My ds Benjy, 5y6m, is in kindergarten and recently identified borderline EG/PG -- given the WPPSI subtest ceilings, his score is in a gray area. His public school has not been making many accommodations for him -- they'll give a harder worksheet, but not teach anything else or follow that worksheet up, etc. So we're going in for a meeting tomorrow with his k teacher, the principal and the gifted teacher to figure out what to do for him.

Ex-h is pulling hard for a grade skip NOW, while I'm just not sure Benjamin is ready. Then again, I can't figure out how many of his "issues" in school could be due to his tuning out a completely non-stimulating environment. He needs to be called repeatedly sometimes to get his attention, he isn't particularly careful with his backpack, lunch box, etc. Typical kindergartner issues ... and his handwriting is right on par for a first semester kindergartner. I'd rather wait until the end of the school year so that we can get him a little closer to where that next age group would be.

On the other hand, I think that, with encouragement and the right environment, that he'd thrive with a skip now -- he might actually have to *learn* something, gasp! At least there would be more work and more chance to stay engaged at school.

The other thing is that he's *very* suggestible through the behavior of others -- if the other kids are doing it, naughty or well-behaved, he'll be doing it too. So I'm thinking that if he were placed in an environment that was more suited to his needs, quite a few of his issues will clear up pretty quickly. He's also pretty good at consequence-type reinforcement; we had a reward system to help him get "green marks" for behavior at school when he was getting in trouble, and that worked like a charm. So a similar system may work well with his organizational issues -- again, if the school will work with us.

I'm talking to ex-h tonight so that hopefully we'll be on the same page tomorrow ... Anyway, wish us luck!

Mia

Best of luck, Mia! I'm interested to know how it turns out.

Cathy

Just wanted to wish you luck with whatever you decide! I know that has to be a tough decision. I'm curious what the school has to say about the issue as well. Keep us posted!

So much has to do with the recieving teacher. See if you can sit in on a possible recieving teacher to see if you think he would be able to handle it. That's more politic than saying that you want to check out the teacher.

Handwriting itself is something that just comes with time and practice. I wouldn't consider holding a kid back from an otherwise appropriate placement based on handwriting alone - I would order the "Handwriting without Tears" book and special writing paper, and work on it at home, particularly over the holiday break. It may not have visible results now, but it will eventually bear fruit. If you don't get results and can afford it, or get insurance to pay for it, there are OTs (Occupational Therapists) who are certified by the HWT folks who can do a diagnostic session and give some help catching up. By the time we were thinking "Gradeskip" it was later, and DS11 was already keyboarding, but even with his exclusive use of keyboarding last year, his handwriting improved last year. It must have been development, because it sure wasn't practice!

Smiles,
Trinity

Hi there Mia,

Incog here, you left me some encouraging works back on my "need advice communicating with kindergarten teacher" thread. I appreciated it!! Hope things went well with your talk at school today. Look forward to an update!! Advocating for your child can be a little draining sometimes. To me, working with the schools sometimes feels like herding cats. What you are doing is worthwhile, however, and will make a difference for your child on some level.

Peace,
Incog

Thanks for the encouraging words, ladies!

Our meeting went all right. They actually seemed much more impressed by Benjy's math than his reading, which surprised me; I've always seen Benjamin's reading as his strong point. But whatever.

He'll stay in his "advanced" reading group with another child from K (who doesn't read like Benjy does, but somehow Benjy only got to level 27 in their DRAs as opposed to his private testing, which put him much higher). They have a reading specialist come and work with them for 20 minutes, four days a week; they pointed out that this is more than he would get in a first grade classroom for now.

And the kindergarten class is set to take their MAP testing (Measure of Academic Progress) in January, but they're going to do Benjy's MAP math assessment in December. If his math testing puts him at the right level (and it should, if he pays any attention at all), he'll be pulled out to first grade for math, probably the advanced first grade math group that meets with the gifted teacher. They told us that group is working on stuff like perimeter, which would be right up Benjy's alley.

We've all agreed to see what happens, and how he seems to be responding to the first grade classroom, and follow up again in January to consider a full-grade skip next fall.

I think this is a great solution for us. The thing that bothered me was that the principal is one of *those* principals -- she's a principal for the ages, the type of person you picture when you think "principal." It's hard to explain, but you'd know her if you saw her! Anyway, she kept talking about social and emotional impacts of a skip. *All* the recent research shows that for kids at this level, skips *are* the best thing you can do socially and emotionally.

Obviously there are some exceptions, but she was talking about this being a very risky move, which I just don't see it to be. I wanted to pull a bunch of papers out and wave them around but decided that, at this point, it would do more harm than good! So we'll wait for a while on that.

I guess I'm fairly happy, but they kept bringing up issues without proposing any possible solutions -- mainly Benjy's scatterbrainedness, a trait which he exhibits at home as well. They also pointed out his age-appropriate handwriting, which made me want to scream, but they didn't sound like that was a main concern for them. We're going to work on being more responsible for our own things at home, and we've been working on handwriting as well. Hopefully that will translate to the classroom; his writing is already seeing an improvement.

What an interesting road this is!

Mia

That sound promising Mia. Be sure to ask for the detailed test results from the MAP tests. The testing company provide a 30 page detailed report with all kinds of specific info about the child on request. If it is the MAP test I am thinking of, it will self correct itself and put the child at their readiness level for most of the test. Translation: You will really get quite a look at his functioning, no stopping when the child maxes out gradelevel expectations!

Math seems to be easier for schools to recognise than reading, although I'm not sure why that is. Is it possible for you to observe the reading specialist? 20 minutes 4 days a week sounds very impressive, and might be, or might not be, depending on what actually is going on during those 20 minutes. Another question I have is "why?" Why wouldn't the specialist come to him and the strongest 1st grade reader if he was placed in 1st grade?

I'm sorry I've forgotten, Mia, but was your son early enteranced to K? Is he old or young compared to the rest of his classmates?

As for the Princip. I only suggest refering her/him to the educators guild, a Davidson Program for educators.

I can only imagine what the big deal is with grade skipping that frightened all these folks! Was it perhaps that the grade skip was the end of the accomidation, and not the base for subject acceleration? If the only kids who are allowed a single grade skip are the ones who need 3 or 4, then yes, you are going to see a lot of pathetic little single skippers. Very sad. It's like saying Antibiotics don't help with infections if there is a strong custom to only allow perscribing the antibiotic at one tenth the effective dose. ((shrug))

I'd seriously love to know what really is going on!
Trinity

I think you're on to something here, Trin.

Yes, it's the self-correcting MAP test. The principal was ridiculously excited about it; I think this is one of the first years they've used it. I'm really interested to see how he does. They refused to give him the MAP reading test early, which I thought was kind of odd; she said that it wouldn't make a difference in his placement since they already did the DRA. Not sure I believe that, but we can wait the month; if he's able to go for math and does well, I hope they'll let him try reading, too.

Actually, after speaking with the principal, I'm fairly impressed with the differentiation that goes on in the school as a whole. They do individualized reading groups, up to seven in a class, which I think is fabulous. They are also, it seemed, quite willing to pull a kindergartner to first grade math (although she said it was "not uncommon," which makes me wonder how challenging the first grade math will really be).

Anyway, yes, Benjy would be put with the strongest readers in the first grade class. Trouble is, since his DRA score wasn't very high (I mean it was, but not for him), there might not really be a higher reading group in first grade, depending on the kids. Or at least that was what it sounded like to me, from what the principal was saying; he'd be in the same level group as if he were in K, just with older kids. I suggested that, if the math pullout worked well, he also do reading with the older kids, to see how he'd do with that. The principal seemed at least receptive to that.

They just seem to be very strong proponents of the "keep the kids with their age group" philosophy; but all the research I've read suggests that this is *not* the best for most EG/PG children and that they are actually happier with the older children. I don't know how to point this out without sounding like a big giant know-it-all, which I'm most certainly not. I will check out the educator's guild, thanks!

The other thing was that the K teacher and the principal kept talking about the other "strong reader" in Benjy's class. We know this child; his mother, while volunteering in the classroom, figured out that Benjy could read and struck up a friendship with us. We've gone over for playdates for the kids (they're good buddies) and discussion for us about the school situation, so I know what's going on with this kid. And I know that he's bright (memorizes maps for fun), with some *major* sensitivities going on. But he's just not on the same level as Benjy. He's reading, according to his mom, reading on a first or second grade level. They'll get the same math enrichment sheets (some pattern drawing, some word problems like, "If you had 16 cookies and you gave 7 to a friend, how many would you have left?", etc.). Benjy got them all right; the other little boy didn't get them because, his mom said, "The teacher didn't teach it, she just gave them sheet."

As I say, the other little guy is certainly very bright. He's just not where Benj is. So I wish the teacher would stop pretending that they have "many" children like this!

Benjamin is a May birthday, so he's on the younger side (September cut off), but no early entrance. I know that his school *does* do early entrance; there is a child in Benjy's class who just turned 5 a few weeks a go. He was in Montessori Early Childhood for the year before he started at his public school.

I'm sending his DYS application off today or tomorrow ... I've got my fingers crossed. It sounds so helpful.

Mia

Mia,

Im glad that there seems to be some positive "wheels in motion". Your school sounds pretty proactive, which Im starting to learn is not as common everywhere. (which is such a disservice).

Oh, regarding the handwriting; I just have to add that my dd7 had the worlds worst penmanship! It would drive me nuts, being the anal perfectionist that I am! It was horrible. The problem with dd is that she would think faster than she could write and did not care AT ALL how it looked on paper. We still had problems with her handwriting last year in 1st grade! Finally, a light went on and she's improved 10-fold. Her 2nd grade teacher is big on neat writing and it has helped dd tremendously. Phew! Im so relieved. Hopefully your sons penmanship improves sooner than my dd's but I honestly wouldn't worry too much! GL!

Trinity,

"It's like saying Antibiotics don't help with infections if there is a strong custom to only allow perscribing the antibiotic at one tenth the effective dose"

Excellent point!

Tammy - your daughter is newly 7 also, isn't she? I wonder if something happens around 7 that makes handwriting easier? My son has also improved 10 fold in the past few months. It was literally like something "clicked". He was horrible last year. It drove me crazy.

So anyway - I totally agree on not worrying too much about penmanship!

Hi Mia,
I would strongly suggest that you (or DS's Dad)insist that they give him the MAP reading test next month along with the Math. It's ok to state that you don't believe that the DRA test was accurate for him on that day because he is reading books at home such as ___________ and _______________. Use the Scolastic link below to find out the level of your son's recreational books, and include this info in the letter. As you see below, his instructional level should be higher than his recreational level. Yeah I'll bet!

Here's a little tidbit about Dra's:


What is the difference between "instructional level" and "independent level"?

The 90-94 percent range represents the student�s instructional level, and it is the instructional level that should be reported (at the end of the grading period). A student�s independent level is the level at which he/she reads with 95-100 percent accuracy, with fluency, and comprehension. A student�s independent level is generally one or two levels lower than his/her instructional level.

That's from http://studata.sandi.net/assessment/DRA_FAQ.asp#Q3

There are more articles about reading level, and you can browse by DRA level here:
http://teacher.scholastic.com/products/classroombooks/browse_level.asp

Practice calm, friendly, confident "insist" body language. Practice your "elevator speech" - drop by, give the speech, and hand them a written copy of your request for his file, in the "I'm confident that I'm making your life easier by handing you this paper" manner. Some schools have even asked the parents to sign a paper saying that they will take responsibility for the social/emotional aspects of a skip. Hey, if that helps them sleep at night!

Lots of us are bossy, and when we try to be un-bossy (or un-overwhelming) we end up as sweet little doormats! So don't go blabbering about studies or statistics, just use every bit of nonverbal body language to "insist" on what is "a reasonable thing for my child's learning." Find the school's mission statement and work that into to your "short, firm, and to the point" elevator speech. Repeat yourself over and over and over.

Perhaps I misread your post, but don't don't don't let them get used to just pointlessly putting you off for no reason. Get used to telling them what you know, and what you need, in a clear, firm, professional manner. You need this information. Why have him strung along when his current placement isn't working? If they give 1st graders MAP reading, give your kid MAP reading and then you can compare apples to apples.

Yes?
Trinity

I'm hoping handwriting clicks! That's not a red button issue for me, though, since he's progressing very well for his chronological age, and spells well.

Trinity:

Thank you for your post! It really was helpful. We asked several times about the reading MAP test ... Hmm. I'm going to have to talk with ex-h. Because we agree with you, and said exactly that to the principal -- If they're willing to do the math now, why put off the reading if we can get more information now? They said there really wasn't anything else they could do, even if he *did* score higher. We'll see. I'll email ex-h and see what he thinks.

I forgot to ask whether the DRA assessment was done in one sitting, because if it was, he likely got bored by the end of 27 short stories and was done! He's certainly reading higher recreational books if I go by the Scholastic list; on the floor in his room are Captain Underpants (which he's been reading independently since last winter!), The Boxcar Children, and Henry Huggins by Beverly Cleary. We've also just found the Franny K. Stein books; how funny are those? Sounds like he's reading at his "instructional" level for fun at home, if we go with their DRA. Benj and his dad have been reading "Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH" together; he read a chapter on his own the other day and was able to answer questions about it; that's RL 5.3 on my favorite leveled site:

http://home.comcast.net/~ngiansante/index.html

We pointed that out; I don't think they believe us.

I think we did get our point across, at least somewhat, and I feel better about going forward. They do seem willing to work with us, which is a relief, given the horror stories I hear about some schools. I think they're just patting themselves on the back a little too much with the "we have children like this all the time" attitude.

I'll practice my speaking skills! I was able to on the phone with ex-h the night before the meeting. I was asking him what he'd say if they said x, and when he didn't have a good answer ready, I got to practice mine. :-)

Mia

kimck - Yes, dd turned 7 in late October. Maybe it is an age thing? hehe.

Hi Mia,

I think the "we have children like this all the time speech" is in some pricipal handbook on dealing with informed parents of gifted children.
DD7's kindergarten teacher liked to say there was this child or that child that was doing something "more exceptional". That comment will die off after awhile as your DS gets a little older and they realize he is the real deal. A lot of kindergarten teachers really like to think that all the kids level out by third grade. This is not malicious, they just really beleive it. By the end of first grade they stopped talking about other children when discussing my daughter in terms of what they could supposedly do better.
I do, however, find it somewhat innappropriate that they are discussing another child's performance and abilities with you. I mean, isn't that a really big privacy infringement? I do think they use this as a technique to manage your expectations as a parent, so don't be offended, just stay your course patiently. My best friend's mother-in-law is a retired teacher and she has told me some accepted techniques teachers utilize that would just chap your you know what, but that's another thread.

Our other daughter is in kindergarten and we are dealing with similar sorts or issues concerning the teacher. I haven't even approached the principal at this point because it would be a waste of my time. The policy in our school district is that they really don't even want to have a serious conversation with you till the CogAt results are in around the middle of third grade.

I am glad to hear they are taking some action and as they get to know your son and his abilities, maybe they will do more. It sounds like you are doing an excellent job advocating and the members of this board seem to have come through with some pretty strong advice.
My biggest challenge in advocating for my children is patience. In a meeting I know I have to stay calm, rational and professional, which is a real challenge for me when dealing with a teacher who is just not getting it. But I know once I show annoyance the meeting immediately becomes counterproductive.
One of my friend's DD6 was taking an evaluation for admittance to a private school and solved a pretty advanced math problem for her age. The next question was explain how you got your answer. She wrote: "Duh". I really wish that would work for me sometimes!!!!!

Incog