We're about to have our second GIEP meeting. At the last meeting we didn't approve the GIEP, but we did ask for additional PLEP testing and we emphasized that we were more concerned with the day-to-day activities. Put another way: we are happy that DS will be in a pull out program but we're more concerned with the work that he's doing daily.

After a couple of requests, we've gotten a copy of the GIEP that we will talk about on Thursday.

The issued a G-MADE 2A test where we got a 73% and a QRI-3 where he apparently has been tested to have a first grade reading level and a second-third grade guided reading level. I haven't looked the GIEP yet, but this is what DW relayed to me over the phone. The only change to implementation is along the line of "give [DS] additional logical and math challenges."

I'm frustrated with this situation. First, this just doesn't add up. His favorite books are chapter books like Dragon's Slayer Academy. And after reading DSA he can tell you exactly what happened (we do spot quizzes every now and then). For the math I just don't get it.

So now, according to the school's PLEP, he's basically on par with first grade. Not to mention that we have the typical nebulous goals that aren't measurable but essentially what the school is saying is that he's at the right level.

I have no idea what we're going to do. I do know I'm pretty frustrated with the whole situation. It took 6 weeks to get a second appointment and either I'm crazy (and DS is a typical first grader) or I'm sane yet somehow when the school tests his achievement we get completely different (erroneous) results.

!!

How frustrating!

Did he take the tests seriously? Was it keeping him from recess or something so that he rushed through it and didn't care how he did?

From what I understand (from DS) they were giving these tests during snack time.

JB

Ugh. Do they not understand that rushing through and scoring badly probably shows that a kid is EXTRA smart!?! Who chooses test-taking over snack? Not the smart kid!

So sorry!

It just doesn't add up because when DS was telling us about the tests, he was given math tests over the course of a couple of days. Sounded like a long test (although very repetitive I think).

Right now where my head is at is to make sure that he's enjoying school (as much as he can) accept the GIEP so that he can start the pull out program, and then this summer figure out what we really want to do for second grade. But DW and I haven't really talked it all the way through.

JB

Hi JB

I have been off line for some time. Did they test him for 1st grade level, or beyond that?

Also our DS6 took the reading and math test on Letsgolearn.com, I belive his math is behind your son's, and he did well above 1st grade. Did well on reading, but missed some easy spelling words he knows and was at 2.5 grade for spelling.

Sometimes they have off days, I belive it is what they test for that matters. Secreatly I think they think they know what is best for our children, and that we are pushy parents. JB go with your gut, and keep fighting, keep asking questions.

One thing on math, my DS6 did not do well on metric vs english, so basicly even though he could do all math through 3rd grade, and most through 4th his Metric knowledge was not past 2nd grade. Does that mean he is at 2nd grade level.

Same on Reading, if he spells at 2.5, but reads at 5.5 is he 2.5?

I think you need more detail from them.

I hope my rambling is of help.

Edwin

Little more information now that I am home and can see the report.

GMADE 2A (not sure if the 2A is important). Percentile rank was 73 and NCE (not sure what this is) was 63. Strengths in operations and computations, process, and application skills. Needs to work on number sense. (need to figure that out too).

For the QRI-3, "independent reading" level is on a first grade level and "instructional level" at 2nd to 3rd grade. (This one doesn't match our independent evaluation which had him much higher.)

Still googling around...

Edwin, I'd even go so far as they outwardly think they know what's best :-)

JB

JBDad, my teacher friends have said that parents usually have reading level 1-2 grade levels above what teacher assesses. I'm not exactly sure for the reason but for my son, I think it was a speech issue. He didn't enunciate clearly and read too fast. This affected his score. At home, he'd read 2 grade levels ahead and could answer detailed questions about story, plot, characters etc.

I would agree with you, Dazed&Confuzed, but I think that we see them reading at higher levels because our houses and libraries don't direct them to the "appropriate level" rather, they get to direct themselves. DS6 generally chooses books between 3rd and 6th grade levels (which he plows through and understands), but at school, he is reading first grade material.

I was googling for 2A as well. Haven't found it yet...

JB

Ha. We're on separate paths tracking that down. I got that too (using google's cache) that A/B are different forms. Just trying to find confirmation on level. Off to read your link! Thanks!

JB

Excellent link Dottie!!!

JB

http://www.psycan.com/Product/Details.aspx?ProductID=12228

Specifically

http://www.psycan.com/ecms.ashx/22565d2e-72db-43ea-a1df-778741cb1d34/Documents/G-MADESampler.pdf

had some more good information. Looks like level 2 is (generally) grade 2. That's closer inline to what I'd expect (although they probably should have gone right to level 3 based on the charts).

JB

After looking at the test matrix, I really wished they would have tested at level 3 because it includes multiplication operations and geometry which he's actually pretty good at. When he is interested in something, he dives pretty deep on it. Nonetheless, it is good that they are testing at level 2 (which I am hoping DOES mean 2nd grade). Do have to find about the norms.

No, Dottie, we're still not in enrichment yet (unless you count home). We're still dancing with the district on our first GIEP. As DS would say "Ugh!"

JB

Right there with you battling with getting adequate PLEP levels, JBDad. Seems like your DS is instructional at the 2nd grade level for math (at least). Do you know your district's stance on subject acceleration? Would they be willing to bring the 2nd grade curriculum to him?

Since he's "instructional level" for reading at grade 2-3, could the district provide him with accelerated materials? IMHO, now is the time to ask outright (nicely) so you know if you're dealing with rigidity.

Based on where we are at this year (more than halfway over) we will very likely begrudgingly accept the GIEP so that he can start the pull out enrichment. I'd rather get something started now than wait another 6 weeks. We will see what they say when we meet them tomorrow. Maybe they'll surprise us. But I think right now we're just going to make the best of the remainder of this year, and then this summer re-evaluate.

Based on the scores, Dottie I agree with you. The scores just don't seem inline with our observations which is what is nagging me. They are not completely inline with the WIAT scores but they're not totally out of whack either (although that was 6 months ago). I would be interested in getting more details on the test they gave, but I'm not sure that they'll share that with us (I don't think they are required to). For example, one comment was that DS needs to work more on number sense. I guess is depends on what they asked him about (he doesn't have good number sense for money for example). But if you're just talking about word problems ("Mary had 12 pencils, she gave away 2 pencils, how many did she have left over?") he's pretty sharp.

But I think for now we're going to try to make the best of what we have. I know that during math class right now, he really doesn't learn anything. That's not a great situation.

JB

Ha. Then that REALLY doesn't make sense to me! :-)

JB

Greater than/less than/equal to was one of the concepts that he picked up very, very early on. I could see his estimation skills being off.

I am wondering if he just rushed through some things and made some calculation errors. He told us the day he took this test that he "got things mostly correct but then we he went back he missed a couple of problems but told the teacher I know what the answer is."

Thanks for the reference. For the second grade number sense it's possible he doesn't know some of those terms.

JB

JBDad - everything I have read about your ds says these tests are off the mark; you know him. You are not insane (that I can tell).

Sorry it will mean a setback on real challenge for him at school - but I guess advocacy can be in the form of advocating for good/better instruments to assess with, going forward?

Hang in there!!

My guess would be that he encountered questions he had never seen before. He either didn't understand the questions or some of the terms used.

It's one of the "gaps" which would probably take you all 5 to 10 minutes to fill. All he needs is to be exposed to the right questions and terminology. Unfortunately I worry that the teachers wouldn't understand this kind of explanation

Good luck with your meeting

just wanted to say good luck with your meeting.

Thanks. As usual everyone is being very helpful and a great sounding board. (And if it turns out that the tests are accurate, then getting our DS the level of enrichment that he needs will be an easier task.)

Thanks.

JB

Yeah, it *would* be easier, *IF* the tests were accurate. I think you know they're not, GT denial or no...

One test--especially when given at a level not right for your son and by people not skilled at testing GT kids--doesn't overturn everything that you know about your child.

I'm not saying to completely disregard these scores. There may be something useful there. But I am also saying that you shouldn't disregard *everything else* just because of this one test.

You know what you know, and don't you forget it!

Good luck JBDad. This thread reminds me of the IEPs by Dr. Suess at the Hoagies site. http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/ieps_by_seuss.htm

I hope you don't need 6003!

The problem could be the tests they administer. From what I remember and what I've seen, the tests use dry passages and multiple choice answers. This can make anyone shut down.

Also, from my reading and what I've learned through personal experience, a very capable mind can shut down when the work is too easy or the pace is too slow.

Example: have you ever listened to a web-based presentation on how to use a software application or something similar? The narrator repeats things again and again and again...I don't know about you, but I start tuning out quickly. It's not because I'm too lazy to pay attention. It's because I got it the first time. I think that this reaction is a natural one. Concentrating on the same message again and again is exhausting and shutting it out may be the mind's way of saving energy (speculation here!). The problem is that you can never predict when you'll miss an important piece of information.

Remember, the tests are designed for kids who cluster near or near-ish to the average. Here's a metaphor for how this approach can gum up a gifted mind:

Say you build a track for test-driving cars. Greater than 98% of the cars on your track won't have the capacity to go over 70 mph. So you don't worry about occasional bumps on the track, and you hire a low-cost company to make an out-of-the-box track. The surface isn't perfect, but everyone just drives over the bumps without a problem. Every now and then, someone goes 80, but it all works out because you mention that one dip at that far corner and tell them to avoid it.

Then one day, a guy with something called a Ferarri comes along. You tell him that your track is BRILLIANT and that no one has ever had a problem on it. He says he can go fast. Really fast. Will he be okay? You've seen people go 80 and heard that someone went a little faster once (maybe 90?). You know that that's the limit. You have spent the last ten years watching hundreds of cars on your track. You know he'll be okay, because everyone has always been okay. You mention that dip in the corner.

The driver accelerates to 150 mph on a straight stretch. You have never seen anything like this before and you can't believe anyone could go so fast. Suddenly, the guy hits a bump, and WHAMMO! he loses control and wrecks his car. He breaks his legs, is pretty shaken up, and loses his enthusiasm for driving.

You blame him for thinking he was a better driver than he was, and never consider for a moment that the bumps may have caused the problem.

You can argue that he should have checked the track out, but you were the one who told him it was such a great track.

All because you could not conceive of such a thing as 150 mph.

(Simplistic, but on-point, I believe)

Val!

Val-
What a great metaphor.

I agree, but I sadly don't think the tests will be modified. Statistics just don't work well with outliers; in any field, we are taught that we have to investigate outliers - with case studies if possible. I guess this is why we have to advocate for each individual child.

Perhaps, and I say perhaps because it really isn't my field, we should set up a forum for posting data that could be used for statistical evaluation of this end of the tail. As parents or advocates or educators, we have the quantitative data (scores, ages, etc), qualitative data (attitude, individual preferences, etc)...and we have both over time (longitudinal) for these kids. Just a thought.