers' who aren't very peer-ish.

For my son there was a direct correlation between spending time with 'real peers' and his willingness to take risks. The summer before 8th grade he did an engineering camp, after a super academically challenging year of school, and learned from a peer how to do the Rubix Cube. He was so comfortable in his skin after that then when he started 8th grade in a totally new school, he brought his Cube and showed his new friends what he could do. A teacher-friend told me that one day she turned the corner and saw DS headed down the hall between classes twisting his cube, and a crowd of about 50 kids watching.

This is the same kid who wouldn't join the Robot building team at the High School because 'it's social suicide' and he 'had a reputation to uphold.' Snot! I hate it when he gets like that, but I do see over the years how the better his accomidations are going, the more of his 'geeky' side he lets show.

Leaving aside if that may or may not the case for DS7, I would start pointing out characters in books or movies who are afraid to show their stuff but overcome it and do so and then 'save the day.' I'm only thinking of Rudolf the Rednosed Reindeer at the moment, but maybe we can get some suggestions. Wouldn't Christopher Columbus have been embarassed if he had fallen off the edge of the world?

I would look for the tiniest hint of bravery - in any situation and compliment your son on it. If he is willing to let you post a poem here, do it, and praise his risk taking.
[/quote]
Being the gifted younger brother or a gifted older brother has lots of advantages, but it can also have this 'we try harder' effect. I see it in brothers and cousins, and at least you don't have to worry so much about underachievement. Ask around for family stories of similar pairs.

I'm sure you already try to foster the idea that 'we are a gifted family of high achievers'and make it a game to see who is best at noticing the other's strengths, so I just want to encourage you to keep it up. It will help.

And obviously, try to keep the Adult role models in good order.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

That would have been a better approach at the time. He was having some serious perfectionism issues trying just about anything new at that point, so I was reacting to that.


Thanks for these and the other suggestions, Grinity! I'll keep working at it.

BTW, we played "3 Wrong Things" at dinner tonight. HILLARIOUS! (although it wasn't quite DH's bag). I never knew how many wrong things you could do with a taco or your big brother... It only took us about 5 minutes to have to make a "no potty" rule. Can't imagine how your family lasted a whole week. I guess we really are a family of gifted high achievers.

That's great news. I sort of thought that it would self-extinguish - not!
YipppEE!

Yup. I just reread all this recently. Many argue as little as 3-5 pts between siblings. Research says 75% of siblings will be within 13 points (with tighter ranges less often). Birth order gives a handful of points to the oldest. And then a number of researches will note that kids pick up on the dynamic - so if Sally is so smart then that role is filled I'll paint more, etc. First borns are more achievement focused - statistically - second kids can be overlooked because they don't "apply" their smartiepantsitude in a similar dancing seal trick way. Of course, I am rereading all of this as we wonder if we'll go - pg to hg to gt or drop right off. #3 kid has moments of "wow really" and other moments of "wow really do you know your own name at least" ;-) It is weird because I feel like the pressure on #3 comes down to nature vs nurture since this last one hasn't gotten as much of our time. Sure she is a computer wiz - but I think computers are just intuitive and us adults don't know how to just go with it. I'm comforted by the words of Dr. Sally Reis who at least once pointed out that of all her kids - it was the one who wasn't served who had the people skills and business sense to do insanely well in a non academic way (she also point out with another kid that if you get perfect SATs - graduating from HS isn't a deal breaker ;-).

Do we drop 20 pts off the grid? Time will tell.