We were watching something today that stated someone's IQ and it started DS10 asking questions. First, he wanted to know if the IQ on the show was "a good one" . Then he started asking about his IQ. In trying to be evasive and answering questions with questions, I now know that he's figured out that he's been tested and when. Not that it was any big secret or anything, but at the time we just explained that the tests would help us determine how to make school better for him and didn't go into detail about them being IQ/achievement tests.

I'm hoping that my "I'm not sure off the top of my head, I'd have to look it up" reply will buy some time so maybe he'll forget about it, however, I suspect it'll come up again at some point.

So, I'm curious about how others have handled it when the DC want to know what the actual number is...

I still remember when my parents told me - they also told me my sisters. Not a good memory.

My parents always refused to tell me, and I think that was a good move. He might choose to use it for comparison against other kids, which simply cannot go well no matter what.

Hm. For me, learning my IQ was a very positive thing. I was a bit older than your son, but I really wished I'd known it sooner. If my parents had known it before me and kept it from me, I imagine I'd have been pretty angry about that.

What negative consequences do you expect as a result of having that conversation?

My parents told me -- I don't remember how -- but they must have been pretty low key about it (I'm making this up but I can imagine what my dad would have said: "You scored X. That means you're very smart. But what's important is that you be a good person, always do your best, and learn more than is required of you" -- so, de-emphasizing the meaning of the test, and emphasizing what he thought was important.)

It was a non-issue for me growing up; IQ scores just never came up in conversation... that is, until I was in college and my boy friend shared his IQ, which was in the gifted range, but, uh, not close to mine. I didn't say anything about it to him, but I found it both obnoxious and a little sad (not his score, but that he should brag about it so).

Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean here, but IQs are comparisons with other kids. For me, understanding that I had a higher IQ than most (if not all) of the other kids I knew meant understanding that they weren't lazy or stupid, that there wasn't something wrong with me OR them, and that it wasn't my imagination (or my fault) that my school situation was devastatingly lacking in challenge. I did have conversations with other kids who told me their IQs, but I never felt compelled to share my own (and I didn't do so at all as a child).

Wow, such varying experiences. Thanks for sharing.
Of course, this is a consideration. However, other children would have to know their own before comparisons could really be made and shoot, had it not been at the school's initiation we probably still wouldn't know . That being said, I do have a concern that kids will be kids and mine is no different in that it could come out amongst friends and I agree with you that it wouldn't go well.

You know, I also wonder if it could be a positive thing for DS to know. Sorta like if he knows what a gift he has, might he be more encouraged to use it - ie. putting forth more effort, acknowledging/discovering/realizing his true capabilities, etc. Of course, then there's always the pendulum swinging the other way... Part of me feels that it's something about and part of *him* so why wouldn't I tell him??


This is how I would picture the conversation going. I've used something I saw here (can't recall who said it, but Thanks!) with DS "It's nice to be smart, but it's smart to be nice!"

I'm really hoping he'll forget about wanting to know and then it's a non-issue.

This is a good question!

My DS knows that he is profoundly gifted because of all the educational issues we've encountered, but we have not let him see his actual scores. Of course, he just turned 6, but I don't foresee sharing them anytime in the foreseeable future.

My parents never told me. When my husband disclosed his one day and I called my mom, I was shocked. I was well aware that I was intelligent, but had no idea where I was in the gifted spectrum. (I just assumed gifted was gifted.) I completely understand why there was no need to share it with me as a child, though.

I guess my opinion is that IQ is nobody's business (like a woman's weight!), and except for assisting our children's educational needs, it usually only leads to judgment and division. Nearly everyone the child encounters will have a number higher or lower. The ones who are higher will assume your child is less smart than them, and the ones who are lower might be competitive/jealous/etc. I'm not sure the numbers have a good use in a child's hands.

After reading many testing posts here, I also see that the numbers can sometimes be off. Perhaps the child had a bad testing day or some other variable occurred, and the numbers are really higher. I also wouldn't want my preteen/teen googling the stereotypes about various gifted levels and worrying about some of the more troublesome aspects that are often listed, particularly at the higher levels.

It's such an interesting question, though. I haven't pondered it before, but there are great thoughts pro and con.

My parents told me. I actually dont remember when, but it was never made a big deal. Although I am glad I know. I think it helped me understand me better and why things in some social situations and in some aspects of schol were always such a struggle. Never like oh I am better then them, but more of in a ...okay, this explains it sort of way. I am pretty sure when DD is older and asks I will tell her, but there will always be more of an importance on working hard and doing your best try in what ever you do as there was at my house growing up. Good luck with your decision.

I agree with not telling. My mom told me both mine and my brother's when we were in highschool. I think she thought she would make me feel better because my number was pretty good. It really bothered me even though I always knew he was smarter than me. We had an 11 point difference but that put me in the moderately gifted and him in the highly gifted categories so performances were noticeably different.

Both our parents have passed on so I told my brother his number and he was surprised his was that high. Good-luck whatever you decide.

We shared D15's with her this year (actually, it is multiple numbers, since she has been tested 3 times with 3 sometimes widely varying results!). Which was then a good opening to talk about how it is just one indicator on one day on one test. So far it has not caused any problems. I think it actually gave her a self confidence boost that was needed, because she also had a learning disability diagnosed this year. I have no regrets about sharing it, but in our case age 15 was a good age to do it. She was mature enough to handle it. I would not have shared her sister's (D20) with D15 even if I knew it (D20 has never been tested).

I would not tell at that age, primarily because you can't take it back and I can see a lot more potential downside than potential upside.

Also (as has already been mentioned) it's not a perfect measure of anything except how someone performed on one particular test on one particular day. This has value, but I don't think a child should form their view of themselves around it.

I do think it's important to let a child know if they are very intelligent. I imagine that typically this will be mostly confirming the child's own observations, but not always. I also think it's important, at an older age, to discuss the implications of a very high I.Q. vs. a more 'typical' gifted I.Q.

Another issue is that even if the child is a consistent scorer with no particlular weaknessses, a measure of their ability vs. "the world" might not be an accurate gauge of their ability vs. their immediate peers. Which could give a child a very highly inflated sense of their abilities relative to their friends and classmates. My I.Q. was measured once at 142, which would correspond to the 99+ percentile. But in my mediocre HS senior class of about 120, at least 2 other people had SAT scores as high or higher (old SAT).

Kids are going to start to see other test results and will form a picture over time. I know the PSAT and SAT aren't as correlated with intelligence as they used to be, but there's still a correlation and kids (meaning OTHER kids) will start getting the picture in HS, if not earlier. And there will probably be other standardized tests along the way. I think the parents' role is to make sure that picture is accurate and to help the child understand the implications of that picture. But I don't think parents should provide a difficult to interpret number prematurely. I wouldn't trust a 10 year-old not the throw the number out to his/her friends. And that's likely to cause confusion and resentment.

I knew mine when I was younger than your DS. It didn't affect me one way or the other. I always knew I was brighter than the average kid, but in the city I was in (at the time), there were a handful of us that grew up "through the system" together.

We've opted to tell our DDs that they are very smart and that they are particularly good in math (since even in a gifted program there is a "boys are better than girls" bias about math). We haven't given actual numbers because I think that they are too young (8 & 10). I know that DD10 would get hung up on the numbers just based on her personality. I also am concerned about unhealthy comparisons with some of her hyper-competitive classmates.

For me, I never had an IQ test but I do recall getting my Iowa test results in 4th grade (9 years old). Across the board, I tested as "12th grade, 9th month." No one sat down and explained them to me. I just assumed that something was wrong with the test. I had older siblings who were in high school and I knew that I didn't know what they knew. When I tried to joke about it with my other friends, i.e. what a stupid test - I got stunned silence. It was a miserable experience.

If you do tell your DS, I would counsel him not to discuss it with his friends. You might want to do some role playing to demonstrate how most conversations about IQ with his friends are not likely to have good outcomes.

I wish my parents knew mine! My father didn't care as he was from the working class and you worked with your hands, not with your head (so much). My mom was just plain scared of me.

I don't really know whether i would have benefitted from knowing. I now know that I also suffer from ADD which i didn't discover until i was 48. I think that would have been more important to know. I really felt i was lazy or something for not concentrating more. The IQ thing probably would have given me some respect for my abilities; what i really needed was some guidance as to what I could do with that potential.

The point is that i don't think knowing or not is damaging in itself. What is important is that you as a parent use that information to guide and help direct your child in ways that they understand their potential and understand HOW they learn best.

This is so true, even for me.

As for us, I have not told DS6 his, and I don't plan on unless he asks. We focus on the fact that there's a reason he's been grade skipped and what that means for him and the people around him. He's extremely sensitive to people's feelings, so he has yet to use the "I'm smarter than you are" line, and we encourage him not to. I think having him in sports, where he's not #1 has helped him to realize (and his perfectionism) that people are better at some things than others... his just happens to be academics.

If he doesn't know that he's gifted (GT, HG, PG...) and he has noticed his differences, it may help to share that with him (with a caution against telling other kids--"it's a private thing"...). It may help him understand himself if you share it with him and discuss how it affects how he learns and understands the world around him...

*Horror Study Disclaimer*
On a personal note, I grew up not knowing that I was gifted or how gifted I was, and, when I compared myself to everyone else in my class and to my siblings and cousins, I concluded that I was stupid or that I was some sort of abomination (teachers had a hand in that one). I proceeded to try everything possible to make myself "normal," starting at around 10. No one told me about my giftedness (parents or counselors) until I had gone through drug treatment several times as a teenager. There was a lot of anger directed at those who had kept the information from me after I was told and had read about profound giftedness.

Just wanted to chime in here. This is a really good question/discussion.

I suppose for us, we wouldn't need to tell DC definitely until much later and only if there was a reason to.

DC already knows there is a difference, that can't be helped.

I consider that later, it is useful for DC to know that there is a difference, that the other kids can't help being who they are, and that is just how things are. I like what some of the others have said about not stressing on the test because it really is just one number, one test, one day. More important is who the child is, as a person, with a gift, but to do their best, and be understanding of all people.

Also, that because of the difference, there is nothing wrong with DC. "You are normal amongst kids in this range."

I think, I would never actually say the number, because it is misleading. However, I will tell DC about the giftedness, the intensities especially, and understanding one's own perfectionism issues.

I'm not sure how useful this is - but I think it's really important for us parents to know what IQ is before we talk to our kids about it.

IQ is on an ordinal scale, that means that a person with a 150 IQ isn't 'twice as smart' as a person with an IQ of 75. IQ only refers to the frequency of occurance in an average population.

How many of us send our children to schools with average populations? Very few, I would suspect. It's hard to even know what the school population is like, although economics and SAT scores can be made to stand in for estimates.

And just because it might be predicted that there are 2 other kids in your grade that have similar IQs doesn't prevent there from being 5 other kids in your grade or no other kids in your grade. What effect does school choice or homeschooling have on the school population?

Then there is the whole question of FSIQ being an average, and not a terribly useful average for many kids.

I'm also interested if there really is a difference between overall giftedness and early development. I know Ruf is firmly in the early development = giftedness camp, but for every late bloomer that we know as individuals, there is some kid who's IQ score is going to drop a bit, and look more normal when they are compared to that late bloomer. Statistically that just has to happen to some extent. Of course I just move my mental cutoffs downward a bit as the child grow us to compensate, but is there truly such a thing as an 'early bloomer?'

My favorite thing anyone ever told me about my IQ is: High enough that you can learn to do kind of job that interests you.

I would perhaps add to that pile of possible information that a child might be 'high enough' that they feel like they don't belong even in some groups that are specifically designed to meet the needs of gifted kids.

Or 'high enough' that they feel all 'uneven' inside because almost no one is equally advanced in ever single area, so that learning to be kind and patient with themselves and others is very important.

And of course, 'high enough' that we have to give you harder school work so that you have a change to develop your character in ways that lead to success in life, because no one gets to 'coast on their smarts.'

'High enough' that you are going to be much happier if you can figure out your work life to give you chances to solve interesting problems and met interesting people, who get your jokes.

Thanks for giving me this opportunity to think aloud.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

"who gets your jokes"

LOL. Thanks Grinity!

We will probably get an IQ test for our 7yo son this summer, administered privately (few MA schools have gifted programs). An IQ test takes a few hours, right? We will have to travel some distance to have him tested. After all that, he will certainly be very curious about his score afterward (I understand that scoring the test and writing up the results may take weeks), and I think he has a right to know what it is.
Furthermore, part of the reason to have him tested is have him join Davidson Young Scholars. If he qualifies, he will be able to look up on the web that his score exceeds 145. What is the point of suppressing the actual score?

Well, I can see reasons not to be specific at that age. Gifted kids are not necessarily emotionally mature, and I could see a kid taunting someone else (a sibling or someone at school) by bragging about their score. Also, you son's score may change. My kid's score range is about 35 points over various IQ tests over the year (lower scores as she was older, mostly I believe due to using differen tests). But I think it would have been quite jarring for her to think her IQ was one number, then get another signficantly different number later on.

One other reason we decided to share with D15 this year is because (story told on another thread) her score (highest one, in fact) was leaked by a teacher to various members of her K-12 school community several years ago (including parents and teachers who had no need to know). She didn't know at the time, but it actually came up in a conversation with someone this year, and she asked me. It didn't seem fair that other people around her should know (besides us as parents, I think that is okay while they are younger), and she didn't.

All this said, I do think it is important to talk to our kids about the fact that they are gifted. I think they need to know in order to understand why they are different from their peers (they will surely figure out that they ARE different, and as a poster said above, they might not interpret this positively!). Also, I think it helps increase their expectations from themselves, which is mostly a good thing. I didn't really figure it out (nor did the school guidance counselor, could have knocked him over with a feather!) until I had the highest SAT scores in my county, and also an ACT score in the top 150 in my state.

Perhaps if he's wanting more information, instead of giving him a specific score, you could say something like, "Well, all the testing that you have done over the years is indicating that you seem to be in the profoundly gifted/exceptionally gifted/highly gifted/gifted range. What this means is . . . . Of course, these scores don't say everything about who you are as a person, and can't be used to say who is better than someone else. Everyone has a talent in one thing or another and these tests just indicate that you are a great learner."

At some point, I think in middle school, I did find out my IQ number because they were restructuring the gifted program and making a hard 130 cutoff, so all of us already in the program had to retest. Several of my friends were not allowed to remain in the program when I was, so that is how it came up. I did find it comforting, really, to know the number because I then always knew, if nothing else, that I was smart enough to do anything I put my mind to. But still, I'm not sure that I would tell my kids "their number" until they were older and had some good reason to need to know.

Talent search programs such as Johns Hopkins CTY use standardized tests such as the SAT or SCAT effectively as group-administered IQ tests. There are online conversion calculators between the the SAT and an IQ score. People don't suppress SCAT or SAT scores from kids, and I don't see why an IQ should be different.

Bostonian, I don't see you addressing any of the reasons other posters have mentioned on this thread regarding why it might not be best to share that info, at least while the kids are younger.

Regarding the SAT and other tests used by CTY, that is somewhat self-selecting. The only kids they have to compare to are other kids who took the tests are part of the talent searches, and most of them are relatively bright. I think IQ is a much more "weighted" number in our society; many people have an idea that it is a fixed measure of intelligence that can't be studied for and is unchanging (although I think most of us know better on that second point!). The tests used by CTY can indeed be studied for, in spite of the fact that you can find a table online that supposedly converts it to an IQ score. Just because a table exists does not make it accurate, by the way.

Believe me, it raises eyebrows when I tell someone D15's SAT scores, which I have occasionally done when the situation warranted it (eg, when asking a teacher for a recommendation for THINK for her). But I would be much more hesitant to share her IQ scores with others; that, I think, would result in changes in how people treat her. In fact, we have some evidence of that from our experience with the 'leak' of her very high IQ score. It was mad gossip around school for a while (um, for years...), I can tell you! Whereas her very high SAT score is interesting to them, but I don't believe people are whispering and sharing it.

I think the important thing here is the context. If your child has the context to understand the score and not lay too much significance to the particular number, I think it's fine to tell them if they are interested.

This is coming from someone who has no IQ scores and is too cheap to get them for her kids as well. I have plenty of data now for my oldest (DS9) pointing to above that 3rd SD though in a few venues. He hasn't asked for particular data, so I haven't given it. I file all the data, so maybe someday he'll be interested in looking at it.

Just a note to say that I've been keeping up with this thread with interest. I'm taking it all "under advisement" and am grateful for the feedback and different opinions.

Fortunately, the topic hasn't come up again thus far, so it seems I have time to really think about all of these things and put them into perspective where DS is concerned. I don't feel it's a critical matter, but it's in the back of my mind for if/when the time comes.

LOLROTF - time to confiscate the tee shirt! (Hasn't he outgrown it yet?)

Smiles,
Grinity

My kids only know the general +3 SD's above mean IQ (because they were in a program that requires that and makes no secret). They don't know their specific numbers. I was tempted once to show second oldest DS his report because he felt so threatened by younger brother's math ability. I wanted him to understand he was also incredibly able. But--I'm glad I didn't.

I love the fact that I can look at my DS7 in all honesty and say, "I don't know". He hasn't completed an entire test, although he is DYS. Based on his partial and his WJ scores, I have a fair idea but I don't have a concrete number.

There is a possiblity that at some point his new school will require that he be tested as there has been some discussion with the university regarding the need for him to have scores prior to dual enrollment. So I might end up with the "number" at some point, but I much prefer to just go with "Wicked Smart!"

If you are getting a good quality assessment the end number shouldn't be the sum of the experience or the main piece of information from the experience. Personally I would not present to my child that the reason to get an assessment is to get an IQ number because for us that was not one of the most important pieces. Further, I think it puts unnecessary and unhelpful pressure on a child to present it that way.

Instead I'd present it as an opportunity to better understand how he learns and what he needs educationally. That's how we presented it and our child has never asked asked the end number. He is in DYS and has information about the range. However, getting that information AFTER participating in the program provides a context where it makes more sense because he's met other kids and has the comfort of knowing even way out there on the bell curve there are still many like you.

I just bought a book called Smart Boys by Barbara Kerr because I think it was recommended by a man on this board in which thread I can't recall. �I was interested because they said it will help a parent deal with underachievement due to negative peer pressure. �Where we live I think we'll need it. �Actually the book starts off and highlights 100 years of how research and public perception of giftedness has evolved, starting in 1921-22 when Lewis Terman studied gifted boys to disprove the theory of that time, "early ripe, early rot". �(I think that old theory's back, LoL) �A later researcher studied gifted boys age 11-14 who 1.) felt that girls had more freedom than they �to express emotions, 2.)many saw relationships with girls as achievements and sought the "perfect girl" 3.) half thought they should hide their intelligence, etc... Much more.
There's stories of grown men who were gifted boys and examples of real boys who are gifted and studies of the recent historical changes in defining masculinity, and how it may be harder on gifted boys who are more sensitive and socially aware at a younger age. �It explores relationships and asynchronous development. �
It seems like a good book to help a kid think about some things that giftedness means and to understand some choices and their consequences unique to being gifted. �I'm only 1/4 of the way through the book but so far I see a lot of things you might want your son to know. �Cool book! �Might help you address his quiestion in a way.
Maybe someone else has read further than I and can say weither this book would answer a ten yr. old boy's quiestions about his giftedness.

Also, most people really understand very little about the tests and about statistics. They may not understand there are different tests. They may not understand what standard deviations are. They may not know contemporary numbers are on a scale that doesn't go as high as older tests. They may not understand that the same child might get a very different number on a different day or on a different test.

So I'm thinking part of when it is appropriate to give that information to a child is when they are prepared to understand statistics and IQ testing to know what the information they are being given actually means and what it doesn't.

LOL, Dottie. To hear this from you, our resident number expert, is quite enough to make me do a double take.

To me, the numbers are irrelevant for the same reason. Achievement trumps IQ anytime. I won't be telling my son because I don't want to take the focus away from attitude and effort.

FWIW, my PG SIL was told in front of her class in elementary school before her parents had shared the information with her...I would hope that teachers today would know better, but just something to consider.

My son has never asked for a number or anything like that. He did want to know what the testing was about. We told him that just like he gets his eyes checked, his teeth checked etc. he also needed a brain check to see how everything was working up there. He was quite jealous that a friend's daughter included a 24 hour EEG (she has a seizure disorder). He wanted to know when he could get a REAL brain check.

He tested at 5 and 6 and he's now 7 1/2. I don't see any benefit coming to putting a number on it. He already knows and feels out of whack with the rest of his classmates. A number wouldn't change that.

As a kid who tested PG myself, my parents never told me a number until my own son was tested and my mom was trying to figure out the quandary between old and new numbers.

I have been thinking about this but as someone who never knew, and whose children are unlikely to be tested, I didn't feel i had much to add. But what struck me as I read through the comments was that it doesn't seem to be the knowing or not knowing that causes the problem, but the who context that goes with it.

In my case, I don't know my IQ because I don't think I was ever tested. My family thought it was 'just smart' so it was all supposed to be about academics. So not knowing my score was a problem for me because I never knew that my IQ might be contributing to personality or social interactions. I wish we had known, and occasionally toy with the idea of getting tested so I don't keep thinking I'm just pretending to be gifted, lol. But that isn't just knowing the actual number, I suppose, it is more that I wish I and my parents had known more about gifted children.

A PP talked about the girl who knew her score and it was a burden because of pressure from her parents, but IMHO it isn't the knowing the score that was the problem, it was the way the score was being used. So even if she hadn't known the exact figure, the pressure would still be there.

I'm not sure this answers the question either way, but I think it is worth taking into account the whole situation, not just knowing or not knowing a number.

I agree, GeoMamma, that it's the context more than the number.

I grew up thinking I was MG. I didn't ever see/hear my score, and our family tried hard to fit in as much as possible, though HG+-ness runs in the family. Being smart was both what I was and something vaguely embarrassing.

I didn't find out my score until we were testing DS #1 when he was 5/6yo.

This is important because I knew he was smarter than I was, but my understanding of my own LOG was skewed low for decades. I think I'd have understood my own sense of being isolated as I grew up if I'd had some info about my testing. But more than anything I'd have been more prepared to help my own kids if I'd known my real LOG.

I don't think the number was necessary for me to know--though with proper explanation of the nature of test imprecision, score ranges, etc., I think I could have heard the number at some point in my childhood or adolescence and it would have been fine--but the LOG would have helped me a lot.

As a result, I have made sure to be pretty clear with our boys about the fact that they are, indeed, "wicked smart." It's matter-of-fact, like talking about the color of their eyes, but it's part of them, and it's an important part for how they learn. It is not something we downplay as if it's an embarrassment, but giftedness is what you make of it, no more and no less. High IQ or not, they still have to work hard, be kind to people, use good manners, etc., just like everyone does.

BTW, I was privvy to my achievement test scores, the standardized tests that kids get through school, but with basically no explanation about them. Until I was an adult trying to understand my DS's scores, I didn't understand that there was no such thing as a 100% on the tests, because the 99% really meant "99th percentile." I always worried about it on my own testing. And if I missed one and dropped to the 97th %ile? Ack! This was much harder on a perfectionist than knowing my IQ would have been, I think.

So I won't show *any* standardized test results to my kids unless I am sure that they can understand the nature of the results. I take a good long time to explain it all and to downplay perfection.

How can a fact about a person not be that person's business to know? Would you stand for someone deciding it wasn't your right to know your IQ? Or something about your health? I don't think a parent has the right to withold this kind of information.

Well, I think a child's ability to digest the info has to be balanced with the right to know.

I wouldn't tell my 6yo his numbers yet. But if my 9yo asked, I think he's mature enough now to listen to a lengthy explanation and understand what it means. More importantly, I think he's mature enough to understand what it *doesn't* mean. But he hasn't asked. In that respect, I think it's like info about sex: it's something parents should probably ease into over years in reponse to a child's needs, not drop in a kids' lap all at once once they hit an arbitrary age.

I think "it's their business" is too simple, though I agree in principle that it can have a profound effect on the child's life. It shouldn't be top secret, IMHO, but some discretion is advisable.

after IQ testing My DD7 wanted to see her test. I showed her and she asked how she did. I told her it's not something you can do badly on but I would say if she was graded she got an A. She seemed content with that. I thought this was cute.

A good IQ tester won't just give a single IQ number but a several page written report describing the findings, with sub-test as well as overall scores. Showing how a score is obtained may serve to demystify it. I do think my son should be able to read this report if he requests it, but I understand the logic of the people who disagree, especially for younger children.

One other thing about this is that when we have had testing our tester did more than just the IQ test. Part of what they used were checklists or comments from us and from D15's teachers. I felt like some of that feedback was given in confidence by those people, and they didn't really intend for D to read them (at least in the near term). D is 2E, so not every comment was positive I felt like that really was not info she needed to know. She has now seen the full report from the analysis done when she was very young, but I withheld that portion of the report (showed her only the final results section) for the report that was done this year. I felt that was appropriate to respect the teachers who gave the input. I also thought D would focus on their comments and not on the results and recommendations if I let her see that part of the report at this time.

I suspect that's probably the case for most kids. Some curiosity about it when it comes up in their world seems only natural. But more than a score, a number, I think what they're asking for when they ask is "What does this mean? What does this teach me about myself? About how I fit into my world?"

I think it's entirely possible to answer those questions in ways that are helpful to the child without talking numbers, certainly at least while they're younger than teens.

BTW, I think personality might play a part in things, too. If I had a highly competitive kid, I think I'd be less likely to share the number out of fear that he might use it as a weapon with other kids. That sort of thing is really detrimental to all involved, especially the kid with the IQ score! Part of the maturity issue would be the ability to exercise discretion even when pushed by other kids.

As I read through these posts one thought hits me.

If a child is gifted in sports we think it's just fine and dandy that we build arenas for them to perform in front of cheering fans and if little Johnny breaks the school record it gets blasted over the PA and shouted from the rooftops... yet when little johnny is discovered a genius, somehow he's "Different" in a hushed tone and it becomes not nice to announce to the world.

Maybe that's the reason that we have such a hard time finding funding to get these kids what they deserve.

We celebrate kids who achieve in athletics, not kids who have the potential to achieve. I.Q. is a measure of potential - I think it's more analogous to a genetic marker for a high VO2 max than to breaking a school record.

But I see your point. There are no homecoming festivities for the chess team.

I agree with JaneS on this one. Can you imagine the look on your face if some parent announced that his son had the gene for a major-leauge level pitching arm?

Let's save the sports analogy for budget allocation discussions, ok?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Such great food for thought regarding this issue, and so many things that I don't think I would have even considered had it not been for the discussion.

For me, the biggest issue is not about giving him the number, but rather putting it into a context. If I just told him the number and he had no frame of reference, he wouldn't know whether it was 'good, bad, high, or low'. And he has no reference (when the topic first came up and I was trying to not answer specifically, I asked him what he thought it would be and he promptly replied "like 300?"....boy, is he going to be disappointed, ). This showed me he has no clue about anything other than it being a number.

I agree with those who've said that maturity would play a part in the timing of sharing the info, and if/when it comes up again, DSs maturity with regard to information and the ability to process and truly understand what it all means will be a determining factor. It's simply a piece of information about him that I happen to have, and I believe he has a right to know it...at some point. (I do also believe that it's my privilege to share and not that of a teacher/tester/etc. I'd be upset if I thought someone who isn't as familiar with DSs whole person decided to give him the info.)

I don't agree with you. Suppose a boy gets a 700 on the math SAT before age 13 -- the qualification for the Study of Exceptional Talent. He *has* achieved something -- achieving a skill in mathematical reasoning -- that the vast majority of people will never achieve. There is a good chance he will use that skill to produce something that will benefit society -- more so than the child who runs the 100-yd dash the fastest. Good test scores are generally the product of BOTH innate ability and effort, and they should be acknowledged as other achievements are, in order to encourage future achievements.

To clarify, the person I was respectfully disagreeing with was Grinity in post# 80377. And let me say that I appreciate her contributions to this forum.

I am in COMPLETE agreement... I'm proud of my GT kid, and I have no problems talking about him with anyone else. And yeah, there are naysayers, but if he was a 6yr old Olympic champion, there would be naysayers then too.

But how many of the general public knows what an IQ score is? All they know is that it means you are smart or not. Right? When I have mentioned DS6's IQ to several people, they have not seen it as potential, but immediately as he is very bright.

As for genes for potential sports greats, it wouldn't be wrong to suggest that a child has the gene(s) to be a great athlete. In fact, a child with Black African ancestory has more potential, genetically speaking, to be a great sprinter, as opposed to a child who has Asian or European ancestory (muscle makeup is different). Obviously, it doesn't mean that he/she WILL be one, but...

Well, there's a middle ground here, and that's what I'm trying to hit with our kids.

I agree with Grinity that being smart is no more reason for cheering fans than having blue eyes is. Smart is just how you came from the baby-factory. You didn't earn it. You've done nothing to merit applause by being +3Sds (or whatever) any more than a kid who is -3SDs deserves booing.

BUT!

Having come from a family who always seemed a little embarrassed by being smart, I don't think that is acceptable either. There are other families who practice GT denial, trying desperately to cling to "normal" in a kid who is clearly outside the norm. That's a similar problem. Shame and denial of who a child is just aren't okay.

Thus the matter-of-fact tone I try to take with my boys. "Yes, kids, you are really smart. So what? What are you going to do with what you were fortunate enough to get naturally?" I expect them to challenge themselves and do the best they can do (within reason, so as to try to avoid unhealthy perfectionism), and that's what I applaud them for. I applaud when they try something that's hard for them and persevere to the end. I applaud when they use what they've got. I applaud when they solve problems and behave helpfully and act with kindness toward others because these are *choices* that they make, these are things they can *control*.

Just being smart? That's not up to them, so why applaud it?

I also sit on both sides of the fence with these last thoughts.

I agree that intelligence is just another characteristic like blue eyes, and I've used that line (well, blonde hair) myself. Despite DS6's latest off-the-chart achievement scores, I was much more proud of him when he got a 2nd place medal at his first taekwondo tournament. In the first, he just took some tests and used no more effort than most children. Conversely, with tkd, he had put in a lot of hard work and perserverence to earn the medal, and that's more about character.

On the other hand, I also agree that our childrens' academic achievements should be celebrated just like that with sports.
I used to get so irritated because everyone likes to compliment baby pictures or gross motor skills, but you can hear a pin drop in playgroups when people discover that your toddler is ahead. Apparently, religion, politics, AND early/advanced achievements all make for bad conversation starters in most settings!

My entire set of in-laws poo-poo any academic excitement/early milestones we try to share. Granted, I think they do this because my 2 nieces are definitely not in the gifted spectrum, and my 1 nephew had brain cancer and is very developmentally delayed on the opposite side of the educational spectrum. They try so hard to show that they're loving all the kids equally that they respond to little (not even a response when I emailed them about YS). That's not fair to these kids, either.

I would think that celebrating these gifts in an appropriate way is important to showing we care and encouraging them. A gifted child who rarely gets accolades for their achievements has little motivation to keep reaching higher and continuing their potential. I also agree, though, that a gifted child who is underachieving due to laziness (without underlying problems) should not be recieving compliments merely because they are smart.

Totally agree. This is exactly how we try to approach it too. And I grew up in a family that very much just wanted me to act and be normal. I think the kudos come later when and if they go on do great things with those brains. And I do think it's sad that the math team doesn't get as much attention as the football team. But I'm glad there are things out there like chess clubs and math teams even if they aren't as main stream and identifiable as sports. We live in an area that does have a high enough GT population to make these kind of things somewhat more common. High achieving high schoolers are regularly objects of recognition locally.

I'm not a big fan of either labels or numbers. I don't want DS to limit himself based on numbers or labels. However, since based on his most recent testing he has a 4sd variance between his processing speed and many of his other scores, we had to talk with him about what the tests he taks mean and why the numbers can matter. He often feels like he doesn't belong in the gifted program, not because he can't handle the work (in fact he still isn't challenged there overly much) but because many of his classmates who do better in the regular classroom are not in the program. DH and I struggled with talking to him for a few months when we kept getting the why can't I do what the other smart kids do, and why isn't so and so in the gifted program instead of me. Talking about what the tests tell us has helped him to understand that he learns and processes information differently. This really helped him to get a better attitude towards school in general and it is much more rare that he gets so down on himself.

I guess for us need won out over preference. I personally don't think that the exact numbers need to be shared. DS still doesn't have the numbers just that some of the numbers meet the school's criteria for the gifted program and that some of them meet the criteria for educational support. Like Dottie, we looked at a bell curve to talk to DS about it. We sort of showed him where he fell in different areas.

Regardless of the numbers, we reward effort and honesty not just being wicked smart

I'm late in reading these posts but find this a very interesting discussion.

zhian said "How can a fact about a person not be that person's business to know? Would you stand for someone deciding it wasn't your right to know your IQ? Or something about your health? I don't think a parent has the right to withold this kind of information."

My kids were tested at either 4 or 5 years old. I think I would tell either of my oldest two now (14 and 15) because they're mature enough to digest it (maybe) and perhaps wouldn't query about their other brothers or feel competitive. I remember being repelled by the little boy next door who, on the day we moved in, came over and announced "Hi I'm Michael and I have an IQ of 134" I also thought a little girl in my kids class was obnoxious because she told the other kids at school that she was exceptionally gifted and smarter than everyone else. I repeatedly lecture my kids (they will attest) that they might be smart but that doesn't make them better than anyone and what would truly be impressive is if they did something good or beneficial or helpful or important with what they had. Otherwise, there's nothing remarkable about it...and if I ever caught them bragging about their blue eyes their intelligence, I'd be very disappointed.

Out of the blue, last week my DS8 asked, "What's my mental age?"

Apparently, he recently stumbled upon a trivia book that included a lengthy section about the history of IQ testing.

I tried to blow it off by saying it depended on how he was treating his sister, etc., but that didn't fly.

When he pressed, we looked at the book together and decided that without going through a bunch of testing, a doctor might consider his abilities as they compare to older kids, and that the "mental age" could be different for various strengths & weaknesses. He must have understood that he needed to know his mental age in order to estimate his IQ based on the discussion in the book, but I didn't go down that road. But apparently, he did.

When I was cleaning up his desk a couple days ago (because his "mental age" for housekeeping is only age three), I noticed that he was running through calculations that considered the ages of his classmates. Going this route, he actually nailed his FSIQ. Funny.

We talked a bit more that evening, but only to stress the importance of saving IQ-related discussions for his parents. I told him I would discuss any aspect with him personally, but that nothing was to be repeated elsewhere -- especially with his peers.

He seems to have a good grasp of the necessary discretion, and has rarely -- if ever -- worn his brain on his sleeve. There's this positively unbearable little girl at school who's constantly chirping about how smart she is and how her IQ is the highest in the class. She catches holy-heck from many of the other kids about this, so our son definitely sees an example of how not to behave.

When he asks for his scores, I'll give him the range (and there's honestly a huge range), and I think it'll satisfy his curiosity.

This thread makes me think of a story about my D. When she was 3, we had her tested and she had an astronomically high score on the Stanford-Binet. The tester, a local university professor & psychologist who specialized in gifted/talented kids wrote this glowing report, envisioning a future for this child of college at an early age, etc. Kind of freaked us out

D's school experience did not always bear out these predictions for a variety of reason (asynchrony among them!). But she has done very well in some areas, and last year had a top 3 finish in a category for the Midwest Academic Talent Search (MATS). One result of that is that she was invited to our state's ceremony for MATS, and got some special recognition. Lo and behold, who should be on stage doing the recognition but this woman who had done the testing. D, of course, did not know who she was. We had not let D read the report at that time (I think it actually would have been a bad idea at an early age, as parts of it have NOT come true). D was not sitting with us, so I couldn't even give her a heads up.

So this woman beams at D on stage, and holds her up there, talking quietly to her for a few minutes. D comes back looking very puzzled... how did this woman know her? What was she talking about, saying she had known all along that D would accomplish great things? Um... D was a bit annoyed with us, as she does not like surprises, but got over it. D said it was sort of like being tapped for Hogwarts to get this unexpected recognition from this apparently important person. As I have mentioned in earlier reports, we did let her read the reports the next year. By then she was able to roll her eyes at how over the top some of the predictions were.

intparent, thank you for posting, what a story! It sounds like your daughter handled the situation very well. That must have been very puzzling for her indeed!

int -- that must have been a very bizarre experience indeed. But I love the Hogswarts comparison. That just seems so par for the (gifted) course...

Well... of course she wishes it really HAD resulted in attending Hogwarts

I'm very late to this thread, but it reminds me of a something my mother once told me that felt worth sharing. Apparently, the school tested my sister when she was young and her IQ was very high. My mother never told .... my father. She thought that if he knew he would press my sister to do something important like be a doctor and my mother thought she should be free to do whatever she wanted to do. She became a teacher.

We did not tell our daughter. One day when we were playing a game, she matter-of-factly told us her IQ. We asked where she got it and she said that she took a test online. The funny thing was that it was really close.

Gifties are good at figuring things out.

Interesting thoughts and discussion. DS is only 6 and has yet to ask about it. Anyhow, he knows he is gifted and in DYS which seems to be enough for now. I am not interested in giving him the number for quite a while because he doesn't know the whole context and many other reasons that other parents on here had concerns about. If he asks about his IQ, my response will probably be "very high" Maybe as he gets older I will even give him the percentile range since he is very mathematically oriented, but I also don't think the number is a great estimate anyhow. I could also do the whole "high enough that you can do whatever you wants to do in life." or "high enough that there are not many out there in the world that have minds that work like yours." He did extended scoring as well which they said is a more accurate estimate. I wouldn't even know a number to tell him anyhow. I also don't tell others his IQ because I don't think it would be fair that everyone knows his IQ and he doesn't. Obviously the school has his report so they know, hopefully they will keep it private.

My parents never told me mine. I was tested at 14. The shrink told me I was off the charts so they tested me like I was 25yrs old. A friend told me a few years ago that my mother privately told her a # and what it was. My mom and dad still don't want to mention it to me. I'm grown. Maybe I'm socially inept in many ways but I don't understand why it would ever be a secret to start with. I would tell a friend if she had lipstick or broccoli on her teeth. I know which neighbors have diabetes and who's kid won the football game last week. I just don't get it. I really don't get it. At least online I've seen discussions about why we don't discuss it. That helps.

I can think of a lot of reasons legitimate reasons why your parents may not have told you. Diabetes or winning the football games are factual events. An IQ test is a snapshot, a number on a given day. That number is one piece of information that absent interpretation doesn't mean a whole lot. Just one thing from your story... If a tester said my kid was "off the charts" I'd question how well they understand and can explain statistical information so I'm not sure I'd want to present anything learned there to a kid at a vulnerable point of life transition.

Yeah, I know. I've read Dottie's explination. (to other parents) Also that the test I assume I took isn't used anymore. I've been reading this board for how long? I mean, I get how the test works now. Even then I said, what did you expect? I'm good at taking tests. My parents and I have other things in life to worry about than the results of one test. But it's just weird to me that it's such a secret. I've seen the reasons. How hard is that to explain? It's not a big deal. I hardly care now, and cared less even then.
I love how Grinnity says: "gifted is as gifted does". And Kriston said: "we believe in Whatever works.". No reading too much into anything. Just a lot of common sense.
It wasn't until I found out that it's something that should be kept a secret that I thought it was strange. I'm not weighing in on the tell/don't tell debate since it depends on the family. I'm just airing my internal incredulity. I'm 30 something and neither parent has discussed it with me at all. My mother told a friend of mine a couple of years ago. Then a few months later mom asked me if anyone ever told me a number. I lied and said no. I mentioned it to my dad who acted like it was a secret I should not have heard about (even now ?!). Is that not the weirdest behavior?

Eta: I think you're right PTP. Someone did a poor job explaining the results to them so they think there's more mystery to it than there actually is.

There is also: high enough that when the test was added up, the scoring computer blew a fuse and cried for mercy!

Which is a little colorful, but once you enter the world of extended scoring - that's what I viusalize as happening.

I'm fully in the camp of not telling, but sometimes I would really love to. DS9 really doesn't believe he is notably smart. He accepts that he must be quite intelligent, as he's in a GT program, but as his abilities are skewed very clearly toward language rather than Math, he thinks all the Math whizzes out there (including his younger brother) are way smarter than him. Also, in his opinion Mom just thinks he's smart because all Moms think that! I'd love to show him some 'proof' but think it's better in the long run to let him figure it out for himself (you'd think those MAP scores and Grades might give it away!) Another part of me just loves that he doesn't think he's 'all that'.

lol, I like that one. I do feel like saying something like that when DS gets mad at himself and says "I am studid." Or when he happens to lose a game and considers himself stupid. I feel like explaining to him just how smart he is, but it isn't the time or place. Instead I do my counseling stuff with and talk about his feelings. : )

And Dottie, I have heard similar stories of children "off the charts." I often wonder what charts they are referring to. I have a family member (that shall remain unnamed) that insists that his son is just as bright as my DS6 and that they did testing with him and he was told that he can do whatever job he wants to do in the future. I have never told him any details about my son, because he is one of those who loves to compare. Plus he likes to put down acceleration and all that and tell me his son is just fine in regular classes and how harmful it is to grade skip (he is also one of those who has lots of opinions and no real knowledge to back it up). I won't go into details but I would be shocked if his son fell anywhere near the gifted range. Although even ND people (such as myself) can do lots of things in life if they are dedicated and hard workers, but to tell me that he is the same is my son is ridiculous. So I do hesitate to say "off the charts" when referring to my son and when I hear others say it I am a little apprehensive at first.

I'll bet you a dollar that this friend has totally blanked on exactly how many grades ahead your DS actually is - LOL!

My parents would never really tell me either, although they did tell me lots of things they really shouldn't have, and I got a lot of half pictures.

Anyway, recently I was thinking about stuff, and was frustrated with the half-picture I had, so I took an online test. I was ammused to discover that I was roughly around the 75th %ile overall, with several scores in the high 90's... doing the percentiles upside down from the usual

Erm.... take that as you may. But I think that I would feel a lot better (even now) if I had a clearer picture of how my mind works _in compairison with others_. I've always joked that I'm a dumb person who just acts smart. And I might be right!

Maybe it's more important to know if you're 2e (or GLD, as I was labelled in my youth), since the picture is more complicated. For me the picture was very confusing, as someone else mentioned regarding her son a couple of posts ago.

Or maybe it's more important to the information-hog type. I remember an argument my father had with a nurse while he was having a heart attack (!), he wanted to see the monitor showing his vital signs, because it made him feel "better." She thought it would "stress him out." I wound up reading it off to him at intervals. Now THAT was stressful. (but biofeedback works)

Information doesn't kill people, people with information kill people.... wait, no, that's not the way that one went....

-Mich (who really should be doing something else right now)