My just turned four year old is wearing me down. Yes, she can be charming, funny, highly imaginative, very artistic, and adorable, but the flip side can be very draining. I am home with her and her active, bright, mischievious two year old sister, full time.

She is so intense, with this constant stream of outward moving energy, highly melodramatic and prone to erupting into very, very loud, very, very intense screaming fits that are louder and more over the top than if she were being poked with a hot poker when maybe all it was is she got a little water in her eye. Here's another example: she told me "I ruined the life of a child" because I wouldn't buy her a stuffed animal and screamed and carried on for an hour. I didn't want to get it because she was so pushy and rude about demanding one. I don't reward that sort of behavior. She also has an inability to back down, is highly impertinent, and well, seems plain ole hyper to me and feels a need to grab things, loves to toss things in the air, and needs almost constant attention. She has gotten more attention from me, often one on one, than a majority of children so it isn't as though she has been ignored. There is probably more LOL

A year or so ago I went to a psychologist because I worried about ADHD or something else and that is when she was unexpectedly given an IQ test and he basically said she was very bright and he saw no signs of anything else, but all he did was spend the time together with the IQ test which is hardly a natural environment to see how she behaves: she stood almost the entire time and held on to the table and bounced up and down with excitement during the entire test(is that normal? LOL). She did quiet down to do the puzzle aspect which ended up being her lowest score. I also had someone from our school district come to observe her at school and they said the same thing: significantly advanced, but no signs of anything else. In fact, they said she was outgoing and introdues the observer around to everyone. Whatever you call what she is, I am just feeling exhausted.

There are not any children for her to play with on a regular basis so I get burned out from her almost constant need for conversation and interaction, but there is no easy solution. There is no one to babysit for us.

I know I have posted about this in the past, but am just feeling overwhelmed today and wondered if there are any resources. I have read all the common "spirited kid" books and many parenting books on parenting defiant kids, but wondered if anyone knew about books that deal with defiant, overly emotional gifted kids or can at least epathize with what I am going through...thanks.

Twinkle Toes! A big hug goes out to you along with a wish that somehow you miraculously are able to take a long spa day and recharge. :-)

I can relate to your situation. I have two intense children who are now 7 and 9. No one really ever wanted to say ADHD back when they were younger but they are being evaluated now. Not to say that your DD has ADHD not 100% my two do. We will have to wait to see if medication changes anything - haven't started yet.

I still dread parties, grocery stores, doctor visits etc. because I am never sure if my two (especially my DD7) will be "on" and charming and wonderful or "off" and as you say impertinent and in our case bossy and overwhelming to others.

It IS exhausting and sometimes I feel so isolated because I feel like I am being judged as a parent. I can tell you that while we have some impact as parents, a lot is genetic. I have two older (19 & 21) and they had a different father and were bright, easy going, easy to raise boys. These two have been different since day one.

Keep venting here and my only tried and true advice is to try to get breaks for yourself AND find other playmates who are also "more" with parents who get it.

Yours in exhaustion,
Breakaway

thanks so much for that note. Good luck over there. I know what it is like to have two children who are just set on HIGH all the time. I start to feel so disheartened as if I have done something very wrong as a parent, but deep down know there is only so much control I can have. My gut told me the same thing that you are saying: I need time away and they need friends to play with besides me. My DD is actually the worst at home and part of it may be I am burning out so I have less to give. If I take her alone to a show, even the ballet, or to an appointment, she can contain herself, and she also can sit quietly at storytime at the library and focus on art projects etc. so that gives me some hope. She was much more explosive at two and three. I know they say gifted kids are often intense, but I do still wonder about ADHD. I asked the teacher who observed and she wrote it off because she followed directions well and stayed on task, but the impulsivenss, constant talking, and intensity, is exhausting by whatever name you call it!

Thanks for stopping by my post to at least say you understand.

My DD7 was and is how you describe your daughter. As a toddler and preschooler I used to say that she literally sucked the life out of me. It was so hard to explain to others what I meant and I often got the feeling that they thought I was exaggerating. It was high intensity all the time. We avoided many situations, just like Breakaway4.

When she started school, her primary teacher was adamant that something was 'wrong' with her. She couldn't stay in her chair and rarely finished her work. Grade 1 was better, but her two teachers agreed that something was impeding her school work. She was smart but just couldn't get it together at school. At home, she literally bounced off the walls, talked non-stop, etc. Her pediatrician started her on ADHD meds based on teacher assessments. We went ahead with psyschological testing this year, in grade 2, and the psychologist agreed that she had some mild ADHD symptoms but was also profoundly gifted.

I find it easier to deal with DD now that we know what her issues are. It is easier to be patient with her because I know how hard it is for her to cope. I can't even imagine what it is like to be inside her head. Her brain runs non-stop. No wonder she acts like she does.

I don't have any good advice, just lots of sympathy. No one else truly 'gets' it unless they have a child like yours. I find DD is best on days that she is outside playing for a long time. She cannot be inside the house for any period of time or we all end up feeling a little insane.

TwinkleToes,

This is terrible, but misery loves company. Reading your very tired email gives me a place to stop and pant in commiseration. I have me one of those as well - PG and apparently mildly ADHD (big question mark here), and it is rough. In the past several days, I've gotten so upset with the churlish remarks, the subtle blame-it-on-mummy-for-this-and-that that I'm absolutely drained. And yes, there's the nonstop talking - it's doubly worse when I'm driving and he refuses audiobooks because he's just thought of a wonderful invention that he needs to talk about. Like a lot of you, I've stopped complaining to friends because they all think I lucked out. That sort of comment just stops me short because the very thought is so multi-layered. The more I explain, the more resentful I feel!

To cope, I've ordered a set of Howard Glasser books recommended by Grinity (if you're reading this, thanks for the rec) called Transforming the Difficult Child. I'm really hoping 1) to get them soon and 2) that they work for us.

I've been keeping a journal on what triggers these intense episodes and the latest I've come up with is that he's very easily over-stimulated. This happens when he's working on his robotics, having lessons with a high school physics teacher (thinks the world of DS and vice versa), or playing strategy board games. The last 3 nights, he barely slept a total of 15hrs, and he is crabby. You see, the school holidays have just started for him and he is free to indulge in his favourite past times. We're not booked to travel till mid next week and I'm trying hard not to blow my top in the meanwhile because he'll definitely be more relaxed once we're off. Unlike some of the other kids, he does not want to go out to burn off his energy or meet with anyone apart from his best friend (only happens once a week), so I'm stuck till then. At least this is the weekend and DH is helping to take some of the load.

In the meanwhile, yes, I'm trying to feel empathy that it's tough for him. That's harder to do on some days than others! And I'm willing myself to think positive thoughts. Absolutely, a spa day soon sounds necessary.

Maybe we can have a virtual group spa day for all the frazzled mums here. We certainly deserve it!

I'll join the virtual day spa. I see the subject line here, and think perhaps I wrote it. I don't have any great advice, but I'm thinking of checking out the books listed here on spirited/difficult children. Last night, soon after I explained to someone that DS6, who just finished kindy, would not be attending 1st grade next year but rather 2nd, he had the most atrocious behavior. He was screaming and sobbing because he couldn't find DH's bag (which contained his Nintendo DS), he was screaming and trying to boss me around because he couldn't get the food onto his fork just so, etc. When he was out of earshot, I tried to explain to my friend about asynchronous development, along with lack of sleep because it was the last week of school. I felt quite sheepish. I am hopeful that much of this sensitivity will subside when he gets a bit more sleep, but for some reason he keeps waking up earlier and earlier every day!

Good luck TwinkleToes!

oh no, you all have children who are older than my DD and they are STILL doing this so my hopes and dreams that have been resting on "growing out of this" have just been smashed up against reality. I was just being melodramatic to fit with the theme :-) Seriously though, I am hoping this evens out. Actually, I try to tell myself that this is the improvement. Yes, believe it or not, this is an improvement over where we were a year ago. I added some fish oil to her diet and tried the Nurtured Heart Approach and that took a tiny bit of the edge off, but still, spirited is a rather weak word for it some days :-) I have a friend who called her DD spirited and I wanted to say, "Are you talking about your submissive, meek, mousy daughter???" I love that kid, but have seen her in many settings and that child's "fiestiness" is a joke to me. That child clings on her mom whereas mine marches up to a line of adults and makes demands and requests when she was two and three. I have never seen that child cry or make demands etc. Sure she may be "worse" in private, but lucky for you you don't have to endure public humiliation, mine is worse in private too, but her public can have some pretty embarassing moments. Again, I have to remind myself she is so much better than she was.I can imagine how you wanted to hang your head when your child acted that way right after you had talked about a grade skip. I can imagine standing in your shoes and have been in similar situations. Oh yeah, for those of you who have profoundly gifted kids, it somehow almost makes it seem more sympathetic. I don't even know how gifted my DD is--what if she isn't very gifted and acts like this? She'll have no good excuse! ha ha

I believe that there are quite a few people who know my daughter who don't believe that she is PG. Her behaviour is just so out of sync. Sweet, kind, empathetic... and then hyperactive, talking a mile a minute or going off the deep end, sobbing hysterically. At least the temper tantrums ended around 4 or 5. I still cringe when she starts talking to strangers, but she IS getting better. And I can reason with her now and sometimes I can head her off or talk her down. It just takes an awful lot of effort for things to go smoothly. And when they go smoothly for her, I end up being the basket case worrying about everything and trying to anticipate triggers. I rarely get to enjoy it!

I want to find a shirt that has a disclaimer on it:

"I am only to blame for her good behaviour"

TwinkleToes, yes you are right. Even my son who is 7 has improved in some areas. When he was younger, he never had big tantrums outside the house; just inside. But these have disappeared. What's changed though, is that he's gotten much more sarcastic and manipulative. Last evening a little before dinner time, he smelt the cooking and said, "Delicious!" I asked if he was hungry and wanted dinner earlier. "Yet again, you've misunderstood what I'm saying", he said snidely. Or when I chided him on something. He started talking about how soft and sweet I was to him when he was a baby. "So where's all that softness gone?", was his punchline. And basically, getting him to stop what he's doing to eat/bathe/sleep is still a hassle, if not more so.

I keep telling him to rephrase to show love and respect. But on some days, my patience wears really thin. Yes it's true - there are times when he's the sweetest, most caring guy around. But when he gets into these periods of sharp-tongueness, I just want to hide in a cave and not be part of it.

Outside adults either love him or hate him because he can get so sarcastic. I'm hoping that he'll tone down by 8 or 9. So in the meanwhile, that t-shirt idea sounds wonderful, kathleen's mum!

hey Blob (love that name),

I am familiar with manipulativeness and snide comments and my DD just turned four last month! The other day she drew a fantastic picture on her etch a sketch that really amazed me, so being the proud mom I am, I grabbed my camera and asked if I could take a picture of it and she looked at me, gave me what I would call a "F you" look and erased it and said if I wanted to see it again I'd have to use my imagination. Maybe I am a pest in that I like to take pictures of the things she sculpts etc. but I don't follow her around all the time doing it, I am just proud and amazed by what she makes and this was particularly amazing (I haven't take a picture of something she created in months so it isn't as though she is hounded by a camera). I don't think it is a perfectionism thing (though I could be wrong). I think it is a control thing. I want the picture and it wasn't her idea, so she will fight against it.

Thank you to everyone on this board. This is the only place I can talk about my DD in a complete open honest way and think that someone might get it.

I completely understand where you all are coming from. My DD (almost 5) is very intense, can be extremely hyper to the point where I want to medicate her. The thing I realize...for me anyway, is that the difference between true ADHD and a "high energy" child is that a true ADHD kid can't turn on and off their hyperactivity; it's something truly innate. My daughter plays very well on her own when she chooses to, but after sitting for a while she needs to burn off some energy and she just becomes a wild child!

When she's bored she acts up...her behavior overall has improved since 3 yrs. old. Her behavior at 3 was absolutely atrocious...that was a very, very hard year. Her 4th yr. hasn't been easy either but I would say there has been improvements; I have seen her grow emotionally though still she will revert to very toddler-like behaviors. I told her today that when she decides to act like a 5 yr. old she can come down and join the rest of us. (She'll be 5 in less than 2 weeks.) She was in her room and she had no toys or books and had to sit on her bed. It took her a little time but she came down because the attention was taken away from her.

My DD will also do really well on something then either scribble on it or will even pretend to forget how to do something which is absolutely infuriating! I would write more but we have company...I'm just so glad that other people struggle w/these types of behaviors. Sometimes you just feel that you're alone in this even knowing that you aren't...I just couldn't find anyone else w/a child like mine till this board.

Hugs to you all!

Azuil

This board is a life saver for me. I am so glad Grinity directed me here from another board. Thanks Grinity.

My DD does quiet down for some activities, but there is so much chatter, emotion, movement, etc. that it makes my brain ache.

Tonight she drew a squirrel and it was exceptionally good for someone who just turned four, and she was disappointed with it and said the eyes were wrong and made a big dramatic X over it. I tried to tell her that she draws amazingly well for a child, but she was frustrated by her limitations.

We actually had two really good days. I was able to get a little time away from them and that helped my tolerance. I am going to work very hard at being calm when she goes into a storm.

What is your biggest challenge right now with your DD? Does she have regular playmates?

Twinkle Toes and all the mums here,

This really is a fabulous board. It makes me sane to have a place to vent and smile when I read how the other kids are (somehow when it's not happening to me, it sounds soo very smart and hilarious ). Best part is, because it's happening to a lot of people here, I know I'm not a bad parent; I'm only just trying to cope. A pat on the back for all of us!

Twinkle Toes my almost 4 1/2 year old DS who was recently tested as HG+ sounds exactly the same. During his testing he bounced on the couch, stood on his head while discussing with the tester what faces looked like upside down. Yet the tester said he was totally engaged throughout and his results were certainly proof of that. He just has boundless energy. DH and I alas do not.

His daycare went from adoring exasperation with him - just after he turned 3 he told one of his carers who was trying ways to get him to have a nap that "I'm not going to negotiate with you" - to them just not being able to cope with him being unable to sit still, touching others, not listening, talking talking talking. They were suggesting we see a pediatrician about autism or a behavior disorder such as ADHD. We thought he was bored out of his mind but weren't sure and open to it being something else so went with a psych who specializes in both giftedness and autism. She saw no signs of ADHD or autism but an exceptionally gifted child.

We had the tyrannical 3s where he drove us almost insane. From the no tantrum 2s he suddenly started to have super sized meltdowns over the smallest things. His grandparents refused to take him out anymore because of the embarrassment he caused them once - he'd already been somewhere they were taking him as a treat so wanted to be the one in charge - they wouldn't let him and all hell broke loose.

Things have improved immensely since the beginning of this year. For us the problem wasn't too much stimulation but under stimulation. He started preschool 2 days a week and has 1 day of care at his old childcare centre but up a level, and 1 day a week at another where his little sisters go and he loves it! The diversity and novelty of going to 3 different places each week thrills him and gives him the necessary stimulation. His old childcare centre who didn't know what to do with him now adore him again. Yes he still talks too much and has too much energy and some days tries our patience to the very edge of it's limit but now that he's more stimulated he's much happier in himself and the most entertaining kid imaginable.

Freya, your story reminds me that when D15 took the Woodcock Johnson at age 4.5, we were in a large, almost empty conference room. She raced back and forth and slammed her body against the wall while doing a section where she had to repeat more and more complex sentences (adding a few grunts into the middle of the sentences, but otherwise showing off her amazing verbal skills). The tester didn't stop her, so we just kept quiet

She doesn't have a regular playmate unfortunately and that is frustrating. I babysit for a 7 yr. old boy who frankly is less mature than she is although her maturity goes out the window when she's playing with him. She gets very frustrated by him and him by her. I won't be babysitting him much longer because of the dynamic btw. the 2.

I really want to find playmates for her that are more mature. Her behavior is so much better. I'm frustrated right now because of it. Kids find her overwhelming a lot of the time I think and intimidating. She is such an extravert but does get easily angered.

Her reading score was in the 99th percentil for her age and the math was 97. That being said, her verbal and nonverbal were significantly lower at 88 and 90 percent. Even though those numbers are above average...I believe it impacts her relationship with others in that she has so much knowledge in her little head but isn't able to express it enough to problem solve effectively, etc. But no one would look at those scores and say she has a learning disability but frankly...the scores are so far apart that really it kind of is. 140 is the 99th percentil reading score...verbal at 88 is 118 and nonverbal at 90 is 119. That's a big difference.

The only book I have read that seems to help is 123 Magic. It isn't necessarily for "spirited children", but it helps take the drama and exhaustion out of living with a child like yours. I understand completely as my son is exactly the same way.

He is eight, and it hasn't changed. Every little thing is a HUGE deal. If I ask him to pick up his shoes I am "overwhelming" him and if he spills his drink or gets water in his eyes he starts crying and carrying on like you're beating him. It can be horrible and exhausting and very, very frustrating.

I have exhausted every angle of "logical parenting". Talking to him, explaining, reasoning......none of it works. I KNOW he has heard me tell him a thousand times what behavior is acceptable and what is not. Now I just count.

I don't know if you will like it or if you have already checked it out, but it may be worth a look. Especially since you also have a two year old. I have a two year old as well, who recently taught himself to use the microwave, correctly, to make waffles and oatmeal.

I hope this helps.

I posted this on another thread, but have you read Raising the Spirited Child by Kurcinka? When D15 was about 3, a neighbor showed up at our front door and gave me her copy. I was mortified... but it was a relief to find out that it wasn't just my kid who acted like that, and I got a few tips for dealing with her. Nothing really helped like time, though... D15 is mortified now when she hears stories of her behaviors at that age. It just took a lllooonngg time to teach her that just because she COULD do something didn't mean that she SHOULD do it.

TwinkleToes,

I share your pain. Our dd (5) is also very dramatic, sensitive and bossy. We've found that she does this more at home than anywhere (she knows we'll love her and she can heap it on). At school and with others, she's very even-tempered.

We recently read "Raising your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. Kurcinka goes through the process of helping to understand why our kids do what they do and how we can think about these things as strengths, i.e. persistence rather than stubbornness. The "bossiness" our girls display now, will shortly become leadership. It's forgivable to be learning it now, doing the same thing in her 20s will get DD into trouble.

She also has a scale of "spirit" and recommends that everyone in the family tally up their "spirit". In our family of three, on a scale of 9 to 45, we came in at 35 (me), 38 (DH) and 39 (DD). Kurcinka considers anything above 32 to be spirited, thus more prone to the types of issues you're running into.

I think it opened our eyes (at least a bit) to the idea that part of the situation is our own sensitivities and perfectionism.

I hope this helps!

Maryann