Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/22/14 05:46 AM
... Thanks again
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/22/14 06:40 AM
Hi... I'm still new so still learning my way around so sorry if I say something wrong or something...
My first thought would be: how sure are you that she isn't going to cope with that material..? I'm not in the US or UK and was never identified as "gifted", but I read way ahead. A lot of the more mature content went over my head to start, and later when it stopped going over my head, yes I was uncomfortable, because I'm still a "sensitive viewer" type person with very good visualisation skills/overactive imagination, but when a matric/12th grade teacher handed me the matric set work in grade 8/9, I'd already been exposed to most of the "mature" content a few times.
No, it's not the same - there's a big gap between 14 and 11, I get that... but if she's been reading ahead of her age for a while, she may have already come up against some of the topics they're going to cover?
I'd maybe just try check in with her first and get her to weigh in how comfortable she really is vs how much she really wants to do that class - the great thing is that class will still be there in a year or two, and while you can always push something out a little, you can't take it back once it's done.
Not an easy situation
Hope you find a good middle ground!
My first thought would be: how sure are you that she isn't going to cope with that material..? I'm not in the US or UK and was never identified as "gifted", but I read way ahead. A lot of the more mature content went over my head to start, and later when it stopped going over my head, yes I was uncomfortable, because I'm still a "sensitive viewer" type person with very good visualisation skills/overactive imagination, but when a matric/12th grade teacher handed me the matric set work in grade 8/9, I'd already been exposed to most of the "mature" content a few times.
No, it's not the same - there's a big gap between 14 and 11, I get that... but if she's been reading ahead of her age for a while, she may have already come up against some of the topics they're going to cover?
I'd maybe just try check in with her first and get her to weigh in how comfortable she really is vs how much she really wants to do that class - the great thing is that class will still be there in a year or two, and while you can always push something out a little, you can't take it back once it's done.
Not an easy situation
Hope you find a good middle ground!
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/22/14 11:28 AM
There are topics that 14 year old kids read that are not appropriate for the younger set. DD9 switched to the public school this past year, and the teacher quickly noted her reading skills. Lexile level (reading with comprehension) around 9th grade. However, teacher noted that while she can read (and understand) books at that level, that doesn't mean she should be reading just any book at that level. Teacher screened what she was reading to ensure the content was appropriate.
There are even rather low lexile books that deal with very mature topics. For example, there are books that deal with the Holocaust that are in the lexile level 400-600 range. That doesn't mean that 7 and 8 year old kids should read those books, only that they would comprehend.
The good news is that there are plenty of books out there, and many have appropriate content. My middle kid often laments the push (by teachers I guess, it wasn't me) to read higher level books at a young age. She says that she missed out on a lot of "classics" that most other kids read, and she will go back and read them someday (perhaps when she is an adult - she is 16 now).
Good luck with your decision.
There are even rather low lexile books that deal with very mature topics. For example, there are books that deal with the Holocaust that are in the lexile level 400-600 range. That doesn't mean that 7 and 8 year old kids should read those books, only that they would comprehend.
The good news is that there are plenty of books out there, and many have appropriate content. My middle kid often laments the push (by teachers I guess, it wasn't me) to read higher level books at a young age. She says that she missed out on a lot of "classics" that most other kids read, and she will go back and read them someday (perhaps when she is an adult - she is 16 now).
Good luck with your decision.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/22/14 12:34 PM
Over the years, many parents have expressed concern regarding their teacher's/school's/district's reading list, especially when it comes to themes of dystopias, man's inhumanity to man, horror, sex, and certain treatment of death.
Parents are sometimes successful in composing and suggesting an alternate reading list. Some thoughts to consider include: What is the teacher or curriculum trying to accomplish? Why were specific titles chosen for the reading list? What other authors/titles might include the same essential teachable elements? For example, in desiring students to gain a new perspective, or in desiring students to become familiar with famous authors of literature, there are many positive books to read.
You may wish to begin research now, then propose meaningful alternatives as appropriate "differentiation". Some parents have used the website "Every Good Book" as one resource to find alternate titles, with good results. On the "Every Good Book" website, one may find books one wishes to avoid, and next to them may be listed titles which a parent deems appropriate alternatives.
Some teachers/schools/districts now offer a more extensive reading list from which students choose the required number of books; Students gain internal locus of control when making personal choices regarding their education, including which books to read.
Good luck with this... it can be done!
Parents are sometimes successful in composing and suggesting an alternate reading list. Some thoughts to consider include: What is the teacher or curriculum trying to accomplish? Why were specific titles chosen for the reading list? What other authors/titles might include the same essential teachable elements? For example, in desiring students to gain a new perspective, or in desiring students to become familiar with famous authors of literature, there are many positive books to read.
You may wish to begin research now, then propose meaningful alternatives as appropriate "differentiation". Some parents have used the website "Every Good Book" as one resource to find alternate titles, with good results. On the "Every Good Book" website, one may find books one wishes to avoid, and next to them may be listed titles which a parent deems appropriate alternatives.
Some teachers/schools/districts now offer a more extensive reading list from which students choose the required number of books; Students gain internal locus of control when making personal choices regarding their education, including which books to read.
Good luck with this... it can be done!
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/22/14 04:13 PM
Thank you so much for your support and input.
...
What prompted my post is just the disconnect between where we're at and what we're dealing with and where the vast majority of people are at. It's just an ongoing challenge.
...
What prompted my post is just the disconnect between where we're at and what we're dealing with and where the vast majority of people are at. It's just an ongoing challenge.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/22/14 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ivy
Well, this is a new one for me. I've posted here before on our long battle to advocate for DD11 and the great place we find ourselves now. DD has permission to take almost any class for any age and has been very happy.
She was looking forward to taking her first high school level classes this fall. However I now find myself in the odd position of advocating backwards... encouraging her to take middle school literature again. Not because of her academic level, but because of the books the high school class is reading.
We've never been much for sheltering her, but some of the books have inappropriate content for her age. I don't think she'd do well with them and she can't very well read a different book and then sit in class discussions.
This is not the end of the world. She can either take the MS class or sit out on lit and just take the high school writing. We could continue our mini-book club (we read the same book and discuss). My degree is in English, so we can have some very academic discussion and delve into schools of literary criticism. It's not like she's BEHIND here in any case.
It's just that... well, it never stops being challenging. A mismatch. No matter how great the situation is, it's still the least worst option. It's still more work and planning and stress (on her and us) than if she was just in grade. She's nervous about taking classes with much older kids and having much harder work (she'll have her first AP class). At the same time she's disappointed that she can't take the class she was most looking forward to and where she really shines.
But she's still 11 and needs to be allowed to be 11 too.
Note, I'm not complaining about the class. A class at that level should include challenging and thought provoking material and I can't fault the choices.
She really wants to move forward because while last year was better, she still wasn't being really challenged. But as she pushes herself, we have to watch out for her. Make sure it's not too much too soon. But since she's been held back to much in the past, we don't want to do it if we don't have to.
I just don't have anywhere else to talk about this stuff, you know? This is way outside the experience of most people. My friends with kids are thinking about the trials of middle school. We're soothing the jittery nerves of a quasi-Freshman and nervously eyeing the physical differences between her and her friends (who are only two years or so older - not nearly the age difference she'll see in her classes).
Phew. I feel a bit better now. Thanks for "listening."
She was looking forward to taking her first high school level classes this fall. However I now find myself in the odd position of advocating backwards... encouraging her to take middle school literature again. Not because of her academic level, but because of the books the high school class is reading.
We've never been much for sheltering her, but some of the books have inappropriate content for her age. I don't think she'd do well with them and she can't very well read a different book and then sit in class discussions.
This is not the end of the world. She can either take the MS class or sit out on lit and just take the high school writing. We could continue our mini-book club (we read the same book and discuss). My degree is in English, so we can have some very academic discussion and delve into schools of literary criticism. It's not like she's BEHIND here in any case.
It's just that... well, it never stops being challenging. A mismatch. No matter how great the situation is, it's still the least worst option. It's still more work and planning and stress (on her and us) than if she was just in grade. She's nervous about taking classes with much older kids and having much harder work (she'll have her first AP class). At the same time she's disappointed that she can't take the class she was most looking forward to and where she really shines.
But she's still 11 and needs to be allowed to be 11 too.
Note, I'm not complaining about the class. A class at that level should include challenging and thought provoking material and I can't fault the choices.
She really wants to move forward because while last year was better, she still wasn't being really challenged. But as she pushes herself, we have to watch out for her. Make sure it's not too much too soon. But since she's been held back to much in the past, we don't want to do it if we don't have to.
I just don't have anywhere else to talk about this stuff, you know? This is way outside the experience of most people. My friends with kids are thinking about the trials of middle school. We're soothing the jittery nerves of a quasi-Freshman and nervously eyeing the physical differences between her and her friends (who are only two years or so older - not nearly the age difference she'll see in her classes).
Phew. I feel a bit better now. Thanks for "listening."
Good luck at finding an appropriate literature class for your daughter.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/22/14 06:30 PM
Just following-- my DS7 is in a similar boat. His comprehension and decoding skills are many years above age. Most of those stories however, are "school stories" or children dealing with a variety of circumstances that would cause him to worry (divorce, homelessness, disabilities, etc.). It took some digging but we came up with books that have hard text and easier, sillier themes that appeal to the seven year old.
Sometimes, he reverts back to some "easier" books (both text and theme)- I'm fine with that as long as he is enjoying the book. I'm the same way, sometimes I want something difficult that makes me think, and sometimes I want formulaic "fluff" (usually as a "rest" after the the difficult book).
First grade has been the year that we saw a lot of mismatches. Thank goodness for this forum.
Sometimes, he reverts back to some "easier" books (both text and theme)- I'm fine with that as long as he is enjoying the book. I'm the same way, sometimes I want something difficult that makes me think, and sometimes I want formulaic "fluff" (usually as a "rest" after the the difficult book).
First grade has been the year that we saw a lot of mismatches. Thank goodness for this forum.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/28/14 07:20 PM
Just an update. DD and I agreed that we'd do a home brew lit class together. First term will be LOTR (which, despite much prompting, she hasn't read yet). The second term will be classics. The third term is yet undecided.
Looks like I'll finally get some use out of my BA in English (literary criticism for the win!). Instead of weekly homework, we will work through the steps of creating a researched term paper -- based on the books and due at the end of the term.
I also found a ton of great stuff online for teaching LOTR (lots of supporting material, though I find the analysis a little shallow).
I love some of the online class suggestions, but honestly, she's planning on taking SO many other classes that I'm not sure she can handle any more external stuff.
Looks like I'll finally get some use out of my BA in English (literary criticism for the win!). Instead of weekly homework, we will work through the steps of creating a researched term paper -- based on the books and due at the end of the term.
I also found a ton of great stuff online for teaching LOTR (lots of supporting material, though I find the analysis a little shallow).
I love some of the online class suggestions, but honestly, she's planning on taking SO many other classes that I'm not sure she can handle any more external stuff.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/28/14 08:19 PM
We had this problem in sixth grade. My daughter's Lexile score was so high that there were no books in the school library she could read. They had a rule that they had to read in their Lexile level. Even the books in the town library were unacceptable books - mostly adult history books.
I actually advocated to have her read lower books. I did not want her to dislike reading and to read what her friends were reading. At this point, I wasn't worried about her reading at a higher level.
I actually advocated to have her read lower books. I did not want her to dislike reading and to read what her friends were reading. At this point, I wasn't worried about her reading at a higher level.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/28/14 08:31 PM
Good luck with the reading program. I don't get the schools saying you can't read lower Lexile books - by 8th grade middle kid was at a graduate school Lexile level, so I don't know what she would have read if the school had limited her. There are plenty of HS/college level books that are worth reading and discussing.
Hopefully she likes LOTR. DH loved these, but middle kid and I could not slog through them. Both middle kid and I have read a lot more books than DH, and we both have read a wide variety of books, but just couldn't manage LOTR. I think you love it or you don't.
Hopefully she likes LOTR. DH loved these, but middle kid and I could not slog through them. Both middle kid and I have read a lot more books than DH, and we both have read a wide variety of books, but just couldn't manage LOTR. I think you love it or you don't.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/28/14 08:44 PM
Well, the school isn't limiting her really. In fact they are awesomely flexible. But it makes sense that a high school class may include material that's not appropriate for an 11 year old. If she joins the class and reads something else, she's still getting exposed to the discussion. This is stuff that she has strongly indicated she wants to stay well away from.
So this is the solution for now. I think my frustration is more that our situation is so different that it's a constant series of Hobson's choices without anyone to really talk to.
So this is the solution for now. I think my frustration is more that our situation is so different that it's a constant series of Hobson's choices without anyone to really talk to.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/28/14 09:42 PM
Sorry, I was responding to Ellipses' comment. Ivy, best of luck with whatever you do. I think I sometimes have trouble understanding what others are going through - when I mentioned that middle kid had a graduate Lexile level in 8th grade, I didn't mean to imply that she was the only kid in her school like that. She knows a number of other kids at or above her level.
The only reason we had our older two IQ tested was to get them into a combined English/Social Studies course (automatic entry if you are labeled gifted). This is the one class where the teachers can really meet the kid at his/her level. The teachers meet with each kid individually once each quarter to set writing goals. They focus on a particular aspect of their writing - could be different for every kid - and the teachers expect the writing to improve. Doesn't matter if the kid writes at grade level or at college level because each kid strives to meet their own goal. Sounds like more schools could benefit from a course like this.
The only reason we had our older two IQ tested was to get them into a combined English/Social Studies course (automatic entry if you are labeled gifted). This is the one class where the teachers can really meet the kid at his/her level. The teachers meet with each kid individually once each quarter to set writing goals. They focus on a particular aspect of their writing - could be different for every kid - and the teachers expect the writing to improve. Doesn't matter if the kid writes at grade level or at college level because each kid strives to meet their own goal. Sounds like more schools could benefit from a course like this.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/28/14 10:43 PM
Sorry for making confusion NotSoGIfted, I missed that previous post.
Whether they are few or many, students reading above grade level all have the same issue -- appropriate challenge coupled with content that's emotionally too mature. I admit when DD was younger I was dismissive of these concerns... now I have a better understanding of the kind of content that YA books have "nowadays" (get off my lawn, you kids).
The English/Social Studies class sounds amazing and I agree that more kids should have opportunities like that.
Whether they are few or many, students reading above grade level all have the same issue -- appropriate challenge coupled with content that's emotionally too mature. I admit when DD was younger I was dismissive of these concerns... now I have a better understanding of the kind of content that YA books have "nowadays" (get off my lawn, you kids).
The English/Social Studies class sounds amazing and I agree that more kids should have opportunities like that.
Re: Advocating backwards - just a bit of a vent - 07/28/14 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by NotSoGifted
Sorry, I was responding to Ellipses' comment. Ivy, best of luck with whatever you do. I think I sometimes have trouble understanding what others are going through - when I mentioned that middle kid had a graduate Lexile level in 8th grade, I didn't mean to imply that she was the only kid in her school like that. She knows a number of other kids at or above her level.
The only reason we had our older two IQ tested was to get them into a combined English/Social Studies course (automatic entry if you are labeled gifted). This is the one class where the teachers can really meet the kid at his/her level. The teachers meet with each kid individually once each quarter to set writing goals. They focus on a particular aspect of their writing - could be different for every kid - and the teachers expect the writing to improve. Doesn't matter if the kid writes at grade level or at college level because each kid strives to meet their own goal. Sounds like more schools could benefit from a course like this.
The only reason we had our older two IQ tested was to get them into a combined English/Social Studies course (automatic entry if you are labeled gifted). This is the one class where the teachers can really meet the kid at his/her level. The teachers meet with each kid individually once each quarter to set writing goals. They focus on a particular aspect of their writing - could be different for every kid - and the teachers expect the writing to improve. Doesn't matter if the kid writes at grade level or at college level because each kid strives to meet their own goal. Sounds like more schools could benefit from a course like this.
FTFY
