Zia'sMom asked:
What are some practical ways to address the handwriting issue? Has anyone successfully convinced the school to let the child type?

What are people's experiences with a child who is ready to work 2 or 3 years ahead of their age in elementary school, but not ready to do the physical amount of handwriting, or penciling, that a child 2 or 3 years older is expected to do?

Thanks,
Trin

There's DS11's story.
His handwriting was "ugly" but age appropriate in first grade, age 6, summer birthday, so younger than most males in his class by 6 months. In second grade we started to hear complaints that he was writing "one word" answers to his worksheets when the teacher knew that he knew that he was supposted to repeat the the question to start the sentence of the answer. This took place on worksheets that were geard for 5th graders, becasue, although they have no gifted program, the school started a quiet experiment to keep 10 strong reader boys together. Note that all of these boys except my DS had been heldback before entering kindergarten, so they were over a year older, but no one was talking about that. They didn't tell me about their little plan. He was in the top reading group, which seemed normal to me. He was reading "Harry Potter" at home. While I was grateful that he was being challenged with harder books, and proud that he was the teacher's "lifeline" during class discussions, I was very unhappy about the beating his self esteem was taking because his handwriting was now a wee-bit below average for his age, and markedly below average for his peer group. The teacher, who cared deeply about him, was of the mind set that "advanced in one area, means advanced overall" and "He can do it somedays, so why can't he do it every day, if only he would try a bit harder." Soon the meetings started, as the school suspected ADHD, and focused on "immaturity" and "spoiled" while I think he was both bored with the "thinking stuff" and overwhelmed with the demands of the skills.

I call it "Great Big Head supported by teeny-weeny Neck." with the inflection borrowed Robin Williams' Genie, who complained of, "Phenomenal cosmic powers--teeny-weeny living space.

So, we were introduced to the world of "Asynchronous Development" but still, even after getting the IQ/Acheivment scores that got us into YSP, didn't have the word for it, or understand just how gifted gifted could be. And I started bribing him to learn to touch type.

I'm dredging this all up, Zia'sMom, to show that even though we can appreciate that a child is many different ages, the teachers tend to have a "2nd graders must develop neatly spaced printing" and "3rd graders must learn cursive and memorize their times tables" way of looking at children. A child who is not on the expected timetable may be looked at as a child who has "something wrong with them." My child picked up this (not subtle) vibe and internalized his teacher's opinion of himself. In my experience for kids who are highly asynchrounous in their development, it is a good idea to talk to the child about this, and compare their various developments to their friends, because the dissonance of "I know that I understand the book better then my classmates because I always know the answer during discussion time, but all my papers come back with "x" and baby handwriting while the other kid's papers have "c" and long beautiful handwriting. Zia'sMom, I hope you are shaking you head with pity and feeling confused about what that must be like. Lots of PG kids are advanced socially, emotionally and small motor skills-wise, and then the accelerations are smooth. I hope your boy is like that.

Does your son touch type? How many words/minute? My guess is that 35 is the lower limit for being able to use typing as a tool. DS11 didn't reach that level until he was 9, and then he quickly zoomed to about 90 wpm, thanks to a new interest in Runescape. When he started 5th, and then 6th grade at his new school, I insisted that they let him type EVERYTHING, except math. I explained that for him to show the teachers who he is, he must be allowed to keyboard. We are allowing him to bring the family laptop to school so that this is less of an imposition. It took a month, but they see my point. At age 11, he is mature enough to start is "answer" sentences with the question, although it still seems "dumb" to him, even when penciling, but he is still likely to "leave well enough alone" when penciling while when he has a keyboard, he will wax poetic. ((wonder where he gets it from? wink))

In 3rd and 4th the teachers allowed him to use the classroom computer at times, and would have provided him with an alphasmart if he was willing. To DS11, using an alphasmart would have been an admission of having a disability, as well as socially difficult. Those old 2nd grade wounds are still close to the surface. As late as last summer, DS was telling me that his handwriting was "fine" and that he didn't need to use the computer. Thankfully that attitude has melted away, and now he says just as forcefully that he "must use the keyboard."

Other accomidations I have heard of kids getting include, a notetaker, a scribe, dictating their report into a tape recorder. In some families they parent sets a timer, and after X minutes, specified by the teacher as how much time she wants devoted to homework, the parents signs the sheet and demands that the child leave the desk. This is a good alternative because it avoids the slippery slope of "Ma, I don't want to do this homework because I already know the material." 15 minutes of busywork isn't going to ruin anyone's day, and doesn't set up an adversarial "How dare you give my child hours and hours of senseless homework!" between parent and teacher.

I am quite aware of families that have radicle acceleration and wouldn't dream of asking for any accomidation of any kind. They believe that the child will do best in the long term if they are treated exactly like everyone else in their new grade. I think so much depends on the child, this would have meant misery for us, but this approach seems appealing for those whoes kids can pull it off.

Smiles,
Trinity

I'm still really curious, Zia's Mom -
Is your son typing, if so, at what WPM,
and if you had to "go without accomidation" - would you still want him in 2nd grade?
I'm sure it's the right choice for some kids. Doing 2nd grade level work at 5 is probably somewhat common for homeschooled kids.
Smiles,
Trin

Thanks Dottie and Trinity for so much useful information.
Our son just started the typing program about a little more than a week ago and is typing at about 10 wpm. Keep in mind this is about 10 times faster than he can write. (He is a perfectionist, too.) He really enjoys the program and I suspect we will see that number increase very quickly.

The answer to the question of whether or not we will put him in second grade without special accomodations, is YES!(If our lobbying efforts are successful) We feel so strongly that is where he belongs and learning as much as we have so far, we are driven to be his most vocal advocate.

I am gathering all my thoughts for our big school meeting on Friday. Any final words of wisdom?
I will keep you posted on how it goes.

I will certainly think of you all while I'm in there. This forum has become a great outlet. It is so hard to discuss these real issues with parents who haven't had to travel down this path. Their skepticism and disapproval is hard to mask.

I am hopeful our new school, a private "gifted" school will be one of the few schools attuned to special needs and won't fight too hard with arguments that have no teeth. I unfortunately believe that to be a pipe dream and expect to come out having done battle. But victorious, none the less!

I have to chime in here, speaking with my Occupational Therapist hat on. My own GT son does not have handwriting problems - but I work with so many kids who struggle with handwriting. For many of these kids the issue with handwriting lies in underlying impairments that fall in the areas of visual-spatial perception, body awareness, praxis skills, visual-motor integration and other areas of development. While accommodation is appropriate for an older child, my opinion is that a 4 or 5 year old who is not developing handwriting skills, at an age appropriate level, needs to have intervention to remediate this skill as much as possible.

For a GT kid, this means looking at the asynchrony and identifying whether there really even IS a handwriting issue. If the child is age appropriate in handwriting but advanced in many other areas, then accommodate the need for the child to create stories or poems or whatever he wants to do that requires handwriting. Provide a scribe, use keyboarding if they are more efficient at getting their thoughts down, use a recording device for them to dictate, use a dictate computer program, or whatever else works so the child can create without being frustrated.

BUT, if the child is assessed and shows handwriting that is below what is expected for the average child that age, then I personally think that you need to look at intervention. The sooner the better. See a qualified OT for assessment, preferably one that specializes in handwriting and/or sensory integration treatment. Sometimes you can locate an educational specialist who also understands handwriting. There are ways to facilitate skills and decrease anxiety about handwriting.

Just my 2 cents!

Thanks Debbie,
You make a good point. In our case we were told specifically that our son is ahead in his handwriting skills for his age. But, if he grade skips to second, his age-appropriate handwriting will be a hinderance unless we consider special accomodations.

You mention providing a scribe. How does that actually work?

In order to get yourself in the Mediator's Mindset, you can, if you had U.S. pop music drilled into your head as a Teen, replay a "mental clip" from Meatloaf's 'Paradise by the Dashboard life'

"Let me sleep on it"
"Will you love me forever?"
"Let me sleep on it"
"Will you love me forever?"
"Let me sleep on it, I'll give you an answer in the Morning."
"I GOTTA KNOW RIGHT NOW"

((appologies to those that didn't waste their youth on memorizing Rock and Roll songs))
Trinity

((shrug))
It's a classic in it's way.
T

My DS 7 has had handwriting issues during all of Kinder and 1st grade; he also hates to color. It would take him forever to finish up a writing assignment in class, when I know he can make up all sorts of complex and elaborate stories in his head - he just has a problem writing it all down.

In our meeting before the 2006-07 SY came to an end, where we all agreed a grade skip for my son this school year to 3rd grade with 5th grade reading, was the best route for him, our Clark County HG rep brought up his handwriting issues because she's also had the opportunity to work with him for a few weeks during our SENG workshops. She mentioned the HG Program would be willing to donate a laptop for my son's use to the school if they will allow him to just type out his writing assignments. The principal, however, said she wants to see my son try his best at first, and should there really be no improvement, then that's when they will allow him to use a laptop.

I think the principal made a good call regarding this, as she was able to compromise the need for my son to realize that he still needs to try and fit in with his classmates, to do the same work they have to do, and that just because he skipped a grade, he doesn't really get any "special" attention -- with the need to accept alternatives if my son still isn't able to communicate his thoughts well through writing.

KaT -
How many wpm is your son typing? It's great that he has a laptop as a back up, so now I suggest that you make sure he can use it as a tool when the time comes that he is shown to need it.

Personally, I would never be able to give such copious, detailed, thoughtful advice if I had to handwrite every word. As driven as I am to "share" I wouldn't bother if I had to pick up a pen every time - it just wouldn't happen.

I waw away on vacation, and reading my YSP emails on my cell phone. I got the strong urge to respond to one of the emails, and had to use the number pad on the phone. Believe me - it affected my response, in length, level of detail, and level of irritation that showed through in my writing tone. "Wow," I though to myself, "No wonder my 7 year old gives one word answers on his worksheets even though the teacher keeps critisizing him for not repeating back the question stem, and writing full detailed sentences."

You might want to let your son type his homework, at least. I get the idea of "just like everyone else" and I see it's appeal, but "hello? - is he just like everyone else? No." So how much of a pain in his neck do you want to be?

BTW - did you ever try Handwriting without tears? How did that go? I think that insisting on Handwriting practice is a good thing, I just don't think it's fair to ask him to use it as a tool at this point. Later when he is more mature, and has more of a desire to fit in, there will be time enough for handwriting. Actually this is a terrific question to post on the YSP pgclassroom list. Go sign up, post and intro, and ask away - a lot of people will disagree with me, and that's good.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Hi Trinity,

I got my son one of those Typing Tutor computer softwares, and haven't checked lately what his speed is - but I know he can type fairly well whenever he uses our home PC, and this was backed up by the GATE teacher and his Technology teacher from school.

Never really got a chance to try Handwriting Without Tears. I'm still getting the feel for how the lists work on the YSW, but I will definitely bring this up as a topic.

Thanks much
KaT

I'm glad to hear that his typing is "usable" - still, check his WPM, casually, when you can. It will help you gauge just how much of his effort is into typing, and how much is left for expressing his mind.

Have you signed up for pgparenting email list? If not, send a quick email to your family consultant asking to be added to the email list, and "stand back" - prepare for your inbox to suddenly expand!

Then send a paragraph introducing yourself and outlining your school situation, to the list and ask if anyone has had luck with handwriting.

Smiles,
Trinity

chuckle...carriage returns.

There aren't any real standards, but apparently most schools look for the typing speed to be greater than the handwriting speed before they will allow keyboarding in the classroom. So, for most 8 year olds that would be about 18 wpm or so as handwriting is about 10-14 wpm.

before setting up a practice handwriting regimen, watch your child for signs of pain or discomfort, imbalance or posturing during handwriting tasks. Often they don't realize they are in pain, but you may see them pause now and then to shake the hand or head, shrug the shoulders, shift the balance from one side to the other and so on.

If you see these signs, then reconsider practicing and instead pursue core muscle development, OT for bilateral coordination if necessary...etc.

Handwriting isn't so straight forward as it seems. We decided this summer to give Mite (9) a break from his handwriting. his keyboarding has taken off and now he wants to use a keyboard at school rather than write. He's so relaxed when he keyboards. He pants when he writes.

then he is doing great. Wow!

Has anyone tried teaching cursive writing to their younger kids (starting at age 5 or before)? Schools in many countries teach cursive writing before printing. The theory is that it's easier for little kids to make the loopy shapes of cursive writing than the blocks required to print (think: what were the very first shapes your kids drew: rounded or carefully, deliberately angled?).

My eldest son (age 7) goes to a French immersion school where the kids start cursive writing in kindergarten. Some kid in his class could write his name in cursive in the pre-K year, and Henry was very excited by this and wanted me to teach him. I wrote his name in script and was amazed at how quickly he picked it up (first try).

So his handwriting was gorgeous by early-mid 1st grade. His printing was still pretty ropey then and was pretty much like everyone else's in the class. The kids write very long sentences in cursive, even in 1st grade.

I'd also add that we've found that language immersion schools (some public school districts have these) are great alternatives for bright kids, *especially* if they don't know a word of the language when they start school. Not understanding the language means that 1. they have a challenging classroom environment because they have to **figure out what teacher is saying**, even if it's just "Color the octopus blue." 2. Also, they learn something that could serve them all their lives, and 3. they get extra development in the language areas of their brains.

We didn't try it, but I have heard that this can work well, as the cursive involves gross motor, while the printing involves fine motor that develops later. Typically cursive is the method of choice for longer passages - although personally, I hate reading even my own cursive, so I don't use it. To my eye, it just looks like squiggles - even the cursive in books. I'm sure it's that I've never used it enought to get comfortable with it.

Good for you for finding a way to make school work for your child, and for getting the tool of writing into his life! Yippee!

smiles,
Trinity

That's how I started - cursive from grade 1. If I remember correctly up until 4th grade everything had to be in cursive and after that teachers did not care. So I pretty much stopped using cursive around middle school and never picked it up again :-)