So, I'm waiting for a meeting to be scheduled with the principal, DS5's two teachers and the social worker, to discuss son's boredom and frustration with school. I asked the principal last week if I could please have access to the curriculum learning objectives for math. He offered to get me both reading and math - great.

Today he calls and says he is printing off the state learning standards, as they choose a curriculum which "of course meets the state standards." I point out that what I'm looking for is the actual objectives, what he is expected to know by the end of first grade. He says, that's what this is. I say, no, those are general guidelines not exact description of knowledge to be mastered. I point out that I want to see how we can assess DS regarding his mastery of the learning material to be presented this school year. I say that I'm not concerned with whether he can meet the minimum state standards for learning, since he tests in the 98th-99th % on achievement. I don't think meeting state standards is an issue. To which this principal ACTUALLY SAID: "Well, I'm not sure that is the case. I'm not the one who would be assessing that." What?! Did our state recently raise the learning standards so that EVERY child needs to be at the 99th%?!!! Ugh! The battle continues.

And still no meeting is set. At least the social worker seems to be a potential ally. Pray for us!

sometimes I am overwhelmed with the ignorance of educators. this principal clearly shows that he skipped most of his stats and eval classes. chuckle.

praying

Debbie,

I�m so sorry for your situation. Sad, but interesting that you started out the school year as a cooperative advocate and now you state that �the battle continues�. BTDT!

As a fellow Illinois resident, I am not optimistic that you will get any meaningful accommodations in the current grade. However, I may be overly pessimistic based on our particular experiences. There may be someone in your school district�s food chain that actually cares about your son�s education. Have you contacted the superintendent or any school board members?

Maybe someone will break ranks and do the right thing! I will pray for your family!

Diana

Thanks for the support. Obviously I need it!
I just got off the phone with the regional board of education office. I had been referred to the gifted coordinator for our county. Diana, you are so right. In IL they have cut funding, so that person doesn't even exist any more. The person I spoke to at that office referred me to IAGC. I'll email her again! And my husband and I joined IAGC and will be attending the parent workshops in Chicago on 2/4 - hoping to network and get some names to drop later! At least maybe some good resources and allies!

My plan right now is to go in to our meeting with a list of options. I have them roughed out already. I'm including resources and methods for differentiating the math curriculum for him. I'm going to stay hopeful. I have been advocating for children in the educational system for about 15 years now, so I know the politics and the protocol and way to "guide the team" so to speak. I have just learned now, first hand, how hard it is to do this for your own child! Much easier to keep that mother bear in check when I'm being the professional advocating for someone else's child, though even then I become outraged at some of the things that happen.

Thanks again - I'll keep you posted on what goes on for us.

Good luck Debbie!
I'm sure you will do everything right. Unfortunatly that doesn't mean you'll get a workable result. Please bear in mind that the "stuff" that blows your way isn't personal to you or your son.

Please keep us posted. Remember that you do have alternatives, that what keeps it an negotiation, rather than begging.

((big proud smile))
Trin

Hi Debbie.

Did you have your team meeting yet?

BTW, I'm impressed that your husband is attending the IL gifted conference with you! Mine has just agreed to attend the YS gathering in MN.

I wonder if things will change more rapidly when the dads show up as informed advocates too.

Hey, thanks for checking! But I'm actually somewhat frustrated right now as we don't even have a date set up yet! Last week the principal gave me the line that he is waiting to get some "times that work" from the social worker. But he thought she wanted to get through her assessment of DS before setting the date. I waited until today to call him, but he's out of the school. Tomorrow I will call and call and call until I get a date set up!

The principal sent home the state learning standards and their "descriptors" - which was NOT what I wanted. But I went through them anyway. Of course DS has already mastered all the standards for math at "Level A" and at least 50% at "Level B". I think that refers to 1st and 2nd grade based on what the principal's note said.

Now my hub and I want to get in there and actually see the curriculum. I'm determined to get pretesting with the curriculum materials and get DS moved on. Assouline's book discusses programming and emphasizes how easy it is to just pretest with the actual curriculum to determine level of instruction the child is ready for. Fill in the gaps and move on, they advise. That book is going to be my Bible at the meeting!

Right now my goal is to get DS through second grade math by the end of summer (if not the end of the school year) with the intention of having him promoted to 2nd grade but enter 3rd grade math in the fall. I think it is the only way to keep him interested and get him to a point where he might be learning something at school. Poor thing is being so patient and doing what he is told to do. But the other day he said "I think second grade will be better, Mom. Don't you?" Oh sweetie, I hope so. Mom's going to do her best to make it that way.

I'll keep you posted on how the advocacy goes!

And yeah, I'm glad DH wanted to attend to. He is pretty dumbfounded by the sensitivities and emotional parts and the parent seminars focus on that stuff this year. DH identifies with our son's perfectionism and boredom with traditional teaching methods (imagine that!) and I think there is some self realization going on for him. So I'm glad he's attending too!

Hi Debbie,
I'm sorry you are getting this kind of delay... It has been my experience that advocating is quite a roller coaster - they promise the moon in convinsing language one meeting, and then the "big boys" from the district come in and squash it the next....

Well, it has worked for other people, and as long as you and DH understand him, that will go a long way.

I highly reccomend that you, or perhaps you and DH take a day and spend some time in the proposed recieving classes. There's no point waiting for a meeting if you aren't going to be offered a prize worth wanting...so arrange to sit quietly and observe in the back of the class ASAP. ((Or have you already done that---I'm getting a little confused --- so many sweet little boys being unforced underachievers lately!))

Best Wishes,
Trinity

Keep in mind that most teachers don't really understand what the numbers mean...... Last year, Snoopy's teacher told me that it was important that I realize that he got 99 percentile - not 100 percentile - meaning that there is still some material he can learn at that grade level.

Ooops..... I thought educators had to take some sort of course in statistics so that they could understand difficult concepts like percentile......


Mary

Oh my...that goes under "ridiculous things I heard today" on Hoagies page!

We actually have a meeting set up now! A week from today. And I made it clear that my husband and I want to come in and see the teacher's manuals for the curriculum for 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade, prior to the meeting. So now he is supposed to be checking in to whether all that material is actually in the classrooms or the teachers took it home, yada yada yada.... Whatever. He'll be getting the stuff together and finding a quiet room where we can review it. That's what I wanted.

I haven't gone to observe in the second or third grade classes - partly because there is only one of each level (no choice re: teacher) and partly because we haven't gotten that far. If they flat out refuse to use curriculum based testing to see where he is at and move him forward, then I will likely tell them that we will be homeschooling for math and he will join his class after math is done.

I need to be sure that the principal is on the same page regarding the agenda for this meeting. No surprises or delays in making decision. Last night I typed up my list of proposed solutions - 3 options that we can discuss. I'll be giving that to him ahead of the meeting time, so he and the teachers can review it and we can hit the ground running at this meeting. I'm not in the mood for more "data collection and review" meetings. This one needs to generate solutions.

I was pleased that the teacher did finally have him reading a more appropriate level book (2nd-3rd grade level) and for the first time had him do some writing/comprehension stuff (at least that came home with him). Yea! That's some good stuff. But he still said the book was easy to read and the questions weren't hard. Right now though I need to focus on the math - we can bump reading up later if needed.

Thanks for the encouragement, and the laughs! I'll keep you posted.

omigosh! That just made me gasp!! One of the things that is driving me NUTS is the members of the IEP team who don't understand what the evaluations and measurements mean.

Educators should have to take a stats review course and a measurements and eval review periodically.

It is also interesting to me how the positive (high ability) information on those tests seem to mean nothing to the educators, but the negative (LDs) information seem to be written by God himself in their eyes.

sigh.

Yeah, isn't it funny how sometimes at an IEP the low scores are of great concern and targeted for intervention and treatment, yet the high scores are typically ignored and sometimes even written off as not accurate?!

And what about when a child does well at school and the teacher takes credit for being a great teacher but when they don't do well it's because the child isn't motivated or paying attention? What's with that attitude? (I'm not meaning to bash all teachers, just noting that this attitude exists!)

Last year, I asked the school counselor (who does the evals for acceleration) to clarify the assessment requirements. Was that "95" needed to accelerate meaning 95th percentile on the test, or 95%? She replied, "Yes". I asked her again and got the SAME answer..."Yes". I knew we were in trouble at that point.

Incidentally, the test she gave DS5 required him to solve multiplication & division problems, which I don't think is pertinent to skipping kindergarten.

Christi

They also tend to round everything out so the child doesn�t appear twice exceptional, they are �average�.

The other night at the YMCA, there was a woman walking the track who wore a T-shirt that made me laugh and sadly think of this topic. It said, �Manipulate Data and Thrive�.

In the case of younger children, of course you know they can't trust the high scores because, well, the bright kids will all "level off" by third or fourth grade when the others "catch up." (rolling of eyes)

Oh yikes, I'm sorry for the runaround you've been getting. If it comes down to it, go directly to your state superintendant of education. Usually that will produce some kind of immediate results....puts the fire under the feet of the responsible parties at the district level. A simple e-mail should do it.

I can't wait to hear how your meeting goes! Good luck!

Thanks for the empathy and the advice. So far we haven't had the district superintendent involved since last May, when we were advocating for early first grade. Hopefully we won't have to go any further than him, but I will find out who the person would be higher up, just in case.

I am still waiting for the principal to get back to me about a time that hub and I can review the Saxon curriculum at the school. Funny thing, DS came home yesterday and said that his math teacher gave him a test - only him. He said it was easy, that the only question he didn't know asked him to color in the centimeters and he didn't know what a centimeter is (we've only done inches, darn!). So apparently they are doing some pretesting that we didn't know about.

Good news, DS is pretty happy with the rest of school right now. Reading has been bumped up to some lengthier books with some plot to them and he is enjoying them. He actually likes doing the comprehension questions, too. And he says he LOVES it when they do science and social studies stuff. So, at least there's some good going on. Perhaps that's why he is calmer and more agreeable to going to school lately.

I'm getting anxious for the meeting as well. DS knows we are meeting and he says he can't wait for us to get him some "hard math." Here's hoping it goes well!

Wow! I just got off the phone with the principal and you've GOT to hear (or read!) what he said:

Principal: "I've got all the curriculum materials you requested here in my office for you and your husband to review."
Me: "Thanks so much. We can come by today at noon."
P: "Just to remind you, I can't let you copy any of the material or take it out of the school. This is material used for assessment and if it left the building it could skew the results of testing."

WHAT???!!!! It's curriculum!!! NOT standardized assessments!!!!
I could purchase the whole program online if I had a few extra hundred dollars sitting around! Oh, brother. I don't know how I will get through this meeting - count to 10, deep breath. Keep breathing!

And then I asked if the math teaacher is testing DS. He said, "yes, she is testing him using some of the end of year assessments to get an idea of his current level of knowledge. I thought that might be helpful information to have at our meeting next Wednesday."
yeah, I agree. I asked for this in early December. Good idea, sir. Glad you thought of it. Hah. There's my infamous sarcasm peeking out!
Well, off to get some work done at work, then out to look at this Saxon stuff. Happy day. (oops, more sarcasm!).

Hey Debbie -
((Warm hand on your back))
You will find the right path somewhere in this mess. Problem is that it takes a while to look back on it all and see where the turning point was....

Your son is in the "happy holding mode" - for now, I am grateful.

Best Wishes,
Trin

Debbie-
This probably won't catch you in time, but it sounds more like the principal is having the math teacher do a "screening" not an "assessment". An assessment has to be administered and interpreted by the school psychologist or a SPED teacher who has advanced training in evaluations and measurements.

At least that's my understanding of it.

I'm looking forward to hearing what you think about Saxon math.

best of luck...

Hi Willa. I'm back from looking at the curriculum. DH and I agree that Saxon math just isn't going to work in the long run for DS. Too slow moving, too repetitive. And DS has already mastered most of 2nd grade. Now that we've seen the curriculum we are more prepared to advocate for just moving him into second grade math tomorrow (read: asap) and do some home tutoring to "fill in the gaps" for the knowledge he doesn't have. We think he would do just fine. And be more challenged, at least for a little while. Eventually the whole darn thing is going to get boring again, as he learns math independently at home and everywhere else - craves it almost, like air! And looking at the 3rd grade program we realized that he is already learning some of THAT material. So, when it rolls around he'll be bored again.

As for the assessments, what they are doing is pulling the end of the year written assessments from the Saxon program. So they are doing a "curriculum based assessment" using the actual curriculum to see just what he knows in THAT curriculum. That was what the teaching consultant at the Saxon publishing co. had suggested. In her book, Susan Assouline recommends doing that to determine just where a child should be placed in a curriculum. It also helps to identify any gaps in knowledge that need to be addressed.

Our mission now is to listen patiently to what the school has to say, advocate for what we think is best by educating them on just what he needs and then figuring out what to do in the long run, since Saxon just doesn't look very promising, even in third grade. I'm thinking they are going to balk at putting him in second grade, but maybe they'll surprise us.

I started to pave the way by giving the principal copies of two chapters from Assouline's book (myths about mathematically talented kids and the programming chapter) and contact info for the Educators Guild at DI. Who knows, maybe he'll even look at that info before next wed.!

I was using Saxon 65 with Mite this fall and ran into the same walls...too slow especially.

I hope the principal does read it prior to your meeting. It helps so much when they actually come prepared. sigh. So many times they do not.

I don't know why math companies call the end of chapter and book exams "assessments". They aren't assessments. But oh well...Here's to your little guy doing well!!!! Go for it little man!

Go for it Momma and Dad!

Debbie, it might not hurt to put a bug in the principal's ear...call or email him early next week and ask if he's had a chance to read the materials you gave him. Tell him you're hoping a lot can be accomplished at the meeting, and it would help tremendously if he's read the material ahead of time so he knows where you're coming from.

GG: that's a great idea! I was going to go to the meeting prepared with each option for change typed out, with a list of the pros/cons of each one. I thought that would help move the discussion along as they have said they don't know how to differentiate for him. If I give that to them ahead of time do you think that will put them on the defensive? I want to help and have us all be prepared so a decision can be made. But I don't want to come across as too aggressive or overstepping boundaries into the educators role. But they've already said they don't know what to do. I do know how important it is to keep them on my son's side, not establish an adversarial relationship. What do you guys think?

Debbie,

The list is a great idea. The more prepared you are in advance, the better. It also alleviates the pressure of having to remember, in the moment (with teachers/administrators staring at you), everything you wanted to say.

I also think giving them the list ahead of time is a good idea. If you're worried about how they might perceive it, you could include a short cover letter to "set the tone"... perhaps something like:

"Dear X,
I thought it would be helpful to prepare for our upcoming meeting on Wednesday by researching some possible ways to differentiate instruction for [son's name].

The attached list presents X different options, with pros and cons of each, for us to mutually explore. I hope that you will find some time to review this information before our meeting, so we can make the best use of everyone's time and agree on a course of action as soon as possible.

I have put much thought and effort into compiling these options, but please know that I am open to exploring any additional suggestions you may have. I greatly value your professional training and experience as educators, and look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas.

I am confident that we can work together to create the most appropriate educational experience for [son's name]."

I guess I differ on this one. I've found I gain more with the IEP team if I present things in person to all of them at once. Anytime I've given them stuff before the meeting, they seem to have spent some time together thinking of reasons NOT to do what we are asking.

By giving it to them at the table, I'm able to field their questions and assuage their fears immediately. I also think they are scared of stuff in writing. Stuff in writing makes it more "legal" and less "personal".

Of course, that said, always follow-up the meeting in writing to confirm everything you agreed on.

YMMV, an acceleration meeting may have less intensity coming into it than an IEP meeting.

HMMMM.....well, that's interesting to get two very different opinions! And they pretty much reflect the two sides that I have thought about and why I'm not sure what to do!

GG: I really appreciate the wording you offered. My first attempt sounded too strong, so I reworked the material and "softened" the approach. Your suggested wording is great so I'll take advantage and plagarize! Thanks!

Willa: Points well taken. I agree about not giving them too much time to counter the suggestions I have. But since we've already had a successful advocacy relationship and they've already been exposed to where I'm coming from, I think I'm going to take a chance and give them my list beforehand. I'm more worried that we will go away from the meeting without having made any decision at all. And DS is counting on us (parents) to make changes to his math at this meeting. I do agree that heading into an IEP can be different.

Thanks to both of you.

Hi Debbie,

I did think of the same concern Fite mentioned, and it is a very important concern to consider. If I were in your shoes and I didn't have a good sense of how "adversarial" vs. "open-minded" the school people might be, then I probably wouldn't give them the list in advance. But it sounded from previous conversations that you had a good sense of how they might respond.

I'm happy if any wording I suggested was helpful to you. Plagarize away! :-)

I'll be watching later this week for the update after the meeting. Best of luck!

GG

Go with your gut Debbie!!! You know your particular situation and there are many nuances to conversations that cannot be expressed in these brief posts. If you feel they will be more responsive with the list given ahead of time, the go for it.

Good luck. I'm looking forward to hearing positive results from you!!

Well, I was still not 100% sure what to do, but went ahead and sent a letter with my ideas outlined. Plagarized some of GG's writing and referred to working together and looking forward to their ideas. Hopefully it will be well received!

Sidenote, we attended our state gifted kids association conference yesterday. It was more didactic and lecture than we expected (but not more than I'm used to in continuing education!) but we learned a lot about the overall development and potential issues for gifted kids. And it helped a lot to talk with other parents in person. I highly recommend to everyone - join and participate in your state association.

LOL - here's a suggestion that needs a side of salt. Just ask for twice as much as you want. I know a IRL family that it worked for. So when you make your argument for him in 3rd grade Math - that is, he is already learning it at home, so he must be capable to learning the material, they can pat you on the head and put him in 2nd Grade Math. Then you try for an agreement to have in retested at the end of year so he can go with 4th Grade Math in September and concede.

Best Wishes and I agree - go with your gut.

Trinity

LOL! I think I used this strategy when I bought my last car, but in reverse! Definitely a point well taken, even with the salt!

It seems to be an unwritten rule of negotiation. I've found it worked well in the work world.
Trin

I got a letter today from the principal. I'm very glad that I sent the letter and info ahead of time. He has responded with a letter that will allow us to cut to the chase at the meeting tomorrow.

Paraphrased, the letter states:
Thank you for all the information you have shared with me over the last two days. We have already provided the following accomodations for your son - followed by a list of already being accelerated, getting enrichment activities in math (which are supposedly a challenge), been assessed with end of the year assessments which indicate "holes" in his math ability and that he is receiving social work services "as requested by his parents" (the principal initiated this, not us) and that he is at times showing a lack of maturity as this is his first year of formal schooling.

Then he goes on to state what they plan on doing:
he will continue to do the group instruction and "individualized enrichment"..."will offer challenge to him but not push him too quickly through curriculum so as to create an larger holes in his achievement." Bah. He doesn't have holes - he has a couple of things he hasn't been exposed to. And those are things not expected until May of this school year, if the teacher gets that far in the program! And things that DS could learn in about 10 minutes!

He also says the staff will "shorten his more rote-like assignments when deemed appropriate.....provided he has demonstrated concept mastery at an acceptable level to the staff." And he will continue to receive social work services and we'll meet at the end of the school year to "determine what will be the best educational placement for next year." what the heck does that mean? Like he might not go into second grade or what?! I'm sure he doesn't mean that they will skip him to third grade math for next year.

Ugh. and ugh again. I'm frustrated and trying to stay calm. Trying to just breathe and collect my supportive documentation so I can counter everything. And just about ready to say forget it, he's staying home.

Then DS comes home and I try to talk to him about it. and he says he's fine and he can stay in the class. But then he refuses to do the homework saying it is too easy! When pressed, he says that he wants "other kids" to go to second grade too. So I think he is starting to feel singled out. and the school staff just doesn't get it. He's also bringing home more marks on his behavior card. Having a hard time following rules and keeping quiet, hands to himself, etc. he's just bored.

Say prayers. For me and the principal. He'll need them!
I'll likely start a new thread tomorrow after the meeting to let you know what happens. Thanks for the safe spot to vent.

Saying prayers already, Debbie.

At least now you know what to expect, going into the meeting, and can prepare mentally/emotionally.

I think your DS's behavior says a lot about him not being challenged appropriately. Unfortunately, they can also use that against you and say "see, he's not mature enough to handle higher level work..." (sigh).

I'll be thinking of you tomorrow. Keep up the good fight!

GG