Learned the whole, praise the effort, not the outcome part early on.

Now DD is 5.5 and praising effort is not enough. I have a repeated message with her: the hare did not win the race. Yes, she is talented, yes, she can do things easily, but doing them well, not just doing them is importantly. Or outcomes do matter. And I hate that she learned this so early. I thought she would be 14 when she figured she got an 80 without opening a book, so who cares about a 95.

It comes out in the piano and also this year in the ballet. I notice her gymnastics coach and last year's ballet teacher wouldn't let her get away with just doing it. They pushed her to do what she could do and she tries harder. Or tried harder last year in ballet.

In piano, because you have that daily practice. She wants to just do it and get it done. "how many times do I have to play this piece?" With piano you do have to play over and over again to get the muscle memory of doing it right.

It is hard because she is very young but plays at a high level. She isn't passionate about it, though loves to be able to play fast and complicated pieces. She is just not that thrilled about perfection with piano. She isn't a perfectionist. She used to be worried about that sort of stuff but has lost it. Things are coming too easily for her. She is always done first at school and helps the teacher.

Yes, we are making changes next year. She did get the 99 for the OLSAT but we have to wait for a seat in the lottery June 4th.

Have a backup plan with accelerating the math and the local school has a good chess program so we can add that.

But I would like to hear from parents that have this same problem. Where they get how easy everything is for them and they don't have to make 100% of the effort and they don't want to do it as good as they could with work. Just do it.

Ren

I didn't fully understand your post...but...FWIW, I don't think that pushing a child helps increase motivation. Actually, it probably decreases it by associating negative feelings with the forced activity.

If your daughter wants to play a song perfectly on the piano, great. If not, so what? Why push? It's her talent, right?

I try to create an environment that will challenge my kids. Grade skips help in that regard. Also, I coach them gently when they're feeling frustrated and say things like "It's too hard! I can't do this!" At these times, I remind them about other things that seemed impossible at first, yet turned out to be possible after all with a bit of honest effort. But outside of homework and chores, I don't force them to do stuff. Well, I force them to take a bath or go to bed, but I don't force them to be perfect skaters or gymnasts or dancers or whatever. Or perfect math whizzes.

I can't create internal will to give 100% effort (or even 50% effort). People have to motivate themselves. No matter what my perspective is, I can't put motivation into people, whether I'm acting as a parent or as a boss.

Also, put me down as someone who praises both outcome and effort. If praising an outcome is so bad, why do they award medals at the Olympics and hand out prizes to the kids who win Math Kangaroo?

Val

I agree totally with this. There are so many gifties out there that drop something if it is difficult. I also worked with my daughter on piano. Same issue with her - she was good, but did not like the practice. Now, she plays percussion and is writing parts for the bells. Aha! She did learn something and (sort of) appreciates it.

She will be in 8th grade next year. I have had a fight with her principal to have her take a developmental course at college this summer and skip 8th grade English. In 7th grade English, they learned pronouns for two months and moved to adjectives.

I worry about her ability to struggle with new topics. I want her to take Spanish next year instead of English. She will have to work at it since we don't speak Spanish. And since it is a HS course, she will be with other bright children - not the bullies that are low.

This will pay off later. I have seen so many giftie failures and this is the primary reason - they don't know how to learn and eventually, if they are successful, they will have to learn.

Oh yes
My DD is totally like that. She played violin for 6 years because I thought that it was really important to have at least one thing that, if you work at it, you improve. Right now we have horns locked over the idea that we need to learn alittle math that for some reason is a hole that can be "gotten" within 30 ,min.

Gosh, this is what I'm facing at home. DS started and stopped the piano because it was difficult, yes. I didn't think he had much interest in music to begin with, so I agreed for him to stop.

He loves math, but he's at a point where there are multiple operations to be done, and if he stumbles, he wants to stop. Well, not! I think his ideas about himself (that he's very bright) is a major hurdle in learning - he doesn't like the feeling that he's on uncertain ground.

What is helping somewhat is this diagram I found here:
http://learningandteaching.info/learning/resistan.htm

I'm sure someone who has a degree in education can explain this better. I use it to tell him that old skills become boring or stale after awhile, and to obtain a new level of satisfaction, he sometimes has to step off his comfort zone, feel disoriented, but with effort, he can reach new heights for himself. Hopefully he can talk himself through for difficult tasks as he gets older, *crossing fingers*.

"Pushing" the child for the fear that their potential is not reached. I think that is the dilemma for some parents. How do u define "push" or "encourage" ?

We all know that talent is nothing, without hard work.
I see a difference in those kids who "made it", be it an Olympic gold figure skater or a famous singer. They do not aspire to be "someone" but themselves. There is this inner drive in them that makes them want to do what they are good at.
We, parents, provide the support and the encouragement.
Arts to me, is something to be enjoyed. Yes,daily practise is a must but it shouldn't be a chore when they get started.
To the OP, I think this is something u need to decide for yourself and your child, how much is enough.

Hi Wren -- I can barely believe that your daughter is already 51/2!

As I said earlier, my dd 11 is very much like all these kiddos. I also really try to model the learning curve -- especially the trough-- so that it appears like normal. I have experienced the trough many times -- especially in language acquisition. The phenomenon works like this: You're in country X getting along fairly well in language X. Then one day you have a total cognitive breakdown in language X and can barely squeak by going to the store to buy oranges or getting on the train. After a week or so you wake up one morning with a command of language X that is far more nuanced and effective. And then, after a while, the process repeats.

This is all hard stuff. Homeschooling I tend to be pretty laid back. But I do require the kids to be challenged and engaged for a period of time every day. And that does include music lessons for them. Music lessons can be great for GT kids, but if it's not their thing, I think that's fine too.

I think the thing that really comes to mind is that it is a marathon, not a sprint. My kids are definitely kids that would be happy to coast. They do need to be encouraged and prodded, to try new things. I back off if something isn't for them. I am seeing some encouraging signs in my 9 year old in terms of self motivation. But it definitely wasn't an overnight thing! To me it sounds like you are doing a great job giving your child outlets to challenge themselves.

Thank you for all the support. It was really good to hear your stories.

And thanks for your perspective Val. But if I only let her do what motivated her, hands would not be washed very often, rooms would be very messy and cheezits her main course.

And what really worries me about that motivation attitude: it was similar to my parents. And in my limited sample, including myself, kids like that found out that partying motivated them.

She had a ballet recital yesterday and the teacher has this core group called the "company". The kids start in about 4th grade. They get to perform a lot in this last recital with all the young kids. I noticed they were very sloppy dancers, with their arm and feet positions. Last night I asked her: "you said you wanted to try out with the NYC ballet school next year. If you perform with them, you might do a lot of performances of the Nutcracker but have a very small role but you have to do it really well. I notice that Miss Parsla's company gets to perform a lot but this one show. But they are kind of sloppy dancers. Which do you want to do? This big performance, but sloppy, or a little performance and do it really well? She chose the latter. Which I took as a good sign.

I also think the quality shows up in just certain things, like piano or ballet. You can't tell the quality of math problem solving. The kid knows it or doesn't. And motivation to learn about something doesn't have a quality grade. You cannot say he did that sloppily when they are 5. (Now I will be bombarded with posts that say their 4 year old creates a research outline.)

But I think the gist of point is there.

Ren

Well...I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

My main point is that you can't force motivation into someone.

This is only my one opinion here, but to me, pushing a little child to excel or to even bring a term like sloppiness into a conversation with a five-year-old is, well, more reflective of what the parent wants to make the child do rather than what the child wants. Or what is actually good for the child. I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm just trying to show another perspective.

Children who are forced to perform to adult definitions of what's good and what isn't are less able to develop an inner sense of how to excel. This puts them at risk of burning out early and becoming unhappy teenagers and/or adults to boot.

I'm just writing from what I've read in your posts. Based on that information, I don't understand why it's important to push a little girl. For example, you said yourself that she isn't passionate about the piano; my response was, "That's fine. What she wants to be passionate about is her decision, not yours." There is absolutely, positively nothing you can do to change this fact.

Let her find her own passion and when the time is right, she'll have her own motivation to excel.

Val

Wren,
I hear you and Val! DS is now 11 and we are finally seeing that he has glimmers of understanding the value of effort and output. From very young until just recently, he bounced around alot of activities trying to find one or two that challenged him, enthused him and motivated him to as I put it learn how to learn. He has done karate, oboe, tennis, piano, soccer, drums, art classes and probably some others that I have forgotten. Currently he is taking acting classes and ice skating. These are activities that truly seem to click with him on a level we haven't seen before but it took alot of trial and error to find them.
The really great thing is even activities he really doesn't like such as homework are getting easier now that he has a perspective to understand the relationship between effort and output.
It was really hard to take several deep breaths and steps back when his coaches and family could see that he had so much potential in so many of these activities but he just wouldn't put in the effort to realize the potential. None of the time was wasted since he did get a very broad base of knowledge and the balance he learned with karate is a great help in the ice skating. I will admit to many (not as calm as I would have liked) discussions about not working up to his potential, slacking off, and being willing to settle for less than his best. I also have to admit that I don't think a single one of them made a bit of positive difference. It really did take some maturity and the right activities for DS to get the idea across.

It sounds like your daughter is an amazing child with amazing opportunities in front of her. But, she may still be very young to understand the future value of the effort she puts in today.

Elh0706: beautifully said. Thanks.

Val

elh706, tks so much for giving me hope. I try to overtly provide the connection for my DS7, but that hasn't happened yet. Was just talking to DH - I shall ban the words "easy" and "smart" from my vocabulary . I say to him, "It seems easy for you because of all the hard work you put in, not because you're smart", and all he hears is "It's easy for you ... because you're smart"!! *faint*

To the OP, I see what you're saying. You're trying to inculcate good habits and high goals at a young age. I'm taking a page from elh706 to say, give it time. There was a time when, especially after I learnt how gifted he was (it's embarrassing to say it now, but it's true) that I became so frustrated with my son for not doing more. This is ironic because he is far ahead in so many areas, but all I could think of was that little bit more. I've come to realize that sitting back, observing, and experiencing the process of growing together is so much more fulfilling than fitting him into some model of a "gifted child". Potentially too, it will provide him with a better sense of himself than if I were to keep shaping him.

Your daughter does sound very wonderful and you must be so proud of her. All the best to both of you.

Wren

I am from china, I can tell, your thought very much like chinese.

When I was young, I did not have much fun in my childhood, all I have done was studing hard to get in good UNI. Stay awake till 1 or 2 am is pretty normal in high school.

Nowdays, the situation of children in China even worse
I don't want my son repeat my life, but also, I would like him to know, he has to work hard to achieve things...

So, there is balance there...

I re-read my post and realised that I didn't really answer the question! :P

For my kids, I know that they know if they have put in their best effort. Sometimes results don't show because of 3rd party influence. (eg. having a very strict, or demanding teacher/ examiner), or the environment. If I praise them for something which is done just for the sake of completion, they know I am not being truthful.
So in our family, we celebrate the effort of accomplishment, regardless of the results. This based on my assumption that everyone wants to do well in something that they are good at. For things that they are not good at, the effort of just trying is good enough for me.

Agree!

Well, it is an interesting discussion. We had a discussion here at dinner.

I asked her, since her recital is in one week. Does she want to do it really well or sloppy? She said she did not want to be sloppy. I told her that she needed to work on the problem areas, but the pieces sounded really good.

Baby steps. And yes, Val, I treat the piano thing as her practice at effort because practicing doesn't thrill her. (never want to go the ice skating route, which is something that interests her). I pay for my knees now for that activity.

I really appreciate the views.

Best,
Ren