Just a little?

All year ds13 has had to deal with a math teacher who, for whatever reason, puts the kids down. This is an advanced, compacted class, (8th grade and High school Math I) that goes at a quick pace. She'll say things to the kids in front of the other kids, like "You're lazy." or "You're not that good in math." Earlier in the year, she called my ds out for making a mistake and somebody laughed. DS was mortified. She told a friend's son "You won't be going on to math at the high school."
Fortunately and unfortunately, she's pregnant, which means her negative presence has been sporadic, but so has her teaching.


Our ds13 is getting prepared to register for high school. The process begins with the teachers making recommendations for honors or regular classes. All of ds's teachers recommended he take honors except for his math teacher. She told him that his lack of attention to detail would mean that honors math would be too difficult for him. He was crushed.

I've read that the last thing you want to do is hold kids like ds back in math over things like careless mistakes. That they will develop those skills as they mature but they need the higher level thinking.

This is a kid who, because he was grade-skipped, essentially learned four years of math in two. Yes, he doesn't go back and check his work, especially his homework which he rushes through, but we've been trying to teach him how to manage these things on his own by gently stepping back. Overall, he's still doing fine. He's not failing the class. He received Bs the first two quarters and a C this quarter. In all of his other courses he's received all As for the past two years. He slipped in one other class this quarter, because of time management issues. Again, if we don't back off a little so he can feel the consequences of blowing things off in 8th grade, before it counts, then how is he supposed to learn?

Ds is also in an advanced ELA class, and apparently some of the kids with him weren't selected for honors English. These are not kids who are failing. These are bright kids. When my eldest went through high school, kids weren't expected to be perfect in order to be selected for honors classes.

In the end, we have the last word. He wants to take the honors and we fully support that. In fact, I think it would be foolish to hold him back and potentially hinder the rest of his high school years. It's not easy to get into honors if you didn't start out that way.

All this is to say, I believe he had a bad teacher this year who was mired in a lot of negativity. I think this is bit of "You think you're so smart? Well, I'll show you that you're not." What if we weren't paying attention, what if we bought her advice hook and line? How many other kids are being told, bluntly and through inference, that they're not good at math and it's too hard for them?

Vent over. Thank you.

Oh, and I will be writing a letter about her negativity once he's nearly done. She's proven in the past to be vindictive. When I asked her about something she'd done she went to my ds the next day and berated him for saying something and "misunderstanding" what she said.

It sounds like he does have a very negative teacher and I don't see how belittling students could be helpful. However, from the perspective of a teacher and a parent of an HG+ student, I would not necessarily discount her recommendation. You said your DS has made two B's and a C this year and is accelerated. To me, it sounds like he may be in the right place. Honors is generally not just for students who can conceptualize advanced math but also for students who pay close attention to detail and produce excellent work. Sometimes that takes superior EF skills and often these skills mature with age, your DS just may not be there yet. Potential is not performance and having experienced this issue from both sides I have found that discounting what the teacher says is not always the best idea. There tends to be a grain of truth in everyone's perspective. Good luck with your choice and sorry that your DS has been subjected to such a negative teacher.

Sallymom, thank you for your perspective.

DS used to be so meticulous it would slow him down and everyone (including me) would say hurry up. I think his perfectionist tendencies have been cured.

To put things in perspective, this is a class whose tests may have ten to fifteen problems. Homework: average of five problems. You get one wrong, and well, you see how easily the grade can shift downward.

Though, I agree with you, the teacher may believe she's doing the right thing, I'm going to respectfully disagree with the idea to direct him to basic math. Executive skills and details are important to math, yes, but I have faith they will come. He's young. I don't believe in telling a highly able student that an honors level class is beyond him because he's still making careless mistakes. Carefulness will come...or it won't. But I wouldn't close doors so soon.

ETA: Of course, you could be absolutely right and ds could be setting himself up for a disaster. Urg.

Are the only options basic math (what is that in this context?) and this honors course?

The options are

High school Math I (he's taking this now combined w/ 8th)
High school Math II
High school Math II honors
High school Math III honors

I think you and your son need to go with your gut on placement. While I wouldn't ignore the teacher, her critiques do not sound very constructive or professional. Her job is not just to find the students' errors, but to nurture their young minds...what is she doing to HELP them develop?

It's hard for kids to find that happy medium between working efficiently and carefully. DD has a "quick brain," so I am CONSTANTLY reminding her to double-check her work on tests. She tends to make MORE errors in math when she finds something easy. When she double-checks, she gets amazing results. I think that it is great that he has moved away from perfectionism...hopefully, this will allow him to not be afraid to try challenging material in the future. Perfectionism really does have a downside.

Yes, vent away! We understand! I would find this frustrating, too.

Thank you, both for your understanding and your feedback. Of course, now I am second-guessing myself, which is surprising since I was so certain. The game of high school is NOT the same as developing a love of learning so there's that truth to contend with. I don't want DS to be set up for failure which ever way he goes.

Hi KADmom, we have a semi-similar situation going on with our ds15, who is a freshman in high school. I don't want to post the specifics on the public part of this forum but if you're interested you can pm me.

FWIW, I think it's important to place a student in the class where they are intellectually capable, and put accommodations in place to make it possible for them to be in that class. I wouldn't automatically toss out this teacher's concerns, but I'd try to filter out the annoying-teacher part of it, consider that she's seem some issues with attention to detail, and he's had some issues you've noted with time management. Rather than assuming those challenges will simply go away at some point, I'd put him in the honors class and support him in some way to help him learn how to work through or around them. You might not be able to put any supports in place at school, but there are things you can do as a parent to help support developing these types of skills.

I'd also be sure to ask your ds what he wants to do next year.

Best wishes!

polarbear

Thank you, Polar Bear. Yes, we do plan on supporting him, in the ways he needs until he can take over.

He wants to take the honors class, which is why, I guess, I'm adamant that doors not be closed. But I also don't want him to drown either.

I will pm right now. Thank you!

Why do teachers do this? Drag down the brightest students and tell them they are failures if they don't get everything PERFECT. My DS16's freshman algebra II teacher also made a class of the best and brightest math students feel they weren't good students. I had to keep reminded my son that he was years ahead of most students and how he did in once class wouldn't matter in the long run.

I think you should ignore the teacher. In my book, she lost credibility when she started publicly shaming her students. It sounds like she has some kind of ego problem. Such a shame your son and others had to put up with her this year.

However, I would have a bit of a hesitation putting my son in an honors class in HS if he was getting Bs and Cs going into it. Remember in 9th grade, the grades start to count and I would be concerned about that. What does your son say about the C? Does he understand everything? Or is it obvious the mistakes he's making are trivial, but add up to lots of points lost? It's very possible he's just not careful enough, but it's still worth a pause to make sure honors is the right placement.

Will High School Math II not let him take High School Math III with honors? My son was dropped out of the honors level this year in high school but he is still accelerated. He is getting A's rather than C+'s last year and will still have the ability to take BC Calculus next year. It's honestly been good for his ego and made him feel better about math. The blip of being in the non honors class won't really affect much in the long run. The hardest part is the class isn't with what he think of as "his" peers but rather a group of older students. I would defiantly have him take Math II. But I would look at what the differences really are between the honors and non-honors course.

Bluemagic, I'm sorry your son experienced this. My ds was crushed until we reminded him that he gets to choose, and reminded him of his successes. He's young but he's made tremendous growth.

I do not like to complain about teachers. They have one of the hardest, least appreciated jobs there is to have. But when one uses techniques like this one does, and perhaps she feels it's "tough love," and could potentially cause or exacerbate math anxiety, I think something should be said.

Yes, DH and I plan on meeting with the high school counselor. Hopefully she can shed some light on the situation.

When the math teacher started missing days of teaching because of pregnancy, we hired a tutor. This woman is a retired Calculus teacher and works part time at the local college. She's worked with ds once a week for six weeks. (He still didn't check over his homework. Ha!) Not a tremendous amount of time but she felt confident in recommending that he go into honors.

No doubt about that. But, with their job also comes "responsibility" - to uplift a student intellectually and not to beat them down when they tend to do well.

Your son is accelerated so much because he is good at math, obviously. So, there is no reason to hold him back. If I were you, I would let him work on his weak areas in the summer (practicing error checking, slowing down and reviewing work). Go for it!

This is the part of you post that really struck me - a critical life lesson so many of us fail to learn, or learn when the stakes are much too high. Do you feel like this is a lot of what's been going on? And do you feel like he's coming out of the year recognizing, "OK Mom, point taken"?

Because if you think that's the case, you're dealing less with math-readiness than responsibility-readiness, and it sounds like you are working well on the latter. So my two cents would be to think hard about which it is: his current math skills or instead his executive function skills which are being over-stretched by this class. Then place and support him next year accordingly, recognizing that generally, more challenging work provides a better environment to encourage strengthening work skills.

Thanks, Ashley.

Thanks, MichelleC. Yes, I think with the spotty instruction this year, it may be a bit of both, but much more, responsibility. His school passed out chrome books to all the students in January and suddenly the teachers were giving out three times as much homework (they most likely were directed to do so by the county office). Not only that, but all communication about homework was communicated via computer so if the student didn't check he could find himself very behind, very quickly.

Many, many students' grades plummeted after the computers were handed out. There's actually going to be a meeting about it at the county level.

Even so, if these are the new expectations, we expect ds will grow to meet them.

Also, I've been thinking about changes the local high school (and the whole state) will adopt for next year's high school students. Our 7 point scale will be changing to a 10 point scale. They're also cutting the weighting system. So next year an A in a non-honors course will count as a 4; honors, 4.5; and AP and/or college, 5. There used to be a full point between them with the exception of college which was less than AP.

It seems then, given this new system in which it's harder to stand out, that taking the more challenging courses would be beneficial.