I'm sure by now this seems like beating a dead horse but everytime I think we've wrapped ourselves around a course of action, everything changes.

I asked awhile back about grade skipping and got lots of good advice. Our school district has skipped kids before, but never done a multi grade. We've had a few discussions about having DS6 start next year in 3rd, rather than 1st. They seem to be coming around to the idea although his IEP won't be for another couple of months. Today I had parent conferences for my kids and the gifted teacher told me that she had written a recommendation that my son be grade skipped to 4th next year. Her reasoning was sound but skipping 3 years at once?

Has anyone gone through this sort of radical acceleration? I admit, i'm freaked out all over again!

I haven't done it but I'd be hesitant. Think about your 6 year old in class all day (including gym and recess) with 10 year olds. And, you might consider his writing skills. Is he mature enough to sit that long? Mine is only skipped a year but because of his summer birthday, he is 23 months younger than the other kids. The teachers report a definite gap in maturity there and his handwriting is certainly not up to par. My thought would be to skip your son to 3rd and ask for subject acceleration any place he needs it. Not to be negative and I don't really have basis for this, but I think I'd look at it carefully.

They indicated to me that regardless of how many grades he skips, he will pullout for PE and recess with the first grade class. Even in 4th, he'll still have to be accelerated for math. He has participated with the 3rd and 4th grade classes this year for language arts and science. Both teachers have reported that he does fine in their classes. They've gotten around the issue of writing this year largely by allowing him to type his work. His keyboarding is much better than his penmanship!

I agree with Squirt. Start with 3rd and see what happens. You're not ruling out radical acceleration later if needed. The 'holes' your DS will need to fill may be enough to keep him challenged in the beginning - and you can also do subject acceleration as needed. It's great that your district is so open, but sheesh...

Yeah, there are gaps--which I wouldn't worry about--and then there are GIANT, GAPING HOLES!

Do YOU think he's really mastered 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade as much as he needs to?

Most people do multiple skips rather than one giant leap, and that seems more sensible to me. I'd certainly be wary of such a big step!

Yes, there are certainly worse things than being offered too much challenge or too much acceleration.

As of today, he is in 3rd through 6th all day with the exception of lunch and recess which he does with Kindergarten. He's already passed the year end tests for 1st-4th for NM standards. The NWEA places him in 5th in all subjects. Because of a December B'day he is one of the oldest kids in his class. So a 2 year skip would put him at about a year and a half behind his class mates. I'm fairly sure that he will do fine skipping to 3rd but his schedule will be the same as it is now, pullout for every core subject. The GT reasoning with moving him to 4th is that he'd be able to spend a large portion of his day in his homeroom and not have to move around anywhere near as much.

Oh, if only I had a crystal ball........

Well, then maybe it's not so bad. It's not as if he's really in 1st grade, you know? He's really in 3rd at least, so 4th grade wouldn't be a stretch.

Sorry to change my tune, but I had forgotten that he wasn't *really* a 1st grader. That changes everything!

The elementary school is going to accomodate him as long as they can. They go through 6th grade. They've already told me that they can work with the middle school to get him 7-8th grade math. He'll be taking that with the gifted teacher next year. For all of his other subjects he should be fine for at least two more years. After that? Not one clue.

I'm leaning very hard toward a 2 year skip, 3 just seems like too much. If we need to, he can always skip again in mid year to 4th or skip 4th the following year. Somehow that just seems more reasonable although I find it funny calling any of this reasonable when my DS is 6!

Not only do you have an amazing son, but you have an amazing school as well. So nice to read about a pro-active school that truly cares about his individual needs.

Our school is exactly the opposite of most schools. They have catered to DS6 in every possible way. FDS9 on the other hand has a learning disability and it's like pulling teeth! Go figure?

Oh - and as I think I've mentioned before, you're amazing, too!

Hi Shari,
My thinking is that starting in 3rd is fine, but if the GT notices that he can have a less disruptive day by starting in 4th - I say 'Go For It.' He has been doing most of his subjects in 3rd or higher this year, so moving to 4th might be natural. Perhaps you can list him as a 3rd grader 'assigned to the 4th grade homeroom' so you can keep him in this amazing school longer.

Academically it sounds like things are fine, as they will keep moving him to 'make it fit,' but it seems to me that socially he might have a better chance of enjoyable social interactions if you minimize the disruption to his day.

DS12 got to start the school year with the class he was going to spend the year with, and he really was very grateful for the experience, having skipped a month into 5/6th grade. "Wow, the teachers spend the first few days telling you exactly what they want from you this year - that's great information to have!"

BTW - I think you are unnescessarily scaring yourself by calling this a 3 grade jump. If his academics were at 3rd and 4th grade level this year, and the teachers though he fit in well, then I wouldn't call it a grade skip at all, just a formalization of the process that has already begun. Or have I missed something?

Our family has only dealt with a 'summer birthday + single grade skip' and yes, it's not enough. I've heard amoung some of the Young Scholar Parents that the 'third skip is the charm.'

((shrugs)) either way, if you are willing to stay flexible - you've won.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

My son is currently in a montessori school where he skipped kindergarten. His class is comprised of 1st and 2nd graders. His teacher has placed him w/the 2nd graders. It has been nice to get a taste of what it is like to skip grades. The work is not an issue. However, Peter would tell me the kids make fun of his age (5) and make fun of his "big writing" and that he has no friends. So in our case we have learned that it is not good socially to skip grades. He was so ecstatic when he turned 6 but then quickly realized well the other kids will be turning 7 then. He is the youngest in the class place w/the oldest kids.

We will be switching to public in sept and Peter will be placed in 1st grade all over again. I think about skipping and think, well if our kids are grades ahead say 3+, well then that ends the debate for me. I think well skipping one year won't help academically and skipping more than 1 will not be good socially, so I think , well just put him where he is "supposed" to be and we will get outside help for him or hope he can get extra work at school. I try to think back to what it was like for me in school and being a very late bloomer I would have had a very hard time socially if I myself skipped. I was offered to skip 8th grade but declined. I think thank God I declined and imagine it was more than one grade. I would have had no friends for sure. I am thinking of signing Peter up for online courses to fill the accademic void anyone do this????

What are the teachers doing about this bullying behavior on the part of the classmates? If they're allowing it to go on, then you have a bigger problem with the school than your DS not fitting in!

Why is your DS's age even an issue? Why do his classmates even know how old he is?

Have you arranged playdates with the older kids? Does he share interests with any of the kids that he could build on? Does he try to hang out with the most popular kids--who are most likely to reject him!--or does he attempt to make friends with the "fringe kids" who don't have a lot of friends themselves?

A lot of fitting in socially has to do with technique!

As for this:


No single solution is effective for every child. Some people do not do well socially with a grade skip, just as some kids do not do well socially without one. The more cliqueish the group of kids, the harder it will often be for a younger child to break in. But there are usually ways to improve the situation. Certainly the bullying should be addressed!

Welcome dear!
You certianly are between a rock and a hard place. My thinking as I was reading your post was - why bother to send him to school at all? Why not homeschool if there is NO chance of him progressing academically at school?

I am a big fan of establishing enough parental leadership with your child that you are in a position to 'demand' challenging work be done after school, but to be honest, some kids are too exhausted when they come home to do more.

I would certianly not advise 'riding out' this year. I would use it as a chance to learn, learn, learn about parenting your unique child. I would sign him up for many activities with age peer and with older kids so that you can see how he interacts with other children of various ages. Unfortunatly, small private schools can be a social nightmare because the pool of kids is just too small to find someone to 'click with.' We found this with our son, now aged 12, who spend two years in a private school that were great academically but a total loss socially, and my son is very social. We moved him to public 8th grade, and he's having a ball socially, and learning a lot, although perhaps a bit underchallenged in the 'organizational skills' department. So he's with the same age group, but having a very different social experience.

I would encourage to read 'Genius Denied' because it has the actual number on kids' experiences with gradeskips.

I would also like to address the 'only one skip isn't enough, and several is too much socially.' I hate to see folks taking this position, because flexibility is really the key to grade placements. So a single skip might be a good start, and a child might go with an older group for certian subjects, and in years to come additional full skips might occur.

One possibility for now is to request that your child be placed back with his agemates at the Montessori, and try that on for size. See if he makes more friends. Again, in small schools, the character of each grade may vary wildly. Ask your son what he thinks would work for him. I have experienced that the teacher sets the tone for how each child is treated. Another possible thing to try is to put him with the 3rd and 4th graders now at the Montessori and see if the older kids are more mature about having a 'little buddy' around. Sometimes there is too much jealousy with the kids who are just one year older.

I like the idea of taking classes in practicing social skills.

Whatever you decide, we are here for you to talk to. Grade skips kind of stink, compared to a classroom of agemates with similar learning readiness levels. For us, the hour drive each way plus two parents working was 'too much for our family' and staying with agemates caused too much behavioral and underachievement problems, so that left a single gradeskip with tracked Math as a 'least worst option.' For now, it's working, even though DS12 has those 'too high to measure' IQ scores.

Just some thoughts....

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Tracey... I sent you a private message, click on the blinking letter at the top.

Hi Kriston,
You are right about having a bigger problem with the school.
I have pretty mich given up at this point and trying to get through the rest of the year. The teacher tells me he has friends etc. I know my son can't make this stuff up. The teacher is also the owner of the school. She is running the school and teaching 3 different grades. I think it is impossible she prob doesn't have much of a clue what is going on.
This kids have bdays in school so age is a common topic in the class. I am not sure about who is is being rejected from or how he is trying to make friends. Lately he tells me he has gotten user names of others who play poptropica. So he does have video games in common like nintendo DS etc. The writing I think is a big issue. He can't write "nice" like the older kids. I mean his writing can be really really messy. That is easy thing for the older kids to make fun of.
I agree skipping may be fine for some kids. My son is not "emotionally" ahead. But just last night he told me he finished his 3rd grade phonics book and the teacher told him she wouldn't give him the 4th grade book because he jumps ahead. So what do I do now? He flies though the books and now gets yelled at for it. UGH!! yes I have major school problems! Any advice on how to handle this?

A teacher/owner who is unaware of the way kids are treating one another is a big, big problem in my book. I'm not saying that a teacher is wholly responsible, because sometimes kids are sneaky and mean to one another. But I'm guessing many of these comments are taking place within the classroom because of the context of them. That's a culture of bullying.

Yes, I suspect something like K-12 would be very useful in your situation!

Thank You for the reply Grinity, I am new to this board so trying to figure it all out. Funny you mention homeschool, I joke around to family that I will have to homeschool. I did find out in NYC we can only legaly homeschool for 1/2 a day.
Yesterday he came home and told me I would have to order the 4th grade phonics book since the teacher told him she would not order it since he is going through the books too fast. I was just so sad hearing this, just makes me want to cry. As you mentioned stuck between a rock and a hard place. I am glad you mentioned small private school too. There is one I was thinking about very small need IQ 130+ to get in. I am worried about the social aspect of such a small school like you had mentioned. It is far from us too, so that would also be a burden as you mentioned. The class he is is now is comprised of 1st and 2nd graders. I thought about sending him back down to kindergarten but worried that may cause other problems. I like the description "unique" child, I usually say he is an anomaly, "unique" sounds nicer LOL. We will try the gifted public in Sept. I dk what to expect from them but honestly am already expecting problems. My head is in a million places right now SORRY!! It is finally nice to speak to others who understand. Your DS must be something else w/too high to measure IQ scores!! Mine is not that high.

I know she is not really aware because he also tells me some bring there nintendo ds's to school and play them behind her back. He wanted to bring his as well. So that is not a good sign. We will switch to public in sept. That will bring more problems I am sure.

I don't believe it's true that you can only homeschool half the day. The 900 hours listed here as required is pretty standard nationally for a full year of school.

Here's a link to the law:
http://www.hslda.org/laws/analysis/New_York.pdf

Beware of "hearing" about the laws and customs for homeschooling in your area. It's best to get it directly. There are a LOT of misconceptions out there!

Tracey,

I was skipped three times in three different districts.

I was crushed when I was put back in with my age peers when we moved.

The bullying will probably occur no matter what with his age peers because he is so different. I used to carry around my books and the teasing was merciless. Can you imagine being in 7th grade and a new kid in the school and carrying around, "The Physics of Telescope Mirror Design?" or going to the library to read reference books during lunch because that is all you have to read to stimulate your mind? I had less of it when I was skipped.

When skipping is presented to kids, as it was to me, as a curriculum decision - the issue was, "Do you want to read an adult book every day or a child's book?" and "Do you want to do Algebra or 2 digit multiplication? and "Do you want to learn Physics or do recess?" and "Do you like 4th grade math or 6th grade math" ( after a pullout) - its an easy choice.

Ok, that is totally pathetic! Order the 4th grade phonics book and explain what a 'backhanded compliment' is and take the position (no matter how difficult that is) that she is actually impressed with him and pleased, but expressing it weirdly. Vent here about how sad it is, but don't let on to DS or you'll convinse him he's a 'poor me.' ((Read Sylvia Rimm for more on this.))

I didn't mean that ALL small private schools are bad socially. I meant that some (like maybe your current one) are. If there are only 3 other kids at the school, but they are great kids who have fun together then it's 'enough' - right? I lot of this depends on the teacher to validate each child and set the right tone....

OK, so I have a question -
Does your current Montessori have an older classroom? Or is his group the oldest?

I think that the most important thing to do right now is to keep reading and keep posting and get used to the idea that your son is normal 'for him' and deserves a situation that is good for him socially and academically. You can do this! It will take a while.

Love and More LOve,
Grinity

LOL - my DS certianly is 'something else' and I've very proud of him. But unfortunatly, too high to measure IQ scores are 'not that high' these days - the tests putter out right at the 3rd standard deviation. My son is also quite high in some areas and on the low side of average in other areas, so if the test had more 'ceiling room' on his high areas, he would have had a chance to have a higher 'Full Scale' score. Thankfully the Davidson YSP doesn't require that a child be at the 3rd Standard Deviation all across the board, because it recognises the limitation of the tests. Even the folks who make the IQ tests freely admit that they aren't designed to be that accurate at that part of the tail. I believe that this led them to create modern tests that basically stop at 150. When I grew up, I heard about IQ scores of 180 and 200. Although one can use a particular outdated test to get that kind of score nowadays, this isn't standard practice.

Anyway this is a technical issue, but can be confusing to compare a child's scores with older family member's scores - our internal push to deny that our child might really be 'that' different will tend to exploit this confusion. We are all sort of wading our way through the mess, grateful for those moments when the clouds part and the sun shines in.

Traceyquns, I'm so glad you are here with us. You sound 'just like me' when my son was your age, but I was alone with it racing around and around in my head.

Smiles,
Grinity

Had an interesting discussion with the gifted coordinator at DS' school yesterday. She is the one that is advocating a three grade skip for my son. She knows i'm having a very hard time wrapping my head around the idea. Yesterday she told me to consider my son from the perspective of coursework and not grades. She asked me if there weren't any grades K-6 and kids just moved along at the pace they performed would it be an issue? I said "Of course not, that would be the perfect situation". To which she replied "so you're just hung up on the label, 4th grade". I had to agree. She gave me the socialization speech from the other side, that he can interact with his agemates at recess and in afterschool activities like soccer, karate etc. She laughingly reminded me that for the most part he doesn't like time with his agemates except on the playground. Once again I was forced to agree. She showed me his proposed schedule for next year. He would be in 4th grade for all core subjects except math. He could participate in enriched studies for language arts and would be pulled out for math to 6th everyday. In addition because of the way the scheduling works, he can have lunch and recess with the 1st grade so he would have some time with his agemates. His math class would take place while the 4th grade is at lunch.

When I brought up the future and the fact that this would put him in high school at 11, she laughed and said she'd be surprised if he wasn't ready for high school at 9. She said that the speed which he moved through material was amazing and wouldn't be at all surprised to find that he needed a few more skips before we were through. Then she quietly said that she didn't think the high school(there's only one)would be able to give him what he will need at that point and that he would probably require some sort of alternative program of homeschooling, tutors, mentors etc.

She told me that my son truly loves to learn. She's afraid that by not "feeding the beast" his attitude will change and he'll sour on school. He really does love it, drove me crazy over Christmas break about when he vould go back. When I sat him down and talked to him about it, he was all for the idea. He is definitely not lacking in confidence. He's not intimidated by older kids at all and is quite willing to answer questions in regards to why he's in the upper classes.

So, I'm in need of opinions here. Is it just the inability to let go of my picture of "childhood" that's making this so hard?

Having a childhood means "just let him be a kid," right? Doesn't that mean that children should have the opportunity to be happy and do things they enjoy without too much pressure? Which environment would be less stressful/ more enjoyable for your son? Not everyone has the same "childhood" and we need to feel like we have the permission to give our kids the "childhood" that's the best fit for them.

Around here, childhood means spending hours sititng in one place reading Conan Doyle, building with Legos, playing with dolls, spending an hour working on a Bach or Mozart piece, riding bikes, hanging around in the pasture holding chickens, and studying the Mesozoic era for a paleontology competition. Hey, it's not the childhood I had, but it's the one that is right for my kids and these are the activities that make them happy.

Maybe the childhood that would make your son happiest would include 6th grade math and hanging around with older kids?

It seems like you have to solve each problem as it comes up and not worry too much about the future. There will always be options for solving the next problem and the folks on this board will be happy to help give you you ideas for dealing with each stage.

I guess what I wonder about most is if he is happy with the older kids in the classes he is already in. Do they seem like a better social fit than in the younger grade? Is he accepted by them and allowed to participate?

I also know that you have many other kids in the household and I would want to make sure that his skipping wouldn't painfully disrupt another kid's status in his/her world. If this might be a problem, I would try to address it before the skip and see if there are ways to minimize any disruption.

I was skipped out of a class that I loved into a class that shunned me so I am very cautious about the social aspects of a skip. But it sounds like he may be being eased into the new situation more seamlessly than I was and I suspect that makes a big difference.

He is participating in some 3rd grade classes this year so most of the kids he'd be with next year are kids that he already knows. All of his teachers have said that he does fine with the older kids. He hasn't been bullied or picked on at all.

I don't have any kids in the grades in question next year. I have an FS who would be going into 5th but chanses are he'll be back with his bio family prior to school next year. So as it stand now, DS6 would be my only child in elementary as my 12yo moves up to middle school next year.

One day at a time! I'm with Dottie: be thrilled his teacher and the staff are on board and go with it! There are always ways to slow things down if you worry that they're too fast. Travel! Homeschool stuff he'd never get in school! Special programs!

Keep your eyes open now for opportunities like that, but worry later. Plenty of time to worry later! Now, celebrate that your son's teacher gets it! Hooray!

Upon entering sixth grade, my daughter now cares about friends. She was in many groups and had friends, but really did not connect when she was young. Now, this is very important for her. This is a total change at eleven. She is still an exceptional student and in accelerated classes. She focuses quite a bit of time on band (her new passion).

She is already young (with a June birthday), but she is turning into a teen and very interested in this process. It is strange to see such "normalcy" in her and she probably has done way more reading on the subject than other girls in her grade level.

Well, G3, I kind of am undoing a big skip by homeschooling other topics. He's taking Arabic, a creativity class, and a very focused art class that he'd never take if he weren't homeschooling.

It's easier than you think to do. Granted, it doesn't exactly undo the skip. He's still way ahead in everything. But he is learning other things that keep him going and growing besides the standard curriculum, and it does slow him down somewhat.

The standard curriculum isn't sacred. There's a lot of things not included in it that are fascinating.

you're probably right that I don't think I'd wait until the end of high school to introduce these things. I'd try to weave some learning speed bumps into the time between now and the end of high school. Lots of foreign language--probably more than one!--lots of music, art, science and history that he wouldn't get in school, etc. I think sometimes spending extra time in high school through a planned deacceleration is smart, since there's a lot there that is potentiallhy interesting and challenging. If there's a strong middle school with lots of opportunities I might even have the child stay there longer.

I really do think it's possible. It might not work for everyone. You know your kids. But it's absolutely possible to do!

I agree with Kriston. At home we have the opportunity to "go wide" in a way that the schools simply cannot. I also agree that there really isn't any undoing a skip. Homeschooling is, in a sense, removing the child from the idea of skips and grade levels. (If you can't remove the skip from the child, you can at least remove the child from the skip -- or something like that.)

Disclaimer: My kids have never been in school, and so haven't been skipped, but they're not labeled with any particular grade level and can work at various grade levels depending on what they need.

Ds will be heading to school for the first time in the fall, though, so I continue to read about how you all are meeting kids' academic needs in the school systems. Don't yet know how we're going to manage that.

Good point about homeschooling being in part about removing the whole concept of levels and skips, Z. Maybe becuase we're somehow just not as tied to that, the notion of slowing things down by going wide is easier for us to swallow? I'm not sure.

To me it seems perfectly natural to think about slowing things down in that way. It's really a major focus of my homeschooling. I was surprised to see that questioned as being unrealistic, frankly. It kind of flummoxed me!

I think of homeschooling less in terms of "undoing skips" and more as aiming a bit higher in the long run. So while DS is teetering on the edge of high school work right now (at 9 - math is definitely high school but taking a meandering path, science is nearly there, lit/comp and history I'm not sure but at least middle school...), I don't currently plan to send him to college in four years. Our school goes to whatever level we need it to go to until he's ready for college, whether that's early and accelerated or on time and with a really REALLY solid background. We do "go wide" but we also go fast... and if that means we go to grade 16, then so be it!

Yeah! What she said!



The question then is how that can be translated for someone who IS skipping and for whom school doesn't necessarily go to level 16.

I think it does translate, but maybe I'm wrong there...

I think it's possible in some schools, for some kids... Probably if you're in a large district with a lot of resources you could add on more and more specialty classes, beef up the arts program, do some independent study and internships... I don't see that happening in our local PS system (they have a full complement of AP offerings and all that, but nothing fabulously interesting that would keep one around for any longer than necessary...)

The more flexible they're willing to be the better, I think. And it probably helps to have a kid who can work independently or move between groups with ease... since it's unlikely you'd get a class-sized bunch in one place at one time.

You'll never actually "run out" of things to learn, and there are some areas that the traditional class sequence leaves out, which I personally thing are absolutely vital to all reponsible citizens (not just the gifted ones!) like more understanding of law and governance and international relations, a better grasp of statistics and science, more foreign language... Since we have "extra" time, we're spending a good bit of it on all of those!

Well, since the OP and G3 were arguing that the long-term problem was big for them, and since I think there are ways to solve that problem, at least to some extent, I was trying to take that next step.

I definitely side with the "worry about now" view myself. But I sympathize mightily with those afraid of what they'll do with a 13yo graduating from high school or whatever nutty situation might result.