Executive function seems to be pretty important (it's one of those things that seems to be conspicuous by its absence). How do I help my gifted 4 year old develop it? Being bilingual seems to help. Anything else parents can do?
At four, my opinion is that the answer is, "not much." Items a kid that age should be working on to develop their EF would include:
- Dressing themselves - with adult input for weather conditions/planned activities
- Hygiene (teeth, self-bathing, washing up before meals, etc)
- Small chores (feed a pet, return their dishes to the sink, gathering their laundry, etc)
One item outside the norm we used with our DD was that, as we travel often, we put her in charge of gathering toys/activities she'd like to have along for the trip. If she didn't grab it, she didn't have it.
I'd also suggest that electronics are a sneaky way of teaching this, because gaining access to the materials the child wants involves a process of some sort, no matter what kind of device we're talking about. If your 4yo can locate a game disc, power on the console, power on the television, switch video inputs, activate the console remote, navigate the on-screen menus, and launch their game, their EF is quite advanced.
Isn't executive function somewhat absent by default in 4 year olds?
2 out of 3 of my kids have great EF, but the skills didn't really start taking shape i a way that was obvious to me until they were around 8-9 years old. When they were 8-9 years old, that's when I started really noticing the differences between my EF-is-intact kids vs my kid who is challenged with EF. At 4, I'd say that for the most part the EF functioning appeared very much at the same level for all three, even though ds definitely had his challenges - they just weren't as obvious as they would become once he was in school.
Best wishes,
polarbear
I figured 4 was early but I want to be ahead of the curve on this one
Executive function seems to be pretty important (it's one of those things that seems to be conspicuous by its absence). How do I help my gifted 4 year old develop it? Being bilingual seems to help. Anything else parents can do?
According to a paper from 2008,
Individual Differences in Executive Functions Are Almost Entirely Genetic in Origin.
Abstract
Recent psychological and neuropsychological research suggests that executive functions — the cognitive control processes that regulate thought and action — are multifaceted and that different types of executive functions are correlated but separable. The present multivariate twin study of three executive functions (inhibiting dominant responses, updating working memory representations, and shifting between task sets), measured as latent variables, examined why people vary in these executive control abilities and why these abilities are correlated but separable from a behavioral genetic perspective. Results indicated that executive functions are correlated because they are influenced by a highly heritable (99%) common factor that goes beyond general intelligence or perceptual speed, and they are separable because of additional genetic influences unique to particular executive functions. This combination of general and specific genetic influences places executive functions among the most heritable psychological traits. These results highlight the potential of genetic approaches for uncovering the biological underpinnings of executive functions and suggest a need for examining multiple types of executive functions to distinguish different levels of genetic influences.
Maybe children with poorer executive function will need to be supervised more closely.
The study you reference does not seem to have been done on the gifted population. It's not clear one can extrapolate to from NT to gifted in any useful way.
The study you reference does not seem to have been done on the gifted population. It's not clear one can extrapolate to from NT to gifted in any useful way.
Such an extrapolation would be my default assumption until proved otherwise.
Here's an activity guide published by the Harvard University Center on the Developing Child. It begins with an overview of EF and then suggests different age related activities for children. It also explains why each activity is helpful to the development of EF.
Enhancing and Practicing Executive Function Skills with Children from Infancy to Adolescence
I think that EF must be genetic in nature as well but I also believe that it can be improved with training, particularly absent major medical issues. I have three children who have varying EF levels despite being brought up in the same home environment. I have one who has exceptionally high EF, one with average EF which seems borderline given his other abilities but who has improved with training, and one with an obvious EF deficit that further deteriorated substantially due to subsequent medical issues.
I had a 6yo DS who was unable to so much as locate and put on his socks without constant parental input, all the while his 2 yo sister was changing her own diaper.
Anyone wants to try and tell me this is NOT genetics?
I have worked with a lot of children and I think EF is a lot like IQ. If you have average IQ, enrichment activities starting early on may raise your scores by a standard deviation but it will be in the same ball park that your genetics would indicate. If you have average EF and you build the skills they may become high average but that is about it. For example, based on scores we have from childhood, I would be HG and have average to high average EF skills I would guess. My husband is MG but has the best EF skills I may have ever seen. I am fairly successful, he is off the charts successful. Leads all sorts of organizations, advanced very quickly at work was an intel science award winner and very successful academically. I did well compared to the general population but he is the one who is really outstanding. Our IQ scores would not indicate this to be the case, I think EF scores are more important than IQ they are just harder to measure so we emphasize IQ scores.
Isn't executive function somewhat absent by default in 4 year olds?
It is lower on average than in older children and adults, but differences in self-control in 4-year-olds on the Marshmallow Test predicted later outcomes. Walter Mischel has a recent book
The Marshmallow Test: Mastering Self-Control (2014).
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/12/marshmallow-test.aspxIn a series of studies that began in the late 1960s and continue today, psychologist Walter Mischel, PhD, found that children who, as 4-year-olds, could resist a tempting marshmallow placed in front of them, and instead hold out for a larger reward in the future (two marshmallows), became adults who were more likely to finish college and earn higher incomes, and were less likely to become overweight.
So what's the lesson to take from this? It's not that the marshmallow test is destiny and that preschoolers who fail it are doomed, Mischel says. Instead, the good news is that the strategies the successful preschoolers used can be taught to people of all ages. By harnessing the power of executive function and self-control strategies, we can all improve our ability to achieve our goals.
I wonder how to reconcile these assertions with the paper I cited finding that differences in executive function are genetic.
I thought the book
Willpower: Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength (2012) by Roy F. Baumeister and John Tierney was good.
I think that EF encompasses so many things. Sure in the studies above you measured impulsivity and delay of gratification. Those skills are very important and I am sure they can be improved. However, things like fluid reasoning, sequential thinking, and working memory (higher order EF) are more innate and are probably more predictive of academic success.
How does one reconcile all this information on Executive Function with the research that says that highly gifted children start out with "a relatively thinner cortex", than peers "that thickened rapidly, peaking by age 11 or 12 before thinning"
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2006/cortex-matures-faster-in-youth-with-highest-iq.shtml"The researchers found that the relationship between cortex thickness and IQ varied with age, particularly in the prefrontal cortex, seat of abstract reasoning, planning, and other "executive" functions".
Based on this research one will expect that most highly gifted children will not demonstrate high EF before the age on 11 or 12 and that most kids with high EF before this age will not be highly gifted kids. I wonder if that is the experience of most parents on this board?
Isn't executive function somewhat absent by default in 4 year olds?
It is lower on average than in older children and adults, but differences in self-control in 4-year-olds on the Marshmallow Test predicted later outcomes. Walter Mischel has a recent book
The Marshmallow Test: Mastering Self-Control (2014).
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/12/marshmallow-test.aspxIn a series of studies that began in the late 1960s and continue today, psychologist Walter Mischel, PhD, found that children who, as 4-year-olds, could resist a tempting marshmallow placed in front of them, and instead hold out for a larger reward in the future (two marshmallows), became adults who were more likely to finish college and earn higher incomes, and were less likely to become overweight.
So what's the lesson to take from this? It's not that the marshmallow test is destiny and that preschoolers who fail it are doomed, Mischel says. Instead, the good news is that the strategies the successful preschoolers used can be taught to people of all ages. By harnessing the power of executive function and self-control strategies, we can all improve our ability to achieve our goals.
I wonder how to reconcile these assertions with the paper I cited finding that differences in executive function are genetic.
I thought the book
Willpower: Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength (2012) by Roy F. Baumeister and John Tierney was good.
And what's even more interesting is follow-ups that have been done with the marshmallow test that find that adults can influence child behavior/impulse control on the marshmallow test with their own behavior. One factor is the reliability of the adult's behavior/promises. In one variant, the adult makes a promise to the child ("I have a big box of art materials that you can use"), and keeps it, while in the alternate condition, the adult breaks the promise ("I'm sorry, it looks like someone borrowed my art box, but you can have these four crayons, instead."). Those children who experienced the reliable adult were able to hold out significantly longer than the children who were disappointed.
These findings are interpreted as meaning that children who experience the world (that is, adult caregivers) as reliable and predictable can afford to delay gratification, while those in unpredictable environments must take what they can, while they can.
Based on this research one will expect that most highly gifted children will not demonstrate high EF before the age on 11 or 12 and that most kids with high EF before this age will not be highly gifted kids. I wonder if that is the experience of most parents on this board?
Well, my DYS daughter just turned 11, and she has made huge leaps in the quality of her executive function in the last few months. So that's consistent, at least.
IIRC, there are quite a few studies showing that EF can be improved with training. One thing I remember because it was so simple is that Simon Says is a good game for improving EF.
FWIW, I don't feel my DD has high EF but she sure aced the hell out of the marshmallow test. (She turned the other way and sang a a song. Done! My son had a harder time--he cried a little, but managed.)
I had a 6yo DS who was unable to so much as locate and put on his socks without constant parental input, all the while his 2 yo sister was changing her own diaper.
Anyone wants to try and tell me this is NOT genetics?
Oh the power of recombinant DNA - LOL
Based on this research one will expect that most highly gifted children will not demonstrate high EF before the age on 11 or 12 and that most kids with high EF before this age will not be highly gifted kids. I wonder if that is the experience of most parents on this board?
Well, my DYS daughter just turned 11, and she has made huge leaps in the quality of her executive function in the last few months. So that's consistent, at least.
I agree.
We
despaired of our 16yo DD ever being able to survive in a college setting back when she was 8 or 9. It was really striking that her EF wasn't as good even as some of her agemates.
Now, it's as good as (and in some regards much better) than her academic peers who are 3-8y older.
Personally, I am just happy that my DD10 got out of bed and went into the kitchen and started making herself breakfast this morning when her alarm clock went off.
We have been working on her becoming more independent lately in anticipation attending a residential camp in July so the alarm clock is one of the tools that we are using.
It used to take dynamite almost to get her out of bed.
Baby steps, baby steps...
Hey, I'm very impressed that your 10yo got herself out of bed and made herself breakfast. My 11yo only does that on weekends!
How does one reconcile all this information on Executive Function with the research that says that highly gifted children start out with "a relatively thinner cortex", than peers "that thickened rapidly, peaking by age 11 or 12 before thinning"
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2006/cortex-matures-faster-in-youth-with-highest-iq.shtml"The researchers found that the relationship between cortex thickness and IQ varied with age, particularly in the prefrontal cortex, seat of abstract reasoning, planning, and other "executive" functions".
Based on this research one will expect that most highly gifted children will not demonstrate high EF before the age on 11 or 12 and that most kids with high EF before this age will not be highly gifted kids. I wonder if that is the experience of most parents on this board?
I've read this before and wondered about it myself! DYS DD9 STILL lacks the EF skills I'd like to see (I'd say she, too, might even lag behind agemates in certain aspects of EF). She probably would have flunked the marshmallow test at 4 (might even flunk it today). Yet, she is clearly bright and high achieving. Her EF, skills, though are enough to keep me up at night worrying. HK and others...what helped???
HK and others...what helped???
I'm sorry to report that for us, nothing really helped but waiting it out. Well, that and maybe adding melatonin so that she would actually sleep at night. I think that she used to be chronically sleep deprived and she isn't any more.
In our case, we coached, and we cajoled, we scaffolded, we scolded, and finally-- we kept placing things under load...
that is, we kept DEMANDING that she use whatever EF she could bring to bear on things in her life.
I think, having worked with late adolescents, that this part of things is the key-- if you do it FOR them, then they may never really develop EF.
(And btw, in support of this hypothesis, I offer the well-known sequelae of special needs parents who "over" parent with the best of intentions, and wind up with adult children who CANNOT manage because they've learned helplessness).
When YOU have to figure it out, and there are consequences for not getting it right... well, that's when you start to use your brain to figure out work-arounds, to exercise those particular skills, reinforce what works, eliminate what doesn't, etc.
I like the two books below, also (in terms of discussing EF, particular detail within that domain, relative strengths and weaknesses, and planning for working with what you have):
Late, Lost, and Unprepared
and
Smart but Scattered
I found both to be helpful to me. The latter more than the former, at least for a NT child.
My DD10 took a quantum leap in EF 18mos ago due to necessity and internal drive. Given the grade skip we'd been working on for years, and facing teachers who were openly prejudiced against her for that skip, expecting her to fail, DD set about proving them wrong. She took control of all her assignments and homework, and managed to get all of it in early or on time, with almost no supervision by DW and I. Since then, she has even pushed us away from helping on spelling/vocabulary studying.
Before then, we had to be active managers of her homework, and especially the more complicated projects, or she'd procrastinate until the last night, then melt down and cry for help.
I have been clinging to that cortex thickness study like a lifeline for 4 years. We've tried everything, and keep on trying. Truly, though, nothing has materially helped DS7.5 with his executive function, particularly in moments when he needs it most. But in the past 6 months, I begin to see a light at the end of the tunnel. I'm hoping that in 12-18 months, we look back and say "phew" - at least a little - rather than saying - "oh, that light at the end of the tunnel was an oncoming train"
.
we had to be active managers of her homework, and especially the more complicated projects, or she'd procrastinate until the last night, then melt down and cry for help.
Yep. Sounds very familiar. She definitely wants to take the reigns on deciding when and how to do assignments (and resists oversight), but she just seems to lack time management skills. Procrastination makes homework a nightmare. Waiting for the quantum leap to happen...
we had to be active managers of her homework, and especially the more complicated projects, or she'd procrastinate until the last night, then melt down and cry for help.
Yep. Sounds very familiar. She definitely wants to take the reigns on deciding when and how to do assignments (and resists oversight), but she just seems to lack time management skills. Procrastination makes homework a nightmare. Waiting for the quantum leap to happen...
Like HK said, it wasn't so much a case of waiting for it to happen, it was her being in a situation where her EF was put under load.
Isn't executive function somewhat absent by default in 4 year olds?
It is lower on average than in older children and adults, but differences in self-control in 4-year-olds on the Marshmallow Test predicted later outcomes. Walter Mischel has a recent book
The Marshmallow Test: Mastering Self-Control (2014).
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/12/marshmallow-test.aspxIn a series of studies that began in the late 1960s and continue today, psychologist Walter Mischel, PhD, found that children who, as 4-year-olds, could resist a tempting marshmallow placed in front of them, and instead hold out for a larger reward in the future (two marshmallows), became adults who were more likely to finish college and earn higher incomes, and were less likely to become overweight.
So what's the lesson to take from this? It's not that the marshmallow test is destiny and that preschoolers who fail it are doomed, Mischel says. Instead, the good news is that the strategies the successful preschoolers used can be taught to people of all ages. By harnessing the power of executive function and self-control strategies, we can all improve our ability to achieve our goals.
I wonder how to reconcile these assertions with the paper I cited finding that differences in executive function are genetic.
I thought the book
Willpower: Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength (2012) by Roy F. Baumeister and John Tierney was good.
And what's even more interesting is follow-ups that have been done with the marshmallow test that find that adults can influence child behavior/impulse control on the marshmallow test with their own behavior. One factor is the reliability of the adult's behavior/promises. In one variant, the adult makes a promise to the child ("I have a big box of art materials that you can use"), and keeps it, while in the alternate condition, the adult breaks the promise ("I'm sorry, it looks like someone borrowed my art box, but you can have these four crayons, instead."). Those children who experienced the reliable adult were able to hold out significantly longer than the children who were disappointed.
These findings are interpreted as meaning that children who experience the world (that is, adult caregivers) as reliable and predictable can afford to delay gratification, while those in unpredictable environments must take what they can, while they can.
I have always thought that test said more about the child's life than anything else. if the child has experienced frequent broken promises or food shortages then eating the marshmallow now is just applying 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush'. And kids from unsettled (or downright abusive) and impoverished homes tend to do less well academically and career wise.
DD has improved, but at the same time, expectations have increased. So, it's a bit of a wash. I can now expect her to do all her regular HW and put it back in her binder without my needing to check her planner or remind her, and she usually remembers about tests (does she study?-maybe, but I leave that to her) but with the huge projects she gets, there's still difficulty planning, managing time, and breaking it down into parts. We have to help her make lists, think about planning, etc or it would implode. I think, but am not sure, that is true for many of her classmates. Also, she constantly starts but does not finish creative projects done for fun. It makes me secretly crazy, but she's always been this way. I keep hoping it will change.
Regarding daily annoyances, we use checklists. Huge help. DD has one on the back of her door that has made bedtime go so much better. Honestly, with her various after school activities, she did have a lot to remember (bring X on this day, Y on that day, Z on this day, but take X out on that day...)
[ it was her being in a situation where her EF was put under load.
The current school clearly isn't going to do this (and we are not in the position to change schools at the moment)...so absent this...have parents created their own load?
Marshmallow test and environment...hmmm, I don't know. 2 DYS in my house, wired completely differently. DD, at 9, could still have trouble with it, while DS perhaps could have passed this at age 2 or so. Same house, attempted to raise them the same way, similar FSIQs ...but just very different from a very, very young age.
I feel like DS8 year old would have easily passed the marshmallow test, as he has no impulse issues, but he is like an absent minded professor. He may very well try to put his underwear on over his pants, forgets to take his backpack when leaving the house, never knows what he is supposed to do for school. So I wonder what the research says about kids having EF issues in some areas but not others.
DD has ADHD and very poor EF ability in pretty much every area. I am hoping to see some sort of magical improvement when puberty hits because right now I feel like there hasn't been much change since age 4.
Her WISC GAI was 150 but she couldn't be much more impaired in terms of EF.
I feel like DS8 year old would have easily passed the marshmallow test, as he has no impulse issues, but he is like an absent minded professor. He may very well try to put his underwear on over his pants, forgets to take his backpack when leaving the house,
My DS7 is like this. Compared to other 7yo boys I know he seems unnaturally high in impulse control, like a much older child, but he leaves his stuff everywhere, puts his shirts on backwards (then laughs heartily upon discovery), and will do things like get into the showe in his underpants. At the time, he completes multistep processes much better than his sister did at this age. I kind of think he just isn't very focused on the mundane?
I feel like DS8 year old would have easily passed the marshmallow test, as he has no impulse issues, but he is like an absent minded professor. He may very well try to put his underwear on over his pants, forgets to take his backpack when leaving the house,
My DS7 is like this. I kind of think he just isn't very focused on the mundane?
Ahh, that's a nice way to put it!
I have a hunch that schools routinely overload EF while under challenging cognitive abilities. Drives me nuts, because really it is the parents who have to be on top of it all to make sure the child doesn't flounder. Yet another way to unfairly prefer high parental SES to the child's innate abilities.
I have a hunch that schools routinely overload EF while under challenging cognitive abilities. Drives me nuts, because really it is the parents who have to be on top of it all to make sure the child doesn't flounder. Yet another way to unfairly prefer high parental SES to the child's innate abilities.
This thread is so interesting. My DS seems to have absolutely no EF and high GAI. Does the underwear, backwards shirt, losing everything as well.
What you've said here, Tigerle, really resonates. I feel I could literally spend the majority of my hours just trying to create the structure needed to organize my son. And I can't, because first and foremost, we have to eat and have a place to live, clean clothes, etc. It seems like most of the time we are firmly entrenched on the bottom tier of Maslow's hierarchy.
I wish I could hire a full-time assistant. Having a lot of money would really make all of this a lot easier.
What you've said here, Tigerle, really resonates. I feel I could literally spend the majority of my hours just trying to create the structure needed to organize my son. And I can't, because first and foremost, we have to eat and have a place to live, clean clothes, etc. It seems like most of the time we are firmly entrenched on the bottom tier of Maslow's hierarchy.
Most families with children have at least some chaos. Don't make the mistake of assuming you're the only one who struggles with this while all the ideal children pick up their socks.
As a family we are not committed to the "perfect structure." Sometimes there are consequences to not knowing where stuff is. (Can't find scout book? no merit badge for you.) Over time people are learning to get it together because *they* want the right consequences. For school we are supporting and allowing only non-critical failures; but for other stuff it's on the kids.
I will say that I was a disorganized scatterbrain until college, and function very well in terms of EF now. So: brains develop.
I have been clinging to that cortex thickness study like a lifeline for 4 years. We've tried everything, and keep on trying. Truly, though, nothing has materially helped DS7.5 with his executive function, particularly in moments when he needs it most. But in the past 6 months, I begin to see a light at the end of the tunnel. I'm hoping that in 12-18 months, we look back and say "phew" - at least a little - rather than saying - "oh, that light at the end of the tunnel was an oncoming train"
.
I've been clinging to it too
I am hoping that they'd have better EF by middle school, but also plan to scaffold the skills they'd need for middle school at home with them before they have to use them on their own then. Things can really fall apart for a child in middle school if their EF is lacking.
My DS9 can be aptly described as the absent minded professor. He'd wear his shirts inside out, red socks on one foot and green socks on the other foot if I'd let him. He always tries to multitask while getting dressed as if getting dressed is too mundane a task to devote any attention to. He is always more interested in what ever he is imagining, reading or talking about than these basic tasks. He doesn't like to be late though, which I think will help him stay on task as he gets older.
While my other DS will never put on his shirt inside out like his brother, he has absolutely no inner sense of time. The time on the clock and the words "hurry up" don't mean much to him either. He simply takes his merry time and doesn't mind getting to places just in time (in some situations he doesn't mind being later either). I am hoping that this will change as he matures, but also considering buying one of the time trackers for kids sold on Amazon to help him have more awareness of time.
I will say that I was a disorganized scatterbrain until college, and function very well in terms of EF now. So: brains develop.
Mine didn't develop until I had children. I keep reminding DS that he never stood a chance, genetically, but we can develop skills like anyone else. :P
My DS9 can be aptly described as the absent minded professor. He'd wear his shirts inside out, red socks on one foot and green socks on the other foot if I'd let him. He always tries to multitask while getting dressed as if getting dressed is too mundane a task to devote any attention to. He is always more interested in what ever he is imagining, reading or talking about than these basic tasks. He doesn't like to be late though, which I think will help him stay on task as he gets older.
Hahahahaha! I know this guy, only he's 12 and lives with me. His underpants were on backwards this morning, he couldn't find his socks, and I'm pretty sure there was smoothie smeared all over his mouth and shirt when I delivered him to school. However--he *did* ask me to gel his hair...so maybe hormones are beginning to titrate and he will develop more awareness.
We ALL hate to be late in my family. I don't want to be the harbinger of gloom, but it has taken a very long time for the effect to have any influence on the cause. I think we've made a teeny tiny bit of progress this year. Now that school is almost out.
I saw an interesting vibrating wristwatch online this morning...with something like 30 built-in reminders you can put on it. Things like "focus" etc. The only problem is it's $60-ish and I predict DS would lose it within a couple of weeks.
I also saw some interesting iPad apps for developing social awareness. But expensive! I have a feeling these things might help for awhile but then the child habituates and you have to introduce new novelty/stimulation. I'm considering applying for a grant.
I do think there's an element of what matters to the child here. Let's think. My son does not care about clothes at all, so arriving at school in a backwards shirt with egg on it and mismatched socks just amuses/bemuses him. DD, who also struggles with EF, would never do this because she is interested in clothes and fashion.
EF is crucial. I tell my kids by upper elementary that they have to apply some of their brain power and energy to EF lest they be perceived as incompetent idiots regardless of their level of cognitive ability. I suppose I can be considered a harsh parent but the world will be far harsher - I have shepherd a kid who was 2E through elementary and quite disabled through high school. Obviously, allowances have to be made when there are clear clinical indications. Short of true pathology, I make my kids responsible for doing what needs to be done and then I let them fail. Of course, I also scaffold everything for them so they can succeed. I also start with potential failures that matter to them. Otherwise, they will simply happily fail. Once they develop EF skills in one area, it is far easier to transfer to another area. Furthermore, it is important that you don't insist on perfect EF for everything - it takes too much brain power and energy. After all, it isn't a big deal if their shirt is inside out once in a while?
Progress was most obvious with my borderline EF kid. With my disabled kid, it was truly baby steps (even when he was just 2E although more consistent/obvious progress back then) and often felt like no progress despite an incredible amount of effort on my part. It was so much faster and easier to just do everything for him and sometimes that's what happened.
OK, OK, I reread the Marshmallow test and DD would have passed (it's been years since I originally read it, forgive me), but not nearly as young as DS would have. But it got me to thinking that what really separates the two of them is extroversion and boldness (DD). Yes, DD also presents as more impulsive, which may be due to the fact that she is a "quick processor." In contrast, DS is more introverted, methodical, and a slower processor with a higher WM.
DD's faster processing speed DOES seem to translate so far into a distinct advantage on timed tests. Time will tell if DS can manage timed tests as well as she can.
Yet despite completely different strengths and weaknesses, they have remarkably similar FSIQs and GAIs.
Really, I'd love to see more studies on HG+ kiddos to sort through all of this.
Yet despite completely different strengths and weaknesses, they have remarkably similar FSIQs and GAIs.
Really, I'd love to see more studies on HG+ kiddos to sort through all of this.
My kids too--really weird. I don't remember my daughter's scores (primarily because she hasn't caused a lot of chaos, yet) but my oldest son had 165 processing speed vs. my younger son's 100. Still all three of have essentially same FSIQ: 144, 146, 143 respectively. I think that is just bizarre.
My oldest is terribly impulsive, has transient tic disorder since age 6, ADHD (impulsive type), and then developed seizures that were very strange in presentation. He also was highly successful all the way through high school (high GPA, high ACT), I think mostly bc it didn't require much of him to succeed.
My younger son, with the relatively slow processing speed is an entirely different story. He has ADHD (inattentive) and has developed no strategies as of yet to address the EF issues.
I wonder how many people have kids with the same FSIQ? I have always been kind of secretly proud of this. Not the actual score, but the fact they are all the same and it seems so anomalous. This is not the sort of thing to discuss in polite company, though.
Not to derail, or anything, but isn't that a bit like being proud of your child's blue eyes?
I mean, there's a reason why it's not something to discuss in polite company, I'm thinking-- if I were to announce that I'm "proud" of my DD's cognitive potential (blue eyes), should my (very) good friends whose child has trisomy (brown eyes) be "ashamed" of theirs?
I'm sort of thinking not. It's nothing that any of us did, after all. It's a genetic hand we were dealt, more or less.
I'm also really leery of giving DD the notion that she is entitled to anything as a result, or that her innate inborn potential is anything which reflects upon her worth in any way. Better to have her efforts do so.
Hope that doesn't come across as snarky. I'm just noting that this is the kind of thing that strikes a lot of parents of normative NT kids as "elitist" or something worse.
Nah, I get what you mean--that's why I said "not of the score itself." It's the SAME-ness of it that strikes me. It's just odd and quirky--like the fact two of them are lefties, even though neither parent is. Proud isn't the right word, exactly...but I can't think of the best descriptor.
My daughter asked if I was proud of her for getting into gifted MS program and I said more or less what you've just said. I told her I was happy for her.
No snark inferred. Frankly, I'd be a whole lot more relaxed if I had three kids with fewer complicated issues. I guess I'm just sorta fascinated by the IQ piece. Especially how it all kinda averages out, even though the kids are very different from one another.
I do understand. I am kind of
enthralled/piqued/ensnared by my DD's (striking) eye color.
It
is an unusual thing about her, and it makes her
herself.
I do understand. I am kind of
enthralled/piqued/ensnared by my DD's (striking) eye color.
It
is an unusual thing about her, and it makes her
herself.
M'kay, I'm going with piqued.
Not to derail, or anything, but isn't that a bit like being proud of your child's blue eyes?
I mean, there's a reason why it's not something to discuss in polite company, I'm thinking-- if I were to announce that I'm "proud" of my DD's cognitive potential (blue eyes), should my (very) good friends whose child has trisomy (brown eyes) be "ashamed" of theirs?
I'm sort of thinking not. It's nothing that any of us did, after all. It's a genetic hand we were dealt, more or less.
One's choice of spouse affects the distribution of the cards dealt. The smarter the person you marry, the smarter your children will be on average. I am pleased to have three bright children, and when I was dating I filtered on education and occupation to increase the chance of that happening.
It may not be polite to talk about, but who is having the children makes a profound difference to society.
I will say that I was a disorganized scatterbrain until college, and function very well in terms of EF now. So: brains develop.
Mine didn't develop until I had children. I keep reminding DS that he never stood a chance, genetically, but we can develop skills like anyone else. :P
My DS9 can be aptly described as the absent minded professor. He'd wear his shirts inside out, red socks on one foot and green socks on the other foot if I'd let him. He always tries to multitask while getting dressed as if getting dressed is too mundane a task to devote any attention to. He is always more interested in what ever he is imagining, reading or talking about than these basic tasks. He doesn't like to be late though, which I think will help him stay on task as he gets older.
Hahahahaha! I know this guy, only he's 12 and lives with me. His underpants were on backwards this morning, he couldn't find his socks, and I'm pretty sure there was smoothie smeared all over his mouth and shirt when I delivered him to school. However--he *did* ask me to gel his hair...so maybe hormones are beginning to titrate and he will develop more awareness.
We ALL hate to be late in my family. I don't want to be the harbinger of gloom, but it has taken a very long time for the effect to have any influence on the cause. I think we've made a teeny tiny bit of progress this year. Now that school is almost out.
This thread has me confused about what EF is? My son was diagnose with low EF. Yet he has no problems getting to school on time with everything he needs for school. At 16 I don't have to remind him, and even in junior high he only forgot things at what I'd expect would be a normal rate. He doesn't lose stuff and I was thinking just yesterday while his room isn't particularly neat he does put his stuff 'away' in his room ever day and can find things.
What he has problems with is organizing his time for homework. Keeping track of what homework is due at what time. Breaking up a long term project into manageable chunks. Or catching when a teacher announces orally, please finish and turn in tomorrow. It's more abstract with concepts & idea's not really related to 'things'.
Based solely on amateur reading - I understand EF as "things governed by the prefrontal cortex that relate to executing the functions of life in a constructive way." This covers everything from impulse control, to organizing tasks, to managing emotions, to remembering that eating and sleeping are useful and not a "total waste of time" as DS7 puts it.
Impulse control/managing emotions is where DS7 struggles. As I said above though - seems to be improving lately. Fingers crossed!
Experts - is that what EF is?
Sue
I'm no expert but here is something I found when I was trying to conceptualize my son's issues:
http://files.campus.edublogs.org/bl.../List-of-Executive-Functions-169lmt8.pdfList of Executive Functions
Response Inhibition—The capacity to think before you act, to resist the urge to say or do something to allow the time to evaluate a situation and the impact of the what is said or done.
Emotional control—The ability to manage emotions to achieve goals, complete tasks, or control and direct behavior.
Task initiation—The ability to begin a task or activity and to independently generate ideas, responses, or problem solving strategies.
Organization—The ability to create and maintain systems to keep track of information or materials.
Goal-directed persistence—The capacity to have a goal, follow through to the completion of the goal, and not be put off by or distracted by competing interests.
Metacognition—The ability to observe how you problem solve. It includes self-monitoring and self-evaluative skills.
Self-Monitoring—Recognizing what is going on inside your own mind, body, environment, and relationships.
Self-evaluative skills—The capacity to evaluate how well you did and to make good decisions about how to proceed.
Working Memory—The ability to hold information in memory while performing complex tasks. It incorporates the ability to draw on past learning or experience to apply to the situation at hand or to project into the future.
Sustained attention—The capacity to keep paying attention to a situation or task in spite of distractibility, fatigue, or boredom.
Planning/prioritization—The ability to manage future oriented tasks.
Time management—The ability to estimate how much time you have, how to allocate it, and how to stay within time limits and deadlines.
Flexibility—The ability to revise plans in the face of obstacles, setbacks, new information, or mistakes. It relates to an adaptability to changing conditions.
Shifting—The ability to move freely from one situation, activity, or aspect of a problem to another, in reaction to internal or external cues.
I'm no expert but here is something I found when I was trying to conceptualize my son's issues:
http://files.campus.edublogs.org/bl.../List-of-Executive-Functions-169lmt8.pdfList of Executive Functions
Response Inhibition—The capacity to think before you act, to resist the urge to say or do something to allow the time to evaluate a situation and the impact of the what is said or done.
Emotional control—The ability to manage emotions to achieve goals, complete tasks, or control and direct behavior.
Task initiation—The ability to begin a task or activity and to independently generate ideas, responses, or problem solving strategies.
Organization—The ability to create and maintain systems to keep track of information or materials.
Goal-directed persistence—The capacity to have a goal, follow through to the completion of the goal, and not be put off by or distracted by competing interests.
Metacognition—The ability to observe how you problem solve. It includes self-monitoring and self-evaluative skills.
Self-Monitoring—Recognizing what is going on inside your own mind, body, environment, and relationships.
Self-evaluative skills—The capacity to evaluate how well you did and to make good decisions about how to proceed.
Working Memory—The ability to hold information in memory while performing complex tasks. It incorporates the ability to draw on past learning or experience to apply to the situation at hand or to project into the future.
Sustained attention—The capacity to keep paying attention to a situation or task in spite of distractibility, fatigue, or boredom.
Planning/prioritization—The ability to manage future oriented tasks.
Time management—The ability to estimate how much time you have, how to allocate it, and how to stay within time limits and deadlines.
Flexibility—The ability to revise plans in the face of obstacles, setbacks, new information, or mistakes. It relates to an adaptability to changing conditions.
Shifting—The ability to move freely from one situation, activity, or aspect of a problem to another, in reaction to internal or external cues.
This is helpful. I can see a number of things my son has/had difficulty with. From Emotional Control, Task Initiation, Organization of information, he has low Working Memory, and Sustained Attention problems due to boredom.
This seems like a huge and complex list. If we go back to the OP's question there is probably not one thing to be done to help develop EF as it covers a large number of skills. I'm not sure teaching a child to keep their toys organized will necessary help them learn emotional control for example.
Boy, what an interesting list! I see things that are huge STRENGTHS for my DD and others that are major issues for her. I guess what I might glean from that is that whatever her issue it is, EF is not the primary thing affected.
As far as my DS goes, he seems pretty typical for most of it except that this one:
Organization—The ability to create and maintain systems to keep track of information or materials.
is not so great on the "materials" part. He's also not so great on Task Initiation when it comes to homework, but IDK if I can say much there because it's boring as heck and he's 7.
"I'm not sure teaching a child to keep their toys organized will necessary help them learn emotional control for example."
Exactly. As I've learned about the development of EF, and how it is based in the development of the brain, I've come to realize why my son struggles so. We are asking him, in so many ways, to see before his eyes are even open.
Fascinating topic.
DD and I took an executive function skills class and we reviewed this whole list. My takeaway is that some items are strengths and some are weaknesses -- for everyone.
DD for example, has always been excellent at the metacognition, self-monitoring / evaluating types of skills (to an almost problematic degree). Her emotional control is crap though, something she gets from me.
I was really disorganized until college, now I organize things for a living (I'm a PM). But my emotional control is still one of my biggest challenges.
Working memory is an EF skill and yet it's also highly correlated with IQ. DD has a super high working memory, but has a terrible time with flexibility.
I think the caution is to be careful of treating EF skills like one thing.
There are books that help you, or your child, figure out their EF strengths and weaknesses and then give you ideas on how to gain better skills in your weaker areas. One of these is Smart but Scattered. The other popular book title is escaping me at this time!
I found them quite helpful in understanding what EF are and aren't and what my own strengths and weaknesses are, and my child's. It really is very interesting when you get into it. At least I think so
I was really disorganized until college, now I organize things for a living (I'm a PM). But my emotional control is still one of my biggest challenges.
PM=Program Manager? Tangent: how did you get into this career?
Ivy,
What was the class and where was it offered?
Would you mind sharing the details, please?
I have always thought of EF as being an innate skill. DD wakes herself up, checks the weather, picks out her clothes, makes her breakfast (cereal, toaster waffles etc) by herself and has done so since kindergarten. She is completely responsible for her homework and studying for tests (i don't even glance at them). If she needs extra help studying for a test she will let us know. She has never had behavior issues (very minor and only at home), keeps her room clean by herself and has been this way as long as I can remember. I am sure she gets it from her dad but it is interesting to watch. I certainly can't think of anything that I have done that would have improved her EF.
madeinuk, it was a local class in the Pacific Northwest. I PMd you some additional details.
DeeDee, PM is project or program manager. I sent you a PM (private message -- acronym clash) with more information.
I think the caution is to be careful of treating EF skills like one thing.
Good point. Also: my hunch is some of these are easier to manage than others. Physical organization, for instance. There are many external ways to encourage this--most adults figure out systems that work for them, overall.
The one I related most to is "sustained attention." I've never figured out how to prevent myself from daydreaming and checking out when I'm not engaged. I've always marveled at folks who can listen and take notes on boring, repetitive materials. Not me...I go into my "happy place." Ha! Pretty sure my son is the same way...I've always said he has a "very active internal life."
I do think that this might be an "outside-in" process for people who struggle in many of these areas. i.e., developing and managing external structure might be the place to start flexing these muscles--maybe the skills are transferable?
Even my son, who is woefully weak in many of these areas, doesn't appear to have deficits in all of them. He also has a strong WM (for facts and information, not necessarily instructions), and doesn't usually have much difficulty managing emotions. However--I think he internalizes his emotions and that causes its own set of issues.
As for physical structure: I *know* I function a lot better in every single one of these areas if my surroundings are peaceful, uncluttered, and organized. And when all my ducks are in a row. Maintaining that level of structure is very difficult, though.
Taking notes is one of my ways to force myself to stay engaged on those hideous, time suck and almost neglible value add meetings - maybe for them too LOL
I think when WM is discussed in terms of EF, they aren't talking about the WISC type of WM. DD did very well on the WISC working memory section but if you ask her to get her shoes and then find her backpack she forgets what she's doing as she's going to get her shoes.
The one I related most to is "sustained attention." I've never figured out how to prevent myself from daydreaming and checking out when I'm not engaged. I've always marveled at folks who can listen and take notes on boring, repetitive materials. Not me...I go into my "happy place." Ha! Pretty sure my son is the same way...I've always said he has a "very active internal life."
You can make your notes look like this:
https://www.zentangle.com/
Crack me up! I wrote the part about doodling before looking here. If only mine were so pretty--they do have some similarities, though! My son is currently obsessively drawing characters for card games he invents...complete with descriptions of their powers, etc., rules for the game. His are much more purposeful than mine, at least. If his backpack is any indication, this is where he spends the majority of his "sustained attention." :P
Taking notes is one of my ways to force myself to stay engaged on those hideous, time suck and almost neglible value add meetings - maybe for them too LOL
I always start out strong...my notes turn into doodles. My son's backpack is filled to the brim with intricate drawings...something about the apple not falling far from the tree?
I think when WM is discussed in terms of EF, they aren't talking about the WISC type of WM. DD did very well on the WISC working memory section but if you ask her to get her shoes and then find her backpack she forgets what she's doing as she's going to get her shoes.
Parallel universe...
My son can take 15 minutes just putting on socks/shoes. Even when he's excited to go somewhere. Maddening.
I have always thought of EF as being an innate skill.
From my own anecdotal observations of my own DC (and until we have more studies of HG+ plus children), a natural strength in EF is innate. I would tend to agree, though, that it is probably something that also can be developed. In the case of the studies mentioned upthread, I do hope to see brain development kick in. In the meantime, though, I hope to help DD, in particular, develop her EF skills.
One trait on her side is extreme independence. She does NOT want me monitoring her homework completion, project planning, etc. To avoid that, I have seen her trying to get them done so that I am not checking on her. So that may hasten the process.
And now I've spent the last 10 minutes obsessing over the zentangle kit. I want one.
It's becoming pretty clear to me my son never stood a chance in terms of EF. Kind of hard to support a skill one doesn't have oneself.
One trait on her side is extreme independence. She does NOT want me monitoring her homework completion, project planning, etc. To avoid that, I have seen her trying to get them done so that I am not checking on her. So that may hasten the process.
I agree, some of their other traits might motivate them to self-direct more. My DD is kind of a space-cadet, like the whole family. But she is also driven, competitive, and socially aware (people/teacher-pleaser). I think wanting to *shine* has helped her develop some of her EF that isn't natural to her.
I wish my son wanted to *shine* but he is not motivated by that.
Tangle Tangent -- DD had a ZenTangle class at her school and said she found it really relaxing and soothing.
I find that doodling helps me to focus on otherwise boring content.
DDs EF skills in some areas have massively improved. Her room is now neater than ours and she's good about organizing her papers. On the other hand, she'd forget her head if it wasn't attached.