Hi -

I enjoy reading these boards and I feel a little guilty about my repetitive posts, but I'm getting anxious over my 4th grader's math placement and looking for more feedback and advice. It's starting to look like we are going to have a problem and I am REALLY bad at dealing with these types of things - I can win an argument, but negotiating concessions is outside my skillset.

I've posted info previously, but here's the background: New school, new school system, so-so repuation, son is supposed to be in Talent Development program for both reading and math, school classification for him is 99% in math, 98% in reading (his reading is actually REALLY good, but the WIAT score was depressed becasue it included phonetics and he can't sound out, spelling stinks too, but his speed and comprehension are great), other scores include DYS level GAI from WISC, 139 SB V, overall very solid math, excellent reading, weak writing.

I've had two meetings at the school jsut trying to get basic info/lay of the land - one with his homeroom teacher and one with his math/reading teacher and the gifted coordinator. At the math/reading meeting I mentioned that my son had worked through the fourth AND much of the fifth grade curriculum and asked what would happen if he was beyond the curriculum. The teacher said she would assess each child and make sure they were challenged. I got the impression that they didn't like my question and I thought the response was vague. The gifted coordinator does chess and math olympiad problems with them on Mondays instead of their regular math class. I initially thought that sounded great, but that was before I realized the size of the class.

For no good reason I ASSumed the talent development classes would be small groups. They are not. They have three 4th grade classes, so for math and reading they divide the kids into three ability groupings and each teacher takes one group. All the groups follow the same fourth grade basic currriculum, with some undefined extras in the higher grouping. So my son is in the highest ability grouping, but so is over 1/3 of the fourth grade. On mondays the gifted coordinator does chess and Math Olympiad problems with them (instead of their regular one hour math class), but it's +/-25 kids with varying abilities and it's not like she's a chessmaster. I asked my son how many kids are in the class and he said, "Well, two more than the number of desks because me and one other kid have to sit on the floor."

I am pretty sure my son knows all the fourth grade math and most of the fifth, as I prepped him extensively in the spring trying to get him into a different program and he had a tutor all summer. Also, he's coming out of a better school. And at both my meetings at the school it was mentioned that a lot of the kids don't know the basic muliplication facts. This school has bright kids, but it's not Palo Alto or Scarsdale.

The math/reading teacher made a favorable impression on me, but I simply don't believe than ANY teacher can effectively teach math to a child who is two years above grade level if she is also teaching 25 kids at grade level. I suspect the other kids are all at or only slightly above grade level since most have been at the school for years and the school doesn't offer any math acceleration.

Making me more anxious is the fact that my other son is a 3rd grader at a charter school for gifted children where they are learning the 4th grade NC curriculum. Hopefully both kids will be at this school next year and I don't want my older son to be a year behind. So, in short, I want my son in the 5th grade math class and I don't know how to ask.


Is this reasonable in general? IOW, do they have a legal obligation to give my child *some* education in math (currently I suspect that w/o supplementation at home he will actually regress this year) and, if so, how to I go about getting it?

Is this reasonable in NC? Does anyone have any experience specific to NC they could share?

Unfortunately, with the boys at different school with different schedules, my job, and piano I simply can't teach my son a complete year of math at home. I want the school to provide SOMETHING for him in this area. Any advice (even if it's critical) is appreciated.

Mmm. How did they determine that your DS is 99th percentile for maths, and how does the teacher plan to assess in order to check that he's challenged? E.g., do they already have, or will they soon have, evidence they believe that he already knows the 4th grade curriculum? If not, an obvious first step is to ask that they assess him at that level. If they do, then surely they must be prepared to teach them 5th grade material.

I think I wouldn't knock the large class math olympiad and chess class - I could easily believe that would be more beneficial for your son than a standard 5th grade class, especially if he already knows most of the 5th grade material too. He will probably benefit more from being given problems than from being fed solutions, so provided it isn't just that the teacher stands at the front and explains how to do each question until everyone in the class understands it, should be good! I'd focus attention on the other classes, where he isn't likely to learn anything. Perhaps they could give an end-of-4th grade assessment to the whole of the top group, and then let those who do well on it be a subgroup?

How is he at self-directed learning? Would he go for being allowed to work on Olympiad problems on his own, or maybe in collaboration/competition with any other children who also don't need 4th grade maths, during the other maths classes? I would tend to think that being ready for next year at a school where maths is one year ahead of age isn't likely to be an issue if he's most of the way through 5th grade maths already; surely he could do anything missing over next summer, if need be. Seems to me that what you need is a plan to get his school time be spent on something valuable, regardless of what material it covers.

Hi Colins Mum, thank you. Yes, I agree the Math Olympiad and chess are a positive. I am disappointed by the size of the group, but they are still great activities.

So for the other math classes, your suggested first step would be to ask that he be assessed? The 99% is from WIAT achievement testing that was done before we did math supplementation (one on one for several months). I can understand the school wanting to do their own testing, but I am not sure how to ask for the assessment. Seems that they would come back with "Why? We are going to assess and challenge him in class on an ongoing basis."

Not sure about self-directed learning. He's capable of learning independently, but someone whould have to hand him the work and tell him what pages to look at. He read the Life of Fred book independnetly, but he's not going to work through a math text book w/o some direction. I could do that, though. I could parse out the work if the school would let him have a quiet place to work.

I think that's an answer to be welcomed - because if it's true, all your worries are over! Of course, that's only if they are going to keep assessing until they reach a level where they can tell that each child will be challenged, so my response would be something like "That's great. My guess is that my child will assess around 2/3 (or whatever) of the way through 5th grade maths. Can you confirm that you'll test that far if my child is successful at earlier assessments, and give me some idea of what you'll do in that case?"

Sounds promising. FWIW we're trying something similar with my DS6. So far (4 days in!), the main problem is that he has no skills to get himself unstuck or go on, when he reaches something he doesn't know how to do. So at that point, he just stops, and stares at the question he can't do until told it's time for a different subject. Argh :-) Yours is a bit older though, and even with mine, I'm hoping he can be induced to learn not to do that!

I was in your shoes before. I tried every year to work with the teachers and every year, felt like I was promised that they understood and were aware for the need for more, yet I never saw the curriculum differentiation to the level that we needed it to be. Don't get me wrong, it was an improvement, but it wasn't enough. After 3 years of unsuccessfully getting our child's needs met through the teacher contact directly, we scheduled a meeting with the prinicipal and said "we'd like X, Y, and Z for our child and here is why..." We presented a portfolio with report cards, test scores (though they have all those, it's easier for them to look at right then and there to validate our point) and work and accomplishments outside of school, awards, classes we've taken for enrichment etc.) We had a plan layed out that was all research backed and said "this is what we'd like to see happen for our child" and it payed off! We got exactly what we hoped for. Sometimes I think going in with a plan (like, I'd like my son to be subject accelerated to 5th grade math because he's capable of doing X, Y, Z and be willing to do above level testing to show he's capable if need be.) Explain that it can even be done on a trial basis and if it doesn't work out in his best interest, there is no harm done in going back (though when you make an informed decision about it, you are usually pretty confident it will be fine) but this gives the school a sense that they don't need to make a decision that is permanent if it doesn't work out. Hold your breath, go in with your head held high and remember you are your child's best sdvocate. No one likes to do it, but we do, and you will be relieved if you are able to make a difference. Even if it doesn't pan out, at least you know you tried!!!!

bh14 put it nicely and I would also be upfront about him needing acceleration to be on track for the charter school. If they understand this is not long term and he'll be paying the price if he's under-prepared, you may have better luck. Unfortunately I don't think there are any laws that will help your case but a solid plan and advocacy can go far. Good luck!

Thank you, everyone for the replies. They are very helpful.


ColinsMum, I anticipate a similar problem if this is what we end up doing with our son. What I will probably do to entice him to work through the problems is tell him, "OK, if you can't figure out these, just move on to your long division worksheet. Finish one or the other - your choice." I think the prospect of a page full of long division will motivate him to spend a few minutes contemplating an algebra problem! Of course, I will need to make sure that the more advanced problems are do-able and give him a little wiggle room to do them partially.

Bh14, Inky, if I am following you it seems that you are both suggesting I be pretty up front and just ask for the 5th grade placement outright. I think I've been hesitant to broach this because I feel like on some level it's insulting to the teacher. As though I am suggesting that it's obvious she can't challenge him, even though she's said she is going to. OTOH, he's been in school FOUR WEEKS and has yet to see a math problem beyond single digit muliplication (with the exception of the Math Olympiad problems, but that is done outside of the math curriculum).

Inky, if you get a chance can you elaborate on your reason for suggesting I be up front about the charter school? I'm little hesitant to do that. ALthough it might alleviate concerns about what will happen after he finishes 5th grade math ( the school only goes through 5th grade).

Yesterday afternoon my son told me that they were given a math test instead of having math class. I had seen something about testing this week, but when it didn't happen Monday I figured it was only for the kids who weren't already placed. The test was over an hour long and my son said the problems were like the ones I made him do over the weekend (I had him review the 4th grade end of year exam since he hasn't done any math work in a month). So he should have done very well, and if he didn't then maybe I have assessed him incorrectly. I anticipate getting the results on Tuesday when the weekly folder comes home. So at this point I am planning on waiting for that information and checking the work he brings home between now and then. I also need to try and find out if the fifth graders even do math at the same time. If they don't there could be all kinds of legitimate objections on logistical grounds.

Inky, I think you meant your reply for the orig. poster. JaneSmith, I think that if you broach the subject early enough, so that they aren't too far into the curriculum they would have an easier time going for it. Any way you can show them where he was at the prvious charter school so that you can "have him on track where he was at the charter school, as inky suggested?

By not coming right out and saying what your hopes are for him, I can tell you that I took that approach and started to get the sense that the teachers felt as though what they were doing was always enough, that the teacher's down the road who weren't doing what they were doing were the ones you'd have to worry about. As time goes on, it just gets pushed off each year. I got to the point of going in to ask for the full skip because DC was complaining that the work was for babies and that a two year old could do it and started feeling really insulted that they wouldn't give her anything harder and she was really struggling with the lack of challenge. Sometimes it takes hitting a wall like that to make you say... enough.... I've waited long enough and now you HAVE to do something! Don't let the time scheduling throw you. Try to think of solutions to the problems you forsee them creating as barriers. For examle, maybe suggest he be given the 5th grade math book to work from that he can do while his class is having their math lesson, or maybe during a study hall or something. my dc had to do that at the end of the year after the grade skip was approved, just so she wasn't tortured with the grade level material. there are ways around things. By anticipating what barriers you see them coming up with and having a solution, it is pretty much like making it a no brainer for them and they are more willing to see things from another angle. Not always, but it helps.

Also, as for laws that might help your case, there are some, depending on your state. While DC was in a private school and was exempt from having to follow those acceleration laws, I used them to my advantage and presented them and it certainly helped prove my point. Check out your state acceleration policies and you might find useful info.

this site may help

http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/

on the left side, click on state policy and it will allow you to search policies by state from a map of the US (that's assuming you are in US .)

Just wanted to say that it wasn't until we directly stated that we wanted a 2 year subject acceleration for DS in math that anyone paid attention. We did it in a formal letter to the Principal that included the reasons why (SCAT and test scores, a couple samples of what he could do) and it was at that point that they finally agreed to assess DS (not just on the age appropriate material). That was what got the ball rolling for us and the 2 year math acceleration is happening now.

Good luck, Cat

That's Great Catalana! Same here... nothing til our meeting with princ. saying what we wanted and we are now 3 weeks into the school yr. with the newly skipped grade and all is going well!

Love to hear the successes of hard work paying off! Great job!

Yes, my previous response was directed to JaneSmith. I can understand your hesitancy because the teacher may feel insulted and I've been in a similar predicament. I've also seen both sides with my children where the oldest did in class differentiation, I sent in a more challenging workbook, and then did math afterschooling until she entered a gifted magnet program this year.

She's in 3rd grade and they've started off with a 4th grade math book like the NC charter school. If I hadn't kept her challenged she would have had a large discrepancy between her math and reading skills. She would have still been accepted based on her reading scores but she'd be having a much tougher transition right now with the math.

With my youngest I was more prepared, had her privately tested and met with the principal in the spring before K. I asked for subject acceleration for reading and math which she did by joining the 1st grade class part time. Everything went well and she really thrived last year. At the spring conference the 1st grade teacher recommended having her do in class differentiation instead of another year of subject acceleration.

I was torn about going against the teacher's recommendation but didn't want to be in that position again where, even though the teacher has good intentions, it's just not enough. I put it in writing that we wanted to continue with subject acceleration again this year and it's been going beautifully.

I would say something like "his younger brother is attending a charter school and it is working well in meeting his needs for accelerated work. In 3rd grade his brother is doing 4th grade work. We think it would also be a good fit for DS but are concerned he won't be prepared without subject acceleration this year. I would hate to see him repeating work he's already mastered this year and falling behind the students at the charter school. Subject acceleration to 5th grade math would help him keep pace and be prepared."

Keep in mind my state doesn't even allow charter schools so I don't know the politics and whether there'd be a backlash so I understand your hesitancy. Maybe someone else can help massage a better approach.

Inky, that is exactly how I feel. I am sure her intentions are good, but what I've seen so far is so inadequate that even ramping it up significantly won't make it enough. Frankly, the fifth grade curriculum probably won't be enough either, but it will have *some* new stuff and we can address deficits next summer.

I really appreciate all the responses. I feel better prepared to address this now. I realize now that I need to be upfront about asking for the fifth grade placement. I can't expect them to think of it. The only think I am unsure of now is if I whould wait until Tuesday (when I may have test results) or just send an email today or tomorrow. I already have a pretty good idea of what the test results will be. But maybe I should wait until the school sees them.

If it's just a few days I'd probably hold off until I had the results. We justified our reasoning for wanting another year of subject acceleration using her spring test results which were at the 99% for the higher grade. That made it less about the teacher and more about proper placement for her readiness level.

"I can't expect them to think of it."

Exactly. Until I saw the look of surprise on the principal's face (as though we had asked them to send him to Mars on a rocket), I didn't realize that subject acceleration just didn't register! Which is of course kind of sad, because it is such an easy and inexpensive way to address this sort of thing.

Cat