Amidst all the other trouble we are having, DS11 came home friday and said another boy in his class has been shoving him on the playground. Last year, around this time, DS got a 1 day suspension after he shoved this same boy after repeated verbal taunts. ( Both boys rec'd the suspension ).
DS was devastated.
Now he states that his only options are
1. Shoving back, which would get him another suspension.
( Which we are not advocating, just putting it out there).

2. Telling, which is an 11 year old boy's worst nightmare, and he says he would get teased relentlessly.

3. Nothing, and keep getting shoved.

I have talked to the principal. She stated that DS should be letting an adult know and that all of the students know it is not OK to tease someone, so he should not be afraid of reprocussions.
Should I assume that all of the students know that it's not OK to shove, either?

Any Thoughts?

Oh man what a situation. I dk what I would do. Those years 11-13 I think are the hardest. I tell my son 2 wrongs don't make a right, so if someone hits him he shoudn't hit back but to fight back w/his words. I tell him this, but does it work probably not.

Oh and at 11 YES they all know it is not right to shove!!

I recently had a situation where my 14 yo daughter came home with a note that threatened to beat her until her nose entered her brain (nice, huh). I took the note to the principal, told him I expected him to take care of it.

My daughter was made out to be a snitch because my actions were independent of her. You need to step in in such a way as to seem to have found out accidently.

I think there is option #4 and option #5-

#4- Tell your DS to stay in the general proximity of an adult in charge. He doesn't need to tell or go stand right next to that person- but be easily within eyes and ears for a few recesses. After a few days, it is most likely (thought not for sure!) that the bully will get bored and move on. On the same note, he could as a teacher he trusts for a job that needs to be done. I've had students ask me for "detention" to up their cool factor and help them hide from bullies. Cleaning the white board or restacking class books :-)

#5- You could confront the other parent or ask for a parent meeting with the principal. Let them know that this is an ongoing problem and that if it continues, you will file a harassment claim with your school district. If it doesn't stop, then file the complaint.

Ugggh.... I am not at all looking forward to the pre-teen and teenage years. I still get sick to my stomach thinking about this girl who bullied me all through junior high. I guess it would be illegal for you to go to school and give the punk a taste of his own medicine (kidding of course!). I can imagine your frustration.

Of course, children as young as three know that it's not okay to bully others as the principal mentioned. The problem is that this bully could obviously care less about the rules, and to place the burden of controlling such things on an eleven year old child who is being bullied is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

I completely agree with CAMom's #5 suggestion. Perhaps you can start preparing written correspondence confirming your the conversations you have with the principal. Dear Principal _____: Please allow this correspondence to confirm the conversation that I had with you on _______, wherein I informed you that _________ has been physically and verbally harrasing my son, _________. Though you advised that _______ should report such behavior to a teacher without fear of repercussion, it is not repercussion from the school that my son fears. Yada, Yada, Yada....... Request that the principal and/or his staff make a formal investigation into your son's complaint and give you a written report with the results of the investigation. Although, admittedly,I am "that" mom who would probably blow something like this totally out of proportion because of what I went through as a child.

I don't have any words of wisdom to share, I just wanted to say that I am sorry you and your son are having to deal with this. My DS, who is 7, is having to deal with the same thing right now. The only difference is that it is a girl who is bullying him and she is telling everyone at recess that my son is a "loser" and now his "friends" don't want to play with him. She went so far as to push him to the ground today too.

It is so painful to watch our children suffer and have to try to help them make sense of the fact that people can be mean. I guess I just wanted to say that I feel for you and to let you know that you are not alone.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

When did the rules change?? If someone hit you first, you were always allowed to defend yourself, without getting into trouble. How do you teach kids to stand up for themselves??

Fighting isn't the answer to things, especially as the kids grow older, but there is a fine line when your a kid.

Wow, I am not so sure I can be helpful. Bullying was a big problem for me in school. And our DS16, when he was 12-13 had some problems with it..

I know many may disagree with me, but if you are struck, you must defend yourself, even if you get suspended. I am not advocating violence, or striking first. Nor fighting just to fight. But IMHO a young man must learn to stand up to the bullies of the world. For our DS, we gave him boxing lessons with his uncle. (I know nothing about boxing, but his uncle was very good) DS learned self confidence, and learned he could take a punch (Big lesson for him) He now has little issues with bullies, He also never actually had to fight the bully when he was younger. Just by being confident in himself, he was able to stand up to him without it comming to blows. I know boxing may not be the best thing, but when our then DS13 got punched hard enough to make his eyes water and his nose bleed, he learned he was still alive, and he was ok, and he could still fight back. For all the moms, please don't be upset about this old fashioned idea, but again a young man has to learn to stand up for what is right, even if it means a phisical fight. I only wish that in MS and HS, I was taught the same lessons my Stepson recieved from his uncle. Confidence in yourself and what you can do is very important to a young man.

Option 4. (what I used to do) Hide. In the library or at the far corner of the playground...

Cathy, Thats how I got the friends of the library award in middle school. (And I am not kidding)

I really like CAmom's advice! Edwin has a point, too, IMO. I think it's important for kids getting bullied to figure out how to shut the bully down. Or at least figure out a way to circumvent the situation like CAmom's kids did. Smart kids!

Bullies don't go away when the kids grow up....You definately see them in the workplace.....they're just bigger, meaner and uglier!

I was bullied in school and then later in the workplace. I figured out how to shut it down and I never had to hit anyone, luckily. A lot of it ended up being *posturing*! Interestingly, when someone gets aggressive, getting back in their face with a *bring it!* attitude seems to resolve things really quickly.

I have to admit, though, if my child kept coming home saying the same kid was shoving them on the playground, I'm pretty sure I'd be telling them to shove back.........

At my high school as a kid, we had a very strict policy that both parties got suspended in any physical altercation, no matter who started it. I was a smart gifted kid... I *spit* a very nasty spit on a bully who wouldn't leave me alone.

JBR, no advice, just sympathy, for you and for your little guy. I hope tomorrow will be a better day. Can you have some extra snuggle time at home for a while?

We had a problem like this, too, this week, and my kids aren't even in school (a 10 yo boy at our homeschool playgroup decided to thump 7 yo Harpo's head on the floor, because he didn't like his new glasses--but 5yo Groucho sailed in and got a few good punches in before 10 yo boy beat him up too--I wasn't there because it was my turn to clean the kitchen at the community centre our group rents, and I assumed that one of the other mothers would be keeping an eye on the kids, but unfortunately not).

I hope you get some help from the principal or the teacher--it just feels lousy, lousy, lousy when somebody is picking on your child. I'll be thinking 'bout you--

peace
minnie

I just thought I should mention that at our school that would be considered an assault and grounds for suspension, too.

At the school I teach at now, we would also consider it assault! However at the time, the handbook only stated "physical contact"... nobody wanted to argue the semantics. She got suspended and I did not!

Let me see what I can address here..

We have ALWAYS told our kids to stand up for themselves, and to fight back if neccessary.

Last year DS got so sick of this boy's teasing he shoved him, and the boy hit his head on the concrete and got a nosebleed. We made him write a letter of apology and contacted the parents to take it to his house. They never followed through with us. I have a feeling speaking to them again would be pointless.

In the meantime, I had other parents calling me to congratulate DS because this other boy causes so much misery. However, in this instance, the other boy only verbally provoked, not physically, so we had to make that difference clear to DS.

I have to respectfully disagree with the options of "hiding" or staying near an adult, I feel DS should be able to freely use recess as he wants to.

DS is one of the biggest kids in the class, but is very sensitiv e and has a huge heart. His fear is not fighting, but of getting suspended and/or getting teased.

I would like to tell him to punch the kid in the face, honestly, and I would proudly go an get him for his suspension. But in light of us trying to get other issues resolved at school, I'm not sure how beneficial that would be to us at this time .

Here's a second-hand suggestion:

Someone I know told her son who was being bullied that it was okay to fight back. So what did he do? The very next time he saw the bully, he marched right up and told the kid "My mom said that if you push me, I can push back!"

The bully freaked out a little, asked the mom if that was really true, and then left the kid alone!

I think you can file that example in the "sometimes you just have to get back in their face" pile with what 'Neato said. This was also my personal experience.

Finding a friend to tell the bully to stop helps, too. Bullies look for lone individuals. Even two people are usually more than a bully wants to deal with. Have your son find other loners and they can band together to protect one another. Chances are incredibly good that no one will need to fight anyone if the bully realizes that none of the loners are actually alone.

Love the suggestions, but I think IRL we are dealing with a master manipulator, who knows just how far to push ( no pun intended) without getting in trouble. This evening I tried to explain how to "get in this kids face" without becoming physcical ( or spitting, CAmom ) and he said if he threatened the bully, rather than backing down, the bully would come back with "Oh yeah, make me" or something equally original. DS is just not equipped at this point to pull this one off, but we will work on it. You are correct, Kriston, that DS is kind of a loner, I am really thinking of observing a reccess or two in the next couple of days.

Does the bully pick on your son alone, or does he have other targets?

If he has other targets, perhaps your son's best move is to stand up for one of the other kids being bullied. (Verbally. No violence. Just a "Hey, stop that!" And then walk with the other bullied kid out of the situation. Two people can walk away a lot more easily than one can.)

This demonstrates strength to the bully, earns the respect and gratitude of the kid being bullied, and starts to form a band to combat this kid's nastiness. Then the two kids stand up for the next kid, and so on.

Honestly, it's what I did as a kid, and it's the quickest way I know to stop bullying.

While I think this tactic usually works with most bullies, I don't think it'll work here. Because your DS and this boy hae already gotten into a physical conflict, we know the bully will take it that far. It seems like encouraging your son to get back in his face will only inflate the situation with this kid more.

Because there's history already, I think you need to consider getting another adult involved from school. It doesn't have to be the principal, but a trusted teacher, school counselor or whatever. I think it's gone too far for your son to solve it on his own.

DS12 had one of these boys in his life last year - a major reason that we changed schools was that the school's resoponse was that DS should 'practice being the bigger man.'

There's one difference between (one) private school and our public school. Our public school had a bully-prevention policy, and came around to each classroom to teach the children that if you act as an audience for a bully - then you are responsible. Wow! Our Middle School has any anonymous email link were anyone can report bullying - without being named.

Here are some ideas -
1) Tell. then ask for a anti-bully program to be presented to the whole class without naming any names, encouraging the kids to stick up for each other.
2) Practice the fine art of body language. Have good natured'hairy eyeball' contests at your house. Everyone has to know how to make 'impressive' body language.
3) Talk to the teacher and see if they can institute a 'physical seperation' policy, where the kids are basically not allowed within 10 feet of each other. This is so much more workable than trying to catch a suble kid in the act.
4) Here's some advice from a friend, that DS12 wanted nothing to do with, but maybe it will work for your son:

When the kid pushes or does something your son doesn't like, your son can use a very loud voice and say: "Hey - Stop Pushing Me!" or "Hey - that's mean talk. I don't like mean talk."

This gives the teacher a chance to come over and say to your son, "No yelling in the classroom, use an inside voice." which 'proves' that your son isn't tattling (since he got 'spoken' to) but it may scare the bully, and will certianly raise the awareness of the teacher. You son has stated his opinion forcefully and not resorted to physical violence- which is good, even if he 'get's in trouble' for yelling.

Prepare your son for the teacher correcting him, as he needs to turn his body language submissive and say: "I'm very sorry teacher, I know I shouldn't loose control and yell." The trick is that he doesn't plead his case here, so he can't get in trouble with peers for tattling. If you prepare him that the teacher will be 'correcting him on the outside, but taking notes against the bully for the future on the inside' he might be able to pull this off.

Although my son didn't ever use this directly, he did something similar that makes me think that this might work. (Age 10, 6th grade, private school)
DS: Mom, A boy tattled on me for swearing today.
Me: What happened?
DS: Well, the boy threw a rock that went 2 inches from my eye. I was just standing by the wall.
Me: Oh? (trying not to freak out entirely)
DS: I said the f-word. It just came out.
Me: I would have said a lot more than that!
DS: So then the boy goes running to the teacher, 'Teacher, he said the F-word!' So the teacher asked what happened, and I told about the rock, and that was that.
Me: He told on you for swearing? After he threw a rock at your eye? That is so weird!
DS: yeah.

So the next time someone sayed that my kid is too immature to be gradeskipped, I said a little prayer of gratitude that my baby has both his eyeballs. Of course one major motivation (sad to say) for parents to shell out the big bucks for private school is for kids who are a bit too immature for public school.

Actually, I wonder if teaching your son to swear isn't an good idea. If yelling seems too babyish, perhaps a few well practiced phrases will get everyone's attention with only a minimum of cost. It's a lot easier to give the 'hairy eyeball' if one is saying 'Get you ####ing hands off of me, you #####.' Much much better than punching.
Love and More Love,
Grinity

Grinity, you are a gem.

Yes, Grinity, you are!

"That is so weird!" ((chuckling....I could think of another term, too!....more chuckling))

Does that fall under Darwinism?

My brother and I tried something similar in high school (though not swearing, because the person who was [verbally] bullying my brother was one of the teachers); we spent hours picking choice bits out of the OED for my bro to use on him ("yes, Mr. Teacher, I think everyone would agree that you are indeed a caitiff and that your lecture was particularly adiaphorous today"). The teacher was so pompous that he wasn't going to admit that he didn't know the words, so he wasn't ever any more than perplexed and wary (we didn't actually want to hurt his feelings), and my brother had the inner glow of knowing that he'd gotten off a nifty, and felt like he'd restored some balance in the cosmos.

PS: adiaphorous=inessential, immaterial
caitiff=base, mean, despicable wretch; miserable person, one in a piteous case

I love that! Resourceful!

LOL love the suggestions!
Unfortunately, bully is in same class as DS, despite the issues we had last year. Seems that enought OTHER parents requested that their child not be in class with him that he ended up with my son. Not sure if the 10 foot rule would work there. We are working with DS, trying to build confidence in both the fact that he is so much bigger than this kid, and that he can "use words" to deflect some of the bullying. DH is a proponent of yelling, "Leave me alone, or there is going to be trouble" Then if the kid rats, DS can just say " I told him he was going to get in trouble if he didn't leave me alone" and Bully can't prove DS was threatening him.
The principle did take DS aside in her office to hear what he had to say. Poor guy, DS told her that if he were in her shoes, he wouldn't bother talking to bully, because he doesn't want to get picked on. ( BTW can we get shorthand for bully? DB, maybe?.. but the D is definitly NOT for darling? ) Our big meeting with principal, teacher, counselor is on the 18th, so I am hoping to see what was done about this then. I am planning on addressing it under the "causes for DS's anxiety" file and see where I get.

Sometimes bullies can be befriended. Many are lonely or dealing with other issues. It is part of the bag of tricks.

I read an article last year about how important it is to empower the child that is bullied and highlighted the book Bullies to Buddies by Izzy Kalman. Disclaimer: I haven't read it yet but the magazine blurb was intriguing.

I go into Mama-Bear mode when I feel my children are picked on for whatever reason and while my approach works in the younger grades I know it won't be advantageous as my children get older. I am always on the look out for other ways to teach and encourage them to take care of it on their own. I am a very non-confrontational person when it comes to myself. I suspect I am that way because I never learned how to resolve conflict on my own.

Well Shari I am off to speak to the teacher about teasing!!!
UGH always something!!!