Hi everyone,

Feeling overwhelmed right now. DS is a DYS, GAI 148. My son is also 2e. He hates school and is given no differentiation. School principal even said they would not give him a book to read during Self Selected Reading at his level because it would be inappropriate, even though it would be at no cost to them. Three independent psychologists say he needs a gifted program. Conveniently, our public school district offers a TAG magnet program. It requires high scores in the NWEA for reading/math/science and NNAT2.

DS got a 99th percentile in both reading and science for the NWEA, 86th percentile in math...but his NNAT2 scores were not high enough. Denied admission. They do not take any other information to determine eligibility for the TAG program. They do not accept appeals or look at his WISC IV which we got last year. So he has yet another year languishing at school while he waits to retest and he'd better perform on that day because that is his only shot.

Something else...DS has a 504 for anxiety. As part of his 504 plan, he has extended and/or untimed tests. The NNAT2 is a timed test, and the TAG proctor insisted that my son take it without accommodations. DS's principal argued with the TAG proctor but lost. So my son's 504 was violated. The principal told me and the next day I got an apologetic email from the TAG office. They came back and gave DS a paper and pencil NNAT2 test with adjusted time. I didn't make a stink about it at the time because I didn't want the TAG office to be biased against my child when evaluating his eligibility. But DS doesn't like repeating work and has huge test anxiety. You can guess how that went, and now I am angry.

We live in Michigan, a state with no mandates. The law is not on our side. So I ask you folks who have much more experience than I do...what can we do to fight this decision? Do I have a shot with the 504 violation or not?

Or...is the way they screen kids for TAG a big red flag? Is it high achievement that they mistakenly call "giftedness"

I feel for you. That's a difficult situation. I'm surprised that the principal won't allow on-level reading yet would fight with the proctor! I will send you a PM with one thought I don't want to post here.

IMHO, yes, the high achievement testing required (I'm assuming that's what the NNAT2) combined with not accepting the WISC results makes me wonder if the program isn't a good fit for your son anyway. Is he getting or could he get single-subject acceleration at his current school? Is there any chance you could visit with the administrator of the TAG magnet and ask about their experiences with 2e... and drop a mention of what happened with the testing into the conversation?

Is this something that Davidson can help you with? Isn't that one of the benefits of being a DYS that they help advocate? I am so sorry. I hope you are able to find a solution.

Isn't the NNAT a non-verbal ability test, like looking at matrices? How did he do on matrix reasoning on the WISC?

It sounds like your district is extremely unreasonable if they won't even look at other test results. I would consider if the program itself is as unaccommodating as the selection process. For instance what happens if he doesn't do well on classroom tests because of anxiety? Do the teachers understand 2e?

Since they did let him re-take the test with extended time, you'll probably have a hard time fighting this. Is this a program where there are a limited number of slots/seats? It seems like those programs end up having the most unreasonable or potentially unfair admissions practices because there has to be a cut-off line somewhere.

You stated that they don't take appeals, but maybe it's worth contacting whoever is in charge of the magnet program with your child's WISC scores and 2e status. How far off were his NNAT scores from qualifying? If they are close, maybe there is some wiggle room given that he is 2e as well. It likely also depends on the size of the magnet program. If they are at capacity with tons of kids qualifying, you may not have much luck.

I think it is appropriate (and common) to look at achievement scores as well as ability, but the NNAT2 is a short, non verbal test that doesn't measure all that many areas of ability. There should also be subject specific ability testing, like the OLSAT or cogat.

It's strange that they won't let your child read what he wants to during free reading. We pick out books from the public library and my son takes them to school. His teacher has never said anything about what he chooses to read.

I spoke with my Davidson consultant and she said she is not able to advocate for us.

They do have a limited number of slots. We believe his NNAT2 was miscalculated because his score was in the 1st percentile...really. Every other data point we have ever had on my son inside and out of the school district shows he is gifted.

We are suspecting they used the computer (timed) score that was supposed to be cancelled out since they violated his 504. You would think the TAG committee would say "gee, this kid has 99s in everything but math, and an 86 in that one...but a 1 in the NNAT2? Something is wrong here." but they just denied him. We have yet to receive a call/email back from the TAG office.

Glad to see others are as perplexed as I am as to why the principal would not allow my son to read books at his level. When he was in Kindergarten his teacher gave him 4th grade books...now he is in 3rd grade, and he is still getting 4th grade books even though he reads at a higher level.

Any other suggestions? I appreciate the tips thus far. Thanks!

I really don't understand the reading restriction at all. Just give him the books he wants to read and allow him to take them to school to read during 'reading time'.

I have never obsessed over 'reading level' as I believe once you have cracked the code and learned to read that you are only limited by your access to text and your curiosity. Reading level is a BS term as far as I am concerned. If my DD wants to read something that isn't pornographic or excessively violent/drug encouraging/glorifying suicide or self harm etc I let her and why wouldn't I?

Not even wanting to help just doesn't sound like DYS - who is your family consultant? We did not need the help at the time that my DD was skipped but our consultant was almost pugnaciously keen and very ready to step in for us - her having our backs like that was very supportive.

If you get the situation with the NNAT resolved and he scores above whatever their cut-off is, would they accept him into that program? Or is the math score too low? We have a similar magnet program here and they give preference to kids who score above the 98th percentile in both reading AND math. If they make it far enough down the list of students they will take one or the other (reading OR math) but the "other" still has to be above the 90th percentile. Might be worth finding out what their acceptance criteria are before asking anymore about the NNAT. It does sound fishy--like he just didn't finish the test, or even come close, or was maybe picking random answer choices. Obviously the school should want to find out what a student's TRUE ability level is. It bugs me how districts do such high-stakes testing on little kids where if you don't get one score, you're out.

I feel for you and we could easily wind up in the same situation with our youngest DYS at school in the next couple of years. DYS DD9 tested into the G&T program at school easily, but the school has its own gauntlet of tests and it is easy to see how an anxious kiddo could fail to make it through this many tests well (even bright kiddos have a bad day sometimes, right?). Still, our G&T program has an appeal process (which we were lucky to not have to use...yet).

madeintheuk, I am sending you a PM.

If his 504 plan was violated that would seem BIG in my book.

I don't know much about the NNAT, but I am extremely familiar with NWEA MAP. Does he have a "NWEA score history" that can show evidence of high scores from a multitude of administrations? If so, I believe that this is strong evidence of achievement. In terms of ability and IQ, I believe that WISC and SB are the "gold standard" here, aren't they? Can DYS help you find some literature to support the use of the test scores you have as extremely relevant to your DS's qualifications for the program?

Who has told you that you can't appeal? Or is that written policy that you've seen? Or both?

FWIW, our elementary school level gifted program entry requirements are written into the policy book in a way that looks like there is no way to appeal. When you talk to the testers/gate-keepers of the program it *sounds* like there is no way to appeal. Yet if you network through the parental grapevine, you'll find out that there actually are quite a few kids who get into the program every year without the complete swath of required test scores simply because they have parents who advocated strongly for their kids.

This is what I'd recommend: first, determine if "no appeal" has been actually communicated to you. If not, appeal. If it has, appeal to the next higher level up the chain of command from the person you got the "no" from. Put your request for the appeal *in writing* (email is ok). Include all the documentation of level of giftedness that you have (copy of WISC scores, school testing etc). Include report documents, but also summarize the scores within the body of your email. Summarize (briefly) the circumstances surrounding the NNAT test where your ds wasn't given his accommodations. Politely request he be considered for the program.

Then wait for a response . If the response is no, I'd resend - this time be sure you are sending it to the district-level gifted supervisor, and include documentation on the validity of the WISC vs NNAT and other types of tests at assessing innate ability.


It's possible the math achievement score might keep him out of the program - it would in our district, where students have to show across the board high scores to get into the magnet school. Just curious, where is he placed in math now? On grade level or above? Is he a high achiever in math and do you have classwork to support as proof?

OTOH, we have pull-out programs in each elementary school that have lower bars for qualifying - if you can't get him into the magnet, consider including him in any lower-level gifted programs that are in his neighborhood school. It might not be the ideal placement, but we had our EG ds in pull-out programs with lower-level ability kids for a few years in elementary and while it wasn't the ideal solution, he liked the program and he liked being with a higher overall ability level of kids.



Getting angry is understandable, but try to channel the angry-energy into advocating energy. I see one big issue with how the second NNAT test came about - was he given the *same* test or are there two different forms of the NNAT? If there aren't two different versions, the results would have been invalid anyway even if he'd performed well, because he'd already been *very* recently exposed to the questions.


The law may not be on your side re rights to placement in gifted programs, but *federal* law is on your side re 504 accommodations. I would recommend looking for a parent advocate network office in your state or area - these are groups funded by federal $ that can provide advice free of charge to parents of children with special needs who are navigating the advocacy process for 504s and IEPs etc. If you can't find a parent advocate group try to find a group that provides pro bono legal advice to families who have students with disabilities. I have found both types of groups through the yellow pages at www.wrightslaw.org Chances are just one phone call to a group that can offer advice on this situation (with the 504 violation) will give you the words you need and a direction re how to direct your concern up the food chain at school.


I'd not worry about this at the moment, and wouldn't bring up this concern with the school. Focus on your ds, and his abilities, and getting him qualified for TAG. After he's qualified, or if he ultimately can't get in, then re-focus on advocating for change to the identification process. It does seem limited in scope if only one ability test is used and if that test is (possibly) slanted toward one type of ability. There should be an appeals process too. And all other sorts of ways to go about id'ing and serving gifted students... but for now, start with step one, advocating for your ds to get in with the data you have... which should be enough, with the possible exception of math achievement.

Thanks everyone. It just feels good to vent a little. Here is an update.

We are appealing the decision anyway. My son's NNAT2 scores were messed up because Pearson, the company who computed his score used the wrong answer key. District TAG program apologized and they are still reviewing his application. My DYS counselor said there was nothing she could do to lobby for DS in this situation.

So while it's not an outright rejection, I have some red flags because gee, this kid has a history of scores in the 90s on the NWEA reading and math (86 was his lowest score) and no one on the committee noticed a huge discrepancy between achievement tests and NNAT2? His NNAT2 score was in the 1st percentile before we got them to admit they used the wrong answer key. Not one person on the committee thought "hmmm 99th in reading and science, 86th in math, and bottom of the barrel in NNAT2. Something is not computing here." That is alarming to me.

We are applying to other districts' TAG programs too, and my son just got into a private school with many gifted students but it is $18k a year and we didn't qualify for financial aid. We are happy about his admission but we are freaking out because it will mean so much change to everyone in the family if he goes there. But for once, it is nice to have options, even if they are some we cannot afford.

Jeez. With a 1 percentile result on an obviously smart kid I would assume a grading error or that the child purposely bombed the test. Hopefully the score comes back at the level he needs to qualify.

Unfortunately thinking isn't in many people's job descriptions.

Wow, you wonder how idiots get to run the TAG program..

Sorry someone had to say it.

Reminds me of that old Far Side cartoon with the guy straining to push the door with a very clear 'PULL' label on the door LOL

Ha ha thanks for the laugh! I know this group here gets it vs my son's principal thinking I am just some crazy pushy "my child is special" mom!

What stinks for DS is the acceptance letters for TAG went out already, and we don't know if there will be a spot left for him if he qualifies. If his scores aren't high enough I can accept that. But if they are and all the slots are gone before he gets a fair shot that would be awful.

He daydreams all the time and reads under his desk (not books at his level, that is a no-no remember). I just miss the little eager learner he used to be & thought the district TAG program would reignite that spark.

You know before you start trying to move heaven and earth to get him into the gifted program it might be a good idea to find out what that program actually is. I only say this because even in states that have requirements to provide gifted and talented education, what school do to meet those requirements can differ dramatically. I know in one state where we lived they had mandated teaching for gifted kids, but in one school that meant simply pulling the gifted students out of class for 45 minutes each week to give them a special class, in another it meant putting them in small groups within a regular classroom and then providing them more advanced work than the rest of the class... In other words don't assume the schools program is worth fighting for, it might not be worth the effort to get your child into it.

I know that feeling of unanticipated costs. We are pretty much in the same boat. We're opting to try the gifted school next year and see how it goes. Keep in mind if you choose that route, you'd only be committing for a year. It may be a great fit, or maybe it isn't for him.

Some things I'd try:

reach out to any network you have--a local gifted mailing list? local DYS parents? --and see what you can find out about the TAG program. It probably would be an improvement over your local school but you may be better off pushing for one of your other options.

if your appeal isn't granted I would consider going up the administrative chain -- the school board? is there a disability office at the state level?

could you manage to homeschool for a year?

when will you find out about the TAG programs in other districts?

I really, really feel for you because our first school also had a terrible principal that refused to allow accommodation for my 2e PG child. We finally moved. Next year (4th grade) will be her first year in a TAG program even though she'd been PG and needed advanced curriculum for years.

Thanks for letting me vent and for giving me a lot to consider. We decided to take the advice here and try the expensive gifted private school for a year and see how it goes.

We recently completed a neuropsych eval (more on that in another post) and the doctor noted my son's anxiety was worse and now he had mild depression. He feels the depression is strongly tied to school.

We have to "right the ship" so we are biting the $18k bullet and enrolling him. My husband and I will have to get new jobs, but so be it. We just wanted him in the best situation to help him with his emotional issues.

Even though this is a great expense, I feel like a huge weight is off of my shoulders. It's funny, I should be worried about paying for this but all I feel is relief. It is a school that understands 2e kids, or so they say. I really want to believe them. I guess we'll see.