I'm not sure what I'm asking, this post may ramble as I put my thoughts down.

GS8 was referred by his teacher for the gifted pullout program. Officially it is called "Extended Total Curriculum". Students must meet Ohio's standard for 'gifted', GS8 met the standard. So, I looked into their program. The website says this: Sounds good, right?

I emailed the teacher before the class started, to get an idea about the class and how she communicates. This is what the teacher said they would be doing beginning in January(last month).

Wow! That sounded like just the thing for GS8!
The first couple weeks he came home with stories about doing problems involving 'bleems'(?) and 'dwarms'(?), and I figured they must have been doing some logic problems. I found a couple on the web from one of those free IQ sites, and he said that's what the problems were. OK, not the same as building planes, but mind challenging at least. And he was a happy camper in his regular classroom.

Then he asked me to be taken out of ETC. They have been doing worksheets of multiplication problems, things he already knows.
Do these things sound like a gifted program curriculum?

He is so unhappy with ETC now. So, I emailed the teacher and asked how things are going in class, and let her know he is not happy.

She emailed back this:

Not a word about their planned activities. And, she has had to "sit on him kind of heavy because of talking, etc" arghhh
I had envisioned this small group of students actively involved in making things, testing their models, measuring their accomplishments, and vocally sharing their excitement. This is obviously not what is happening.

GS8 said if he didn't go to ETC he would have more time to read in his regular classroom; that's something he'd strongly prefer over doing worksheets of problems he already knows. I don't want to pull him out of ETC if they are going to do new stuff, but I don't want him getting a bad attitude waiting on them to really do a gifted program.

I'm meeting the ETC teacher tomorrow. I just can't think of a nice, non-accusatory way to say, "Why aren't you doing the things you said you'd be doing in ETC?"
The little guy is going to talk, he just can't keep quiet. We work on that but I've about come to the conclusion he's going to be a politician or trial lawyer when he grows up.

Hugs OHGrandma

That is almost the same situation we find ourselves in. For eg, our son had pull-out on Valentine's Day. When he came home, he was really frustrated. They spend the entire time looking at ecards online for valentine's day. They were not allowed to send any or touch the computer...

This after he brought home his enrichment folder filled with the same types of logic and math work he was doing for fun at home 3 years ago... Online it says that they are working on building robot models and gathering information about how they work.

I printed out the website information and copied all the papers in his enrichment folder before returning it to the school. I am trying to get a meeting scheduled in the next month. I plan to ask them to explain how worksheets relate to the online course description. I probably won't make any friends though... However, it might be fun to hear them dance around the topic. This will be secondary topic since I'm starting by asking for potential grade/subject skips or online learning opportunities.

I think that in general, the pull-out programs are considered a "reward" by the schools for well behaved students. They are certainly geared for high acheivers and MG in our area. They did not want to put our son in the program since he is not a model student.

Good luck and let us know how the meeting goes. I can use all the ammunition I can get for my meeting

So Weird!
But good that she is willing to met with you 'tommorow!' and at 7pm no less!

I've found that the least offensive way is to 'play dumb' - "so how do these multiplication sheets relate to the airplanes" and keep at it until the person is convincing you of your original point of view.

Our district did away with Gifted pull-outs, or any programing altogether years ago, but I want to remind folks of the LOG in the living room! If every gifted child was right at the 98% or 95% mark, then pull outs would work for almost every child. But not every child is at that particular spot. Dottie's son really enjoys his pull-out, but that's because he is with kids several years older than he is. My son enjoys Saturday and Summer Gifted programs - as long as he's on the younger end of the multi-age group. At first I blamed the programs as being 'watered down' but as the test results rolled in, I realized - ok, he just needs something more than that.

There are a lot of reasons kids want to switch out of pull-outs: being teased, missing partys, missing reading time. If you can't work it out with the teacher, let him use his judgement. I think that she is going to be receptive to differentiating or moving him up.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

I'm also wondering what 'etc' of 'talking, etc' is about. I'd guess it's some disrespect or lack of cooperation.
His regular teacher understands him, she knows not to get into negotiations with him. If you waver, you lose. You must be very clear about who is the adult in the relationship, but still treat him with respect. He's very cooperative then.

His classes are scheduled so he only misses free reading time in his regular class. His peers in the gifted class are 4 girls & 1 boy. He's reached the 'cootie' stage about girls, so they're not fun. And a few months ago I asked him to not hang around with the other boy after the boy stuck a carrot in his nose, another in his ear, then ate them during lunch, ewww. I've since told GS that he could play with the boy, but don't copy those kinds of things.

I am happy the gifted teacher suggested meeting on Tuesday but the reality is I contacted her last week to see how things were going from her perspective. Tuesday & Thursday of this week are regular conference nights, so I would expect her to be available. I'm a bit disappointed she hadn't contacted me first about any issues she's having with GS in class.

Well, I'm not altogether happy with how the meeting went, but it could have been worse. The plans to build the planes was scratched due to the cost of the planes.

Turns out GS8 wanted out of the class last week mainly due to the teacher being out and a sub in her place. They did worksheets that were just busywork. He is happy again this week with the class. They are working with different bases in math.

GS8 is testing who is the boss in the class, that's the root of the behavior issues. I let the teacher know that is who he is. I also let her know that GS knows I will listen to him, but I also support the teacher's authority. This approach has worked in the past to get cooperation from GS, and support from the teacher.

The other boy in the class is apparently 2E. The teacher has to read the questions to him, and write his answers. When GS told me the teacher helped the other boy, his opinion was the teacher worked with him but didn't help anyone else in the class. The teacher saw it as GS liking to be the center of attention, and being offended the other child got so much attention. I see it as an opportunity to teach GS that we all have different needs.

The part that didn't go as well as I would have liked was when I was feeling around to see if the teacher had a feeling for GS LOG. She really doesn't know him well enough, and he hasn't been pushed enough to get an idea of his abilities in the gifted class. She was enthusiastic about the math program in the regular classroom because it taught ideas and didn't dwell on rote memorization. She also thought the program was great the way it reviewed past lessons. When I expressed concern that GS8 can already do what he will be taught next year, it seemed to fly right over her head. She just repeated how great the program was about reviewing. So, I just repeated a bit more emphatically, "but he already knows it and I'm worried he's going to start getting disruptive(more than he already can be!)". She did say if GS gets bored to let them know and they'd see what could be done.

Another thing, the teacher made several comments about '4th grade', and I had to remind her GS was only in 3rd grade. I'm not sure what to think about that, maybe she just had a long day.

I've got a meeting with GS's regular teacher on Thursday. I think I'll get better feedback about GS's abilities from her.

I have received the exact same attitude about our school's math program (Everyday Math???) That is covers multiple topics a day with a built in review. This is driving my son up the walls. He is also in third grade. The school is fighting doing anything except the pull-out since he is NOT a model student. He also likes to test the teachers both as to their knowledge and what they will let him get away with in the classroom. It is amazing how much better behaved he is and how much improved his concentration is when he is actually challenged at the correct level. It is like we have a completely different child, almost no mood swings, and shining eyes. Unfortunately, it happens all too seldom and rarely in the classroom.

His school district does not appear to have any concept of LOGs. Not that I'm sure what DS's LOG is . He is 2E with 4-5 standard deviations between his reasoning and processing subsets. His reasoning skills cluster in the upper range, his processing and organization cluster in the lower range. However, full scale scores put him in the high average to MG range so that is what the school looks at for placement.

It is funny how our children either perceive or present information to us. Your GS didn't think to mention they had a substitute or that the other child need more hands on time from the teacher lol. Good for you to be able to make it a positive discussion with him. Good luck with the teacher conference

In our school district, to get admission to a gifted full time program one has to score 80% or higher on the standardized test. To me a gifted program like that is not really a gifted program. Though I have never experienced it from the inside.

Wow Ania. Our cutoff is 92% and I thought that was liberal. I wonder what percentage of the population that equates to in your district?

Ohio has a policy of 95% on a nationally normed test. Our school uses the ITBS. There are 5 kids in his class(I thought he said 2 boys & 4 female students, but he was counting the teacher), and there are 72-75 3rd graders in his school. So that's about 5.5%.

What I'm wondering is, is it fair to use an achievement test to identify gifted students? We use math on the farm more than what I suspect an average urban family would, and I've involved him in cooking so he knows fractions. But what about the gifted kid who hasn't been exposed to those things? That's just a side thing for me.

Our district pullout gifted program is 3 hrs/week. Each teacher administers the program differently, but mostly it's enrichment rather than acceleration. They participate in competitions like Continental Math or Knowledge Bowl and essay contests. They do the Stock Market Game, quiz bowl, chess tournament, theater per formances, research topics for papers, field trips and guest speakers (museum outreach programs). There is an elementary school with a large population of gifted students (so that they have 2 full-time gifted teachers--maybe 50 kids?--doing the pull-out program). Everyone loves that.

BUT it's like a "club" there--seems elitist. An older friend of mine asked, "wouldn't every child enjoy and benefit from participating in those activites?" I agree. My kids don't participate in the pull-out because they're in the self-contained class. They participate in some of the activities of the pull-out that are for the entire district gifted students, but mostly it's in class accelerated material.

Another teacher who I always thought was mediocre who administers the pull out program at our school I now realize focusses on accelerated subject material rather than all the enrichment--guess she's actually better in my mind.

Cym -
I totally agree with you about the 'club' kind of pull out program. They are really hard to 'defend' and I'm not sure I would. It's ok for pull outs to be fun, but only if it involves enough above level hard work that the other kids couldn't keep up, and would have no desire to.

It's the schools who are so sure that each child develops a readiness for various activities along somekind of timetable. If there is such a thing as Normal Development, than can't there be a pull out gifted program for children who are on an alternative development path?

((shrug))
Grinity

OHGM,
Well it sounds like the meeting was scary, in a way that the teacher didn't really seem to be 'on target.' It is good that the problems were temporary, and Bases sees like a good subject. My son is just as you discribe with the testing, questioning athority. He has improved with age, and he has no particular reason to be this way - just needs really really clear boundries. Daycare teachers were requesting that I work with him to get him to request less of her attention from age 2. I didn't know that a 2 year old could "walk all over" a 22 year old, but apparently he was doing so. I sure don't know how to quickly train a 2 year old to want less attention. I thought I was going to go crazy repeating, "Not right now, in a minute." Actually I think that if he had been with older kids who he could actually talk to, he would have been less interested in the teachers. Anyway - the teacher probably was exhausted, and now at least you have some insight about the other boy, and the door is open to having her help about the Math - if he happens to become bored!

Big Smiles,
Grinity

Hoagies has a great article on the harm of a GT pull-out program that doesn't cut the mustard. For anyone who hasn't seen it:

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/harm.htm

I think the analogy between GTness and lefthandedness is genius!

K-

Wow Kriston! Great Article. When I came to the part about "Leftie" identification, I didn't know if I was ROTFL or ROTFC (Crying- Thanks Dottie!)

Grinity

Yes, it's so dead-on, it's almost scary! It should be a mandatory read for all school adminstrators and GT coordinators! Very effective!

I read the article last night, thanks for the link. I've been contemplating how it applies to GS8. I've been so focused on teaching GS appropriate coping skills that I've been slow to switch gears and think that maybe it's time to switch his environment.
Now that his reaction to frustrations is not so 'over the top', and he's got a teacher who has responded by giving him a lot more freedom to do projects of his own when he's completed the class assigned work; he's really making a lot of progress with academic achievement. He's enjoying our 'afterschool' activities with the Singapore math book.

I've casually asked his thoughts about skipping grades. He is dead set against something like that, at least those are his thoughts now. My conference with his regular teacher is postponed until next week due to bad weather.

The fact that his academic achievement seems to be accelerating exponetially has me looking at next year as the year that will be more critical in the path we choose. If he levels off at just 2-3 grade levels above his age, then a pull-out gifted program will most likely be adequate along with his extracurricular activities & afterschooling. I'm still wondering how he'll react next year when he's handed a page of multiplication and division problems for math at school, when he's working on algebra at home. Right now he likes the attention he gets in class for kicking butt on the timed tests and being allowed to read or work Sudoku puzzles.

In many ways, he's still very much 8 years old. I'm working from home today and he has a snow day. He did some 'aferschooling' and now he's playing with his favorite monster truck 'grave digger' and driving over all his cars. Hmmm, watching the commercials, maybe that's more a guy thing, and not just an 8 year old guy thing, hahaha.