Alas, we got our narrow letter in the mail today. I'm not all the surprised, to be honest, so I'm not all that disappointed; I'd have been surprised if he *had* made it in.

Still, though, it's a bummer!

Mia, I'm so sorry to hear that. Maybe one day in the future, a different test will make the difference. All the best,

Questions

Hi Mia, we got the no-go letter almost a year ago. I took it pretty hard and really started to question whether DS was really "that" gifted. Hanging around here for the last year has been the best therapy. This is a great place to meet others who are dealing with the same issues and that is really what I had wanted from DYS. So now I don't feel like I "need" to get in like I did then. Not to say that if DS gets the scores on the ACT, I won't apply again....

((Hugs)) Mia! ((Hugs)) acs! ((Hugs)) Mom2LA ((Hugs)) to Questions, ((Hugs))Zia's Mom, ((Hugs)) to you if you need them and appologies to you if I've left out your name - please forgive, ok? If possible, check in here with your name so I can give you an individual hug, OK?


acs - I'm so glad you feel your needs are being met here. I guess nothing can replace the gathering, but there are other gifted conferences to attend, and I have heard wonderful things about the www.giftedconferenceplanners.org/ "Beyond IQ" conferences.

I know it's natural to question whether a kid who misses the YSP is "that" gifted. But I hope that you'll who don't get accepted get through that stage really really quickly. There's a list in the back of Deb Ruf's Losing Our Minds that shows famous people and her guestimate of their LOG that I would reccomend putting on the bathroom mirror during this stage.

In my experience, for every line you draw on that Bell curve, there are 3 kids that are "oh so close" for every one kid who gets accepted. That goes for your local gifted program, and for YSP! No wonder our School teachers and staff hate gifted programs - how heartbreaking to go through this 3:1 line drawing every single year! It must be so disheartening. Honestly the only way around it is the best way - to have at least 2 programs,(4 would be best, PG-HG, MG, Bright, 2E-and-2Eish, who need a different setting) for kids to move between, and to have a multistage screening process where the last step is 'if the child doesn't appear happy and challenged in current program, try another - if they can keep up, then yes, they belong there!That way Schoolies wouldn't have to feel bad, because for any particular child, there would be atleast two programs they could sit in which would met their needs! Wouldn't that be something! For the Grandchildren!

Given that you've just gotten the "no"s or the "no-for-now"s you may be wondering why I would create a program with all these groups and put HG and PG together? Because I do believe that the only business we have of labeling kids is to met their learning needs, and that HG and PG kids have learning needs that are quite overlaping, and so individual that the program will have to have lots and lots of differentiation.

To put it another way: Most Men are physically stronger that most women. But in every test of physicality there are some women who are faster/stronger/abler than some men. In this analogy one could think of swimming as math, and leg strength as writing. That's how I see the difference between most HG and most PG.

So Yes Yes Yes - Your Child is "That" Gifted. Anyone who is applying for the YSP is most likely dealing with a child who is "1 out of 500" at school. There do exist a few districts where the child would be 1-100 or 1-50, but these are quite rare. So if you hear that they are unusual at school - believe it - even though in your extended families, friendship or work circles they may be only 1 in 50. 1 in 50 is still a pain in the neck when you are looking for parenting advice!

Here's my post from the other thread about my 'mental map' of the gifted world. I would like to add creativity, because a creative MG child may be just as lost in elementary school as a PG one with the ability to challenge themselves.


Smiles,
Grinity

Mia, I am sorry to hear that you and Benjy got the thin letter. Benjy is very gifted. I am surprised, I thought he was a shoe in--too bad those 2 points make that much of a difference. Benjy's very lucky because you have already started to advocate for his needs at school. You also have a great support system right here.

*As someone who hasn't even applied yet I am suddenly worried that my son will not be accepted as well-sigh*

hi Grinity,
Thanks for the hugs. It is really the mood that you set here that has created a place that has been so helpful for me. So thanks for keeping the board active and supportive. Dottie too. I appreciate it so much.

I would disagree, though, a bit with the numbers. That is where I have struggled a bit. I thought at first that because we got the little letter that my DS could not be 1:1000 or one in 50000 or whatever DYS is tryiing to take. But after reading about testing limitations it is clear to me that a kid can be very rare, what DYS is looking for, but not have the evidence to prove it. I know that DS is pretty rare and way rarer than 1 in 500. We did not make the case well last time we applied and we may never make the case and that is OK. But I now trust my mom instincts and no longer need DYS to prove it. I know that there are others who are in the same boat (for 2E reasons, flukes of testing, not being able to affort the right tests, etc) who have kids that could be in DYS, but aren't ever going to make the cut-offs. That is OK. As I've said, i don't envy DYS for making those decisions and I think they are doing a good job. But all they see is some papers we send them; we know our kids so much better.

acs-

To reduce any person to a pile of papers is ridiculous, yet decisions must be based on something. A line has to be drawn. It happens with college applications, private school applications, and organizations like DYS. I see that the DYS app has undergone many tweaks in the five years my family has been involved. I like to think that they are getting better and better at finding the kids who need them the most. But as you pointed out, parents know their kids best, and if you feel in your bones that your child IS that bright, you are probably correct.

I love the Davidsons and appreciate all that they've done for my family, but DYS isn't the end all and be all of giftedness. There are other ways to network with PG families. There's this board, the annual PG retreat in Denver, a gifted listserve called TAG MAX PDQ (? not exactly sure of the correct title), state gifted organizations, and more.

Thanks Lorel, that's just it! I do appreciate the DYS, whether DS "makes it" or not. But they are inherently limited in what they are able to know about a child for many reasons, partly because the tests we have available just aren't very good at diffentiating in that top .5%. And also because they have to limit to certain kinds of talent and intelligence, some of which are never formally evaluated at all.

So I just don't want people who don't get accepted to think that that is the final word on their kid's abilities. I did that and I see now I was a bit nuts for doing that.

Thanks for all the condolences! Like I said, I'm not really surprised; his near-cut-off 148 was FSIQ -- his PIQ and VIQ were "only" 99.8, and his PSIQ (like many gifted kids) was only high average at 119. His PIQ and VIQ, while both extremely high, wouldn't necessarily put him in that top .01 percent individually -- not the very highest in either.

His milestone list isn't that impressive except for his reading; I think I focused on some of the wrong things on the essay questions; and he didn't really make the score requirements. So even though he's certainly unusual and impressive in his own right, he's not necessarily the very tippity-top of the heap. He's that layer smooshed below it.

So really, he didn't make the qualifications at all and I'm not terribly surprised -- nor really disappointed. I hoped his ceilings would make a difference, and his much higher-than-expected WIAT would help ... but I can see where they're coming from. So alas, I'll soldier on.

And to be perfectly honest (this sounds terrible but it's true), I think I would have thought *less* of the Davidson Institute if they *had* let him in! He's brilliant to be sure, but not the very very brightest.

Very well said, Grinity, and I agree! I think since I've sort of "found my feet" with the school (I hope; at least I *feel* a little more confident) and since I wasn't really banking on an acceptance anyway, I'll be able to get past the "not that gifted" phase quick. Of course, it's there, lurking its ugly head ... but I'm squelching it, because I know it's not true. He started subtracting into negative numbers on his own yesterday!

Sorry acs! I'm terrible at keeping track of who's kid is what level. It's just not how I file things in my mind. Afterall - I don't think HG v. PG really matters as much as personality, and 2eishness, and school history when trying to think about an individual kiddo's special educational needs, so I tend to lose track.

Opps!

I'm didn't mean to imply that your kid was any particular level, as that is something you would be the best judge of, but my overall impresssion here is that we have a large chunk of 1 of 500 or 1 or 999 level kids who's parents ARE struggling with the question of 'is my kid 'that' gifted.'

Bottom line: I sure wish that we didn't have to think about this so much, that schools would take responsibility for figuring out how our kids, and would then follow through. For the Grandchildren!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

So sorry, Mia! Now I'm wondering if we should even bother with the WISC and the DYS application...If B didn't get in, I'm dubious that DS6 will make the cut either.

Thin letter or no, B IS ridiculously gifted. He just is. That's one doubt/question/worry you don't need to have. He's just crazy gifted.



Amen, Grinity! Sing it, Sister!

*For the Grandchildren!*

(I really think we need t-shirts and tote bags that say that. It could be a way to recgnize one another on the street IRL. LOL!)

I'm sorry he didn't get it, but it was worth trying with 148. It's so close, almost there. He is obviously very, very smart and two 99.8 scores are very impressive.

In thinking about scores and testing and what they mean and don't mean etc I found this article to be really helpful. http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10405.aspx

I wish I'd read it before we had testing done (but it wasn't written until a year after the last IQ test was taken!)

Hey acs, I just read that link, good one.

Kriston, when you find a place to have those shirts/bags printed let me know.

I want to order one!

Ah, don't say that, Kriston; I don't know that it's true at all! Your ds sounds at least on par with mine, and ds hit ceilings on his WPPSI, so it may have been an underestimate. Or it may not have been. I don't really know. Still, you're looking for more information just as much as you're looking for Davidson guidance ... if you think it'll help you understand your ds, you should do it.

In fact, I'm more considering having one more test done, probably the WISC or the SB5, now that I know I'll be advocating without Davidson help. As I've said before, I think a higher ceiling may help me have a better feel of where he is, so that I'll know what's appropriate to be asking for. Still undecided, but considering it more again.

Very true about the ceilings. There are other things that many of us wonder about the scores in the 99.5-99.8 range. Was the tester prepared to deal with a kid that gifted? Did the kid get full credit for unusual (but correct) answers? Was my kid in his best form that day? Was he sick? Tired? Cooperative? Would he have done better on a different test (one that emphasized verbal? math?) Did he get bored and shut down toward the end?

I keep thinking of world class Olympic speed skaters falling a fraction of the second before breaking a world record. Does that mean that couldn't have broken the record or just didn't happen to break it that day? These are little kids we're testing and there are just a lot of variables, reasons they may not be at their best that day. And most of us can't afford to keep testing until we get the best testing situation for our kid. Just like the Olympics, the tests only come around once or twice in their lifetimes.

So yes, there are kids who do really fall in the 99.5-99.8 range(and they are dang smart), but for some kids who get that score, it is still not accurate. I just wish there was a way to know the difference. I'd be happy either way; it would just be nice to know. Sometimes I feel a little nuts wondering....

I agree 100% with absolutely everything you wrote here, acs. And even though your post is just above mine, I wanted to quote it so it's here twice, with emphasis on the heart of the matter, in my estimation. Consider it my, "Yeah! What SHE said!"

I'm dreaming of a test created JUST for HG+ kids that is actually designed to test the tail of the curve with some semblence of accuracy, one that the tester adapts to follow the child's preferred way of thinking rather than requiring that the child fit the test, and one that starts high enough to keep the child from getting bored and tired on the "easy" questions.

Yeah, I know. It'll never happen. But the irony of approving and rejecting HG+ kids based primarily on tests that cannot accurately measure said kids' abilities makes me a little nuts. Does this not seem hugely problematic to anyone else?

I think of the "Far Side" mug/t-shirt with the GT kid pushing the door that says "pull"...

I don't think that DS will get into DYS, but applying had a good side-effect. I asked the vice-principal for a recommendation for him. She decided to get to know him better and did some one-on-one money activities with him. She was VERY impressed with DS. I can't help but think that now that someone has noticed him it will be a good thing His K teacher knows he's smart but she has no idea what he can do because nothing is ever asked of him in class!

Cathy

Happily, my son was one of the children just accepted into the DYS program this month. I was not sure what to think - would he get in or no? Each one of us here have gifted children that are deserving. So many Moms have written of their children's acomplishments, their levels of giftedness were so astounding that I was truly disappointed when I read a few of the kids had not been accepted. (I had not heard of our status yet), but I knew - even as I sent my application in and waited (and maybe you did too)- that we would continue to try if not successful the first time around. Fall six times, stand seven. You know, that Old Chinese proverb. Nothing pays off more than perseverence. And I expected and was preparing myself to maybe go that route as well. So, although I feel blessed at the moment, I just encourage everyone out there who did not receive this wonderful news this time to begin anew and keep your attitude positive. It will pay off, one way or another.

Thanks Dottie! I was so thrilled to see that letter because I know the services offered are just what we need to help guide us through this life-long journey. My son has just turned nine. He is younger in some ways, and older in others - like many I'm sure. I am truly looking forward to becoming a participating member of not only this community - but of the Davidson YSP family as well. So thanks again and I'll be writing more I'm sure!
Sheryl

Oh, congratulations, Sheryl! You must be thrilled. Big, big congrats!